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Kazko's Wet Method of Intros Works on Darla and Dizzy
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Kazko's Wet Method of Intros Works on Darla and Dizzy
Behavior
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Jan 09 2011
08:19:42 AM
[post-publication editorial comment on this post: NOTICE! This "wet" method of introductions is controversial and has caused a great deal of concern in the glider community. At present, it's use is ON HOLD here after having used it twice. This was to save two individuals from a sad existence in which one was a severe over-groomer / SMer and another was frightened and stressed-out from being alone. This only after traditional methods failed. There are parts of the method that are being re-thought such as the use of vanilla extract for scent masking. A paper is being written which will be shared with veterinarians to weigh-in on the method after a two-month post-introduction waiting period so we have more time to observe the suggies. These introductions were extreme cases and therefore we do not recommend using this method as an everyday means to introduce gliders. Over the years we have published introduction guides that are more traditional and that's where you should start. Here is a link to a detailed Q&A on this method in which we qualify its use and the circumstances under which we felt it was appropriate for at-risk gliders:

http://www.myspace.com/luckyglider/blog/541846834

We are not going to be using the method until we get favorable input from veterinarians after the publication of the paper

Here is the GG link to more traditional introduction tips we have published:

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25918

post-publication editorial comment: Original text of the post follows...]

We are happy to report that two gliders - both of which had been bitten by other gliders and have recently healed - have been successfully joined. We used Kazko's "wet method" for the introduction - and like Clyde and Ginger from a week ago - it worked very well.

Dizzy and Darla have been together now for two nights. This morning, I checked their nesting box and they were both curled up around each other very peaceful-like - that is until I disturbed them. I checked them both for wounds and they both checked out OK.

Here at Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary we have joined or attempted to join many singles and small pairs over the years. We have dozens upon dozens of introductions under our collective belts. We've done everything from slow intros using the time-honored bedding swap, box swap and cage swap - all the way to hand-held intros in a common pouch while sleeping - to just going for it and plopping them in a dry bathtub together. It's all been hit and miss.

Our friend Terry who administers glider gossip and who has experience in rescue himself, has developed a methodology for joining strange gliders. He did this recently with a 4 + 3 combo of male gliders and it worked great. This lead to us trying it at LGRS.

First, let's address why it is important to try to join single gliders. The fact is most gliders have a tendency towards depression and even self-mutilation or over-grooming when they are alone. Most gliders do not like to be alone. So it is a good idea to try to join them if they are solo. We can tell you from experience that gliders live happier, healthier lives when they have company. We spend a lot of time trying to couple them for this reason. As you can imagine, a lot of gliders come in to the rescue solo, so the opportunity to pair them up is constant.

There is also the fact that gliders are often expelled from their colonies and picked on. When they are picked on and wounds happen as a result, they must be culled from the colony. Why? Because the wound will be over-groomed by all the members of the colony to the point where the wound becomes too big and the glider is in grave danger from blood loss and infection.

The method:

1. You get a small, hospital-sized cage. Real small, like not much bigger than a bread box. Clean it so it has no hint of any gliders' scent on it. It must be neutral.

2. Get the gliders you want to introduce completely wet. Be careful not to dunk them or hod their mouths under the water. You don't want to mistakenly drown them. Their fur repels water so you must get the water in the tap lukewarm and let it run over them while you hold them and rub the water into them. Dip some cotton balls or qtip into mouthwash and wipe their cloaca area with it. Now that they are completely soaked, put them in the tiny cage. DO NOT PUT ANYTHING (FOOD, POUCH, TOYS) IN THE CAGE. Let them sit in the cage for about an hour until they are exhausted from grooming themselves, running around, etc. They will look pitiful, but don't feel guilty.

[post-publication editorial comment: on the two occasions we used this method, we used non-alchol based mouthwash to no ill effect. However, in retrospect vanilla extract would have done nicely and if veterinarians agree we will use that in the future so long as we have consensus on the professionals]

3. Put a completely clean, scent-free pouch in the cage with some fleece in it. The gliders will most probably jump into it immediately to get out of the open air and the light. Shine a bright light on the cage so they will avoid the light and stay in the pouch. They should commence to groom each other and dry off in the pouch. Leave them in the pouch overnight. Do not feed them.

4. In the morning you can transfer them into a neutral, thoroughly cleaned cage. Put toys, pouch, box in the cage. You should be able to feed them at this point.

Why does it work?

Kazko's "Wet Method" works for a few different reasons:

1. Gliders hate being wet. Being wet causes them to *not* concentrate on who's the alpha, who's dominant, and who's going to show whom who's boss. All they want to do is get dry and find a warm place to crawl into.

2. Gliders go by scent. If they don't like the scent of another glider, they will fight. By getting them wet and further masking their scent with the mouthwash, their scents intermingle while they are getting dry and grooming one another.

3. Glider like to stay warm. Gliders will avoid fighting if they want to snuggle and stay warm.

4. Gliders are territorial. If they are in a small cage, it is not large enough to establish what part of the cage represents a territory. They are forced to interact.


What to watch out for.

Look, I think this method is just brilliant. Lord knows after all the years we have been rescuing these animals we have tried it all. It works. But it's not magic. If gliders start to fight you should be prepared to separate them immediately. Wear gloves to do this so you don't get bitten. You will know they are fighting if they ball-up and start landing bites on one another and start screaming.

If one chases the other around and growls and crabs, that is not fighting. That is just a show of dominance. Clyde and Ginger had a lot of this after their introduction. It means nothing so long as they are not actually biting one another.

If they are not sleeping together the first few nights don't worry. Eventually they will. Even if they don't the quality of life or your gliders is much higher being together even if they just tolerate each other. The alternative is complete isolation which can be a death sentence for some gliders that have a tendency toward over-grooming and self mutilation.

In summary, we recommend this method, but be ready to separate gliders that ball-up and bite each other. In addition you should check your gliders every evening and every morning for wounds. If you find wounds, put them in separate cages.

[post-publication editorial comment: Since the first publication of this blog, we have gotten a lot of negative commentary on this method and we are sensitive to that. We do not recommend this method as an everyday introduction method. We only used it in two extreme cases for at-risk gliders who's quality of life was threatened by being alone and for whom traditional methods did not work. We do not recommend this method unless those are the circumstances and you should consult your veterinarian about it to see if he or she supports the idea.]

Here are some photos of Darla and Dizzy:


Dizzy (background) and Darla (foreground) after a successful introduction using Kazko's wet method.


Dizzy chowing down. She's always the first one out to eat. This was her first trip out of the nesting pouch after her wet intro to Darla.



Darla peeking out of pouch after her introduction to Dizzy




Edited by - LuckyGlider on Jan 30 2011 03:48:30 PM
 Look what I found on Ebay
Behavior
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Jan 09 2011
08:28:38 AM
KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy Gliderpedia Editor Visit KuroNeko's Photo Album USA 1617 Posts
Ed, would you be so kind as to respond to this thread?

A member is currently being put down for using this method and I can't imagine how horrible it's making her feel.

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31164&whichpage=1
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Jan 09 2011
08:37:38 AM
bholland7 Face Hugger Visit bholland7's Photo Album bholland7's Journal USA 650 Posts
Woo Hoo another success story. I'm so happy that others are trying this and getting good results. I'm am being blasted on Facebook for posting on my intro's but I can tell you all I have no regrets and plan to use this again if I need to. I now have a very active and happy cage of 6. I plan to move them to the big cage later today. They are in the Med. cage now.
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Jan 09 2011
08:41:40 AM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KuroNeko</i>
<br />Ed, would you be so kind as to respond to this thread?

A member is currently being put down for using this method and I can't imagine how horrible it's making her feel.

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31164&whichpage=1
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


I responded.


Look, because the poor things look so pitiful when they are wet it is easy to cry "abuse." Everyone just needs to step back and make sure the motivation for using this method is pure. And to use it when it makes sense.

Our job and motivation at the rescue is to save lives. Joining gliders together - mostly single ones that is - saves lives. It's that simple.
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Jan 09 2011
08:43:13 AM
KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy Gliderpedia Editor Visit KuroNeko's Photo Album USA 1617 Posts
Thank you, Ed!
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Jan 09 2011
09:05:52 AM
bholland7 Face Hugger Visit bholland7's Photo Album bholland7's Journal USA 650 Posts
Thank you Ed. I look terrible too when I'm went.
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Jan 09 2011
09:45:40 AM
KatFarrell Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit KatFarrell's Photo Album KatFarrell's Journal USA 558 Posts
Thanks for that very thorough explination of this introduction method. In the near future I'll probably have to try it. Though for the sake of reducing my guilt, I'll try a less heart-wrenching method first. :D This definitly helped me feel more comfortable using this method if need me though.
Behavior
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Jan 09 2011
09:48:40 AM
KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy Gliderpedia Editor Visit KuroNeko's Photo Album USA 1617 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KatFarrell</i>
<br />Thanks for that very thorough explination of this introduction method. In the near future I'll probably have to try it. Though for the sake of reducing my guilt, I'll try a less heart-wrenching method first. :D This definitly helped me feel more comfortable using this method if need me though.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's his initial post:

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31028
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Jan 09 2011
09:55:55 AM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
I mentioned this in another post but everyone should know that a glider being wet for a little while is not that big of a deal. For example, we routinely get them wet during vet-ordered hydrotherapy. We also have to do it sometimes to get messy dried debris off of them so they don't groom too deeply.

Gliders do not suffer when they are wet. Or else they would be from the desert, not rainforests. They suffer when they are alone.
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Jan 09 2011
10:55:45 AM
KatFarrell Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit KatFarrell's Photo Album KatFarrell's Journal USA 558 Posts
Thanks Lucky. I've gently rinsed off Fritz twice when he wasn't able to clean himself (once when I first got him) & once when he first discovered the yummieness of honey, lol. Though I immediately dried him off.

What's vet-ordered hydrotherapy?
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Jan 09 2011
11:58:38 AM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
Hydrotherapy in the simplest terms is running water over an affected area. Hydrotherapy can be done with warm water. In some cases, hydrotherapy is done with sterile saline solution and introduced with a hermetically sealed plastic syringe.

Here are a few examples when we have, under orders from our vet(s), used hydrotherapy:

1. After wet/dry bandage treatment, we used hydrotherapy on the head and neck of Padme, a rescue who's mating wound was hidden and progressed to an abscess. That abscess when cleaned-out and drained by a vet caused the skin on top of her skull to slough off. After three weeks of wet/dry bandaging and daily changing of the gauze, we began hydrotherapy. Every day. It started with sterile saline and after three weeks, we were able to use tap water. Around the edges of the wound, the water was used to flush out debris and stimulate skin growth and granulation. It took 6 months for the skin to finally stretch and cover her skull. 6 months of hydrotherapy. That's not abuse. That's saving life. With water. Today, although single, she is a happy little glider and getting her head and body wet every day with water did not phase her. So no one can tell me getting a glider wet is abusive.

2. Eye infections. Hyrdotherapy is a common method to use when gliders' eyes become weepy or infected. It is crucial to keep the corners of their eyes clear of debris and puss if they are having eye problems. This is also true of post enucleation surgery when the eyeball has to be removed. One our our rescues Doc, from the dwarf colony, has had regular bouts with eye puss. Our vet has encouraged hydrotherapy and special eye drops for that. He gets all wet in the process. Another rescue, who has since been adopted, called Makudo had hydrotherapy with sterile water after his enucleation surgery.

3. Open mating wounds or over-grooming wounds. We have had occasion to use regular hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen or so gliders this past year who either came in with or received wounds from other members of their colonies. Depending on the size of the wound, vets may sometimes stitch them shut but with gliders, this often leads to abscesses which can be deadly. Many vets like the idea of the wound healing open. In this case, both honey treatment and hydrotherapy are common methods. Of course with the hydrotherapy they get soaking wet. Every other day for two or three weeks. But it's worth it because the wound heals well.

Gliders receiving this treatment for medical reasons recently were Dizzy, Ginger, Clyde, Darla, and Buttercup. All of them have been paired up with strange gliders after getting "kicked out" of their respective colonies - four of them with the "wet" method of introduction after other methods failed.

After having used hydrotherapy for medical reasons so successfully, under doctors' orders for so many times - it does not even occur to me that getting a glider wet is "abusive."

So now, there are four legit reasons to get them wet so far as I am concerned.
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Jan 09 2011
06:14:39 PM
viciousencounters Goofy Gorillatoes GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit viciousencounters's Photo Album viciousencounters's Journal NM, USA 2907 Posts
What does it mean when one glider runs head first towards the other then proceeds to slap and yell at the others face?
Behavior
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Jan 09 2011
09:11:26 PM
checkers Starting Member 2 Posts
Your introductions with this method are days old- what happens when the gliders go back to being their natural selves and the issues of why they wouldn't accept the other before the wet introduction? If you don't catch the situation in enough time, then someone will probably be seriously hurt.

Will you be so proud of the method then? Will you still support "forcing" gliders to live together?

No introduction is promised to last, but I'm sure a natural introduction where the gliders are allowed to choose their mates, will last longer than an introduction where they were "forced" to live with each other!
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Jan 09 2011
10:34:30 PM
1989jeremy Super Glider Visit 1989jeremy's Photo Album 1989jeremy's Journal USA 352 Posts
omg we have another one..
im glad it worked lucky. I also have done this and posted videos of it and i think it is very effective
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Jan 10 2011
07:09:45 AM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by checkers</i>
<br />Your introductions with this method are days old- what happens when the gliders go back to being their natural selves and the issues of why they wouldn't accept the other before the wet introduction? If you don't catch the situation in enough time, then someone will probably be seriously hurt.

Will you be so proud of the method then? Will you still support "forcing" gliders to live together?

No introduction is promised to last, but I'm sure a natural introduction where the gliders are allowed to choose their mates, will last longer than an introduction where they were "forced" to live with each other!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What happens? Well I would admit to everyone that it failed and I would separate them. Publishing our experiences with nutrition, health and behavior is what we have been doing for years. We are big enough to admit we are wrong when we are wrong. I share our experiences here at the rescue so everyone benefits and everyone learns.

And then you get to judge me each time. Bring it.
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Jan 10 2011
07:13:36 AM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by viciousencounters</i>
<br />What does it mean when one glider runs head first towards the other then proceeds to slap and yell at the others face?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It means the one doing the running and slapping is exerting alpha-like dominance to establish who's the boss. If the other who is receiving the slaps just allows it, that one is the submissive one. If they fight as a result of the provocation, the fight will conclude with a "winner" who gets to be the dominant one. Trouble is, that fighting can end up in death or maiming of one or both of the gliders. That's why this "wet" method, in some circumstances can be a Godsend. That is to say their temporary wetness removes some of the alpha behavior and scent-based behavior long enough to see if they can get along.
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Jan 30 2011
06:27:11 PM
Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector Visit Omis n Kais g-ma's Photo Album TX, USA 7524 Posts
That makes alot of sense. I see nothing wrong with it if the one administering it isn't trying to drown them or knows what they are doing. But definitely think a newbie should not attempt it. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LuckyGlider</i>
<br />I mentioned this in another post but everyone should know that a glider being wet for a little while is not that big of a deal. For example, we routinely get them wet during vet-ordered hydrotherapy. We also have to do it sometimes to get messy dried debris off of them so they don't groom too deeply.

Gliders do not suffer when they are wet. Or else they would be from the desert, not rainforests. They suffer when they are alone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
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Jan 31 2011
02:06:40 PM
Love2Read Joey 41 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LuckyGlider</i>
Dip some cotton balls or qtip into mouthwash and wipe their cloaca area with it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mind explaining the purpose of this?...I don't know about you, but I certainly would NOT want mouthwash put on my privates! Wouldn't that hurt?!
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Jan 31 2011
02:25:18 PM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Love2Read</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LuckyGlider</i>
Dip some cotton balls or qtip into mouthwash and wipe their cloaca area with it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mind explaining the purpose of this?...I don't know about you, but I certainly would NOT want mouthwash put on my privates! Wouldn't that hurt?!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Whats the purpose of keeping an animal in a cage?Neutering hurts too!
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Jan 31 2011
02:58:16 PM
AngieH Face Hugger GliderMap Visit AngieH's Photo Album 934 Posts
Ed and Gail came to stay with us a few years ago and I got to know them quite them well. I love them, they are good honest people who spend thier time and money caring for those gliders no one else wants or cares for. I see how much they love all animals, not just the gliders. Ed is a gentle man, he wouldn't ever hurt any animal! Ed is SMART, he has a brian and a heart. I would trust him with any of my glider and that says alot right there, I can't say that about many people.
I like data, information and learing, how do we learn if we can't keep our minds open just a little bit.
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Jan 31 2011
03:20:52 PM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3479 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Catman</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Love2Read</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LuckyGlider</i>
Dip some cotton balls or qtip into mouthwash and wipe their cloaca area with it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mind explaining the purpose of this?...I don't know about you, but I certainly would NOT want mouthwash put on my privates! Wouldn't that hurt?!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Whats the purpose of keeping an animal in a cage?Neutering hurts too!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Neutering - done by a licensed professional - is not painful. The gliders are on pain meds throughout the procedure and after.

Since we chose to keep animals in a cage - why torture them with painful mouthwash? You also have animals in cages, Scott - just because they live in cages, does that mean that any pain you inflict on them is alright?

Your logic is severely flawed here.
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Jan 31 2011
03:46:47 PM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Love2Read</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LuckyGlider</i>
Dip some cotton balls or qtip into mouthwash and wipe their cloaca area with it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mind explaining the purpose of this?...I don't know about you, but I certainly would NOT want mouthwash put on my privates! Wouldn't that hurt?!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is really a very good question that many people have asked over the past few weeks. Many. and we have struggled with this based on all the feedback we have gotten. OK, first the two times we tried this we did not use alcohol-based mouthwash. We used the non-stingy kind. The *purpose* of it is to mask scent because a lot of fights start over scent during introductions. Them being wet seems to move their attention towards grooming each other and not being dominant. Scent-masking further moves them away from scent as a trigger to fight (if they don't like the scent of the other glider).

That said, these gliders did *not* act adversely or show any discomfort with the swabbing. BUT WE ARE COMPLETELY OPEN to changing that to a less controversial but effective scent-masker. That is, if we ever use the method again which I have taken pains in the edits on the first part of this thread to say are on hold.

Some caring souls have made many suggestions to use an alternate substances. For example a number of people have said vanilla extract may be more suitable. I will be putting that suggestion, amongst others in the paper we are writing up for veterinarians.

If you are interested in reading the Q&A, which has many more details on our motivation in using this method for at-risk gliders, please do so here:

http://www.myspace.com/luckyglider/blog/541846834

We are not going to continue use of the method until we get favorable input from veterinarians after the publication of the paper.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by valkyriemome</i>
....Since we chose to keep animals in a cage - why torture them with painful mouthwash? .....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alden I think I have established that we did not use "painful" mouthwash but the non-alcohol kind. And I have explained that based on everyone's input that we are recommending an alternative scent-masker. Like maybe vanilla. So I am on record as saying we are open to using something different and your point and the point of so many others has been and is being respected and taken with all humility.

I have been taken to task over this controversial method for having the "sense" and the care to be held to a higher standard. And that, with all humility, is what being transparent and open in our publications is all about.

That is being held accountable to a higher standard when your peers weigh in on everything you do because you have the mission to publish it all in the hopes we can improve the lives and the quality of life of these animals. Have we made some mis-steps over the years? Probably. Have people chimed in and criticized our methods over the years? YOu betcha. But that does not deter our openness or transparency. We do that with diet, with behavior, medical procedures, and yes - for years on introductions.

Now we are on record as going a step further and publishing a formal paper on this whole thing and sending it out to vets for their formal input. And we intend to publish what they say.

That's called transparency. I am not sweeping this under the rug. We are learning together.

I am saddened only by the fact so many are polarized over the subject. But I am uplifted by the overall improved quality of life these few at-risk gliders have so far benefited from. OK, so it's all on hold for now. Let us see what different vets have to say after the paper is sent to them.





Edited by - LuckyGlider on Jan 31 2011 04:09:12 PM
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Jan 31 2011
04:49:40 PM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3479 Posts
I spent week before last helping on a railroad that included a glider who was in an ecollar due to SMing.

The vet sent along his treatment for the recently-stitched wound. The treatment he referred to as "oral rinse." Upon closer inspection, it turned out to be a moutwash with 11% alcohol. ELEVEN PERCENT. On a WOUND! yeah - I was really not amused, and I've let it be known that the vet in question shouldn't be seeing gliders any more.

So - my response to "painful mouthwash" was not necessarily in direct response to what you did, Ed. Although I'm glad that you used the alcohol-free kind. I always suspected you have a brain!
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Jan 31 2011
04:52:11 PM
waterburyk9 Super Glider Visit waterburyk9's Photo Album 297 Posts
I'm not sold on the vanilla- I just checked the bottle in the kitchen and it is 10% alcohol by volume. I'm not sure if the fake stuff has alcohol in it at all.

I would think that the non-alcohol mouthwash might be the way to go.

Good luck with the paper and joining those poor lonely gliders- keep up the good work.
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Jan 31 2011
05:16:27 PM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
valkyriemome, you can honestly say that a <b>surgery</b> that removes the testicles of an animal isn't painful? When did you have yours removed?
Your logic is severely flawed here.

I would soak my "privates" in a glass of mouthwash for days.... before I would even think of having a Dr. cut them off!

It's mouthwash.Tested on thousands and thousands of animals, so is your toothpaste,deodorants, dish soaps.... and makeup!! I bet it <u>never</u> killed or injured an animal after 1-2 applications.

Yes, I do have animals in cages and you know that Alden , and you know I think it's cruel.I don't breed them! That's the ultimate in cruel IMO, breed another life for the sole purpose of entertainment or money<b></b><b></b>.

Edited by - Catman on Jan 31 2011 05:22:16 PM
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Jan 31 2011
07:10:04 PM
Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector Visit Omis n Kais g-ma's Photo Album TX, USA 7524 Posts
Good God, not this discussion again. Same rant different target. BTW, Whats with the mouthwash thing?
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Jan 31 2011
07:11:13 PM
Amy1706 Super Glider Visit Amy1706's Photo Album Amy1706's Journal USA 252 Posts
In Ed's defence He knows what he is doing, this man has more knowledge then most of the people I have met on this board. He would never be cruel to an animal I mean come on now I would not do that kind of intro unless I had no other choice but if you read the reason's why he did it it makes sense 2 hours of their discomfort for a life time with a friend and not being lonely think about it, we preach how you should not have a lone glider then when he does what is best for those gliders or what we preach is better(not being alone) he gets attacked for it....does not make sense to me, we all have different ways of doing things we should do what works for our gliders and not be attacked for doing it. we are all here for our love for sugar gliders well that is why I am here.....why are you here?
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Jan 31 2011
08:22:49 PM
Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector Visit Omis n Kais g-ma's Photo Album TX, USA 7524 Posts
He's not the one I was referring to. I'm here to keep learning. I never said wet intros were bad. I just said they should never ever be performed by a newbie. I would never second guess someone who has years of experience and runs a rescue. Thats why I am here. I was referring to catmans post about the cage thing. A similar thread got very heated a couple of weeks ago and it spun off this very topic.
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Jan 31 2011
08:28:49 PM
AngieH Face Hugger GliderMap Visit AngieH's Photo Album 934 Posts
I think we can all think of lots of other things to talk about :)
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Jan 31 2011
09:22:09 PM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma</i>
<br />He's not the one I was referring to. I'm here to keep learning. I never said wet intros were bad. I just said they should never ever be performed by a newbie. I would never second guess someone who has years of experience and runs a rescue. Thats why I am here. I was referring to catmans post about the cage thing. A similar thread got very heated a couple of weeks ago and it spun off this very topic.
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It's all relative. The ultimate cruelty to a wild or exotic animal is to kept it in a cage its whole life, it goes down from there. I have many many years of experience with exotic and wild animals too.I'm not selling anything or asking for donations. I don't think any newbie should even own a sugar glider, but after signing a "contract" and reading some information on sugar gliders, most breeders are happy to take a "newbies" cash. For what reason? For the GOOD of the animal?If you truly think the animal is happy to live with you ,keep the cage open and leave your windows open and see how many animals stick around.Its all for the animal right?

A day of discomfort is a small price to pay for a life time of "relative" happiness!

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Jan 31 2011
09:24:22 PM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3479 Posts
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AngieH</i>
<br />I think we can all think of lots of other things to talk about :)

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Kazko's Wet Method of Intros Works on Darla and Dizzy
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