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  |  Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
 United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 04:27:05 PM    |
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I've asked this on another forum so sorry if you read it twice but just thought the point of the post is worth noticing.
Does smoking cause cancer? The fact is, people have been know to die from cancer caused by smoking. BUT, not every person who smokes will die from cancer. Does that make it any less untrue??
So here goes,
Grapes cause renal failure in domestic animals. Some animals (including gliders) have died as a direct result of eating grapes, some haven't. Does that make the statement untrue?
Feeding hard food (pellets or kibble) is bad for your glider. Yes, some gliders have died from being fed a pelleted diet, some have thrived on being fed kibble as part of a balanced diet. So which is it?
Rep-Cal that includes Vitamin D is dangerous to Sugar Gliders as the presence of Vitamin D leads to a risk of a toxic overdose, or the overdose of calcium. This can be fatal to some Sugar Gliders, but many have been known to suffer no effects from it. So does it make the statement untrue??
These are just a few off the top of my head but my point is, there are SO many things that can be fatal for one individual but have no effect on the other. I think this is where we, as owners, find most of our disagrements.
I hope people understand the meaning behind this x
Edited by - Helen88uk on Apr 13 2012 04:28:10 PM
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 | mhall10
Joey
40 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 04:33:47 PM  |
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..........
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 04:35:42 PM |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mhall10</i>
<br />..........
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Guess you're not one of them lol
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| mhall10
Joey
40 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 04:38:54 PM |
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sorry i didnt get past the smoking part lol nvm i see your point
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| jakeelwood
Super Glider
NJ, USA
396 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 04:45:47 PM |
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Smoking doesn't cause cancer. Cancer is in everyone's body but it could be dormant. Smoking can help cancer become active. This is why some people die from Lung Cancer and never smoked a cig in their life. Next, pellet diet as the only source of food for a glider is just unhealthy and dangerous. That doesn't mean that offering them pellet food in their cage along with a balanced diet keeping a 2:1 ratio isn't necessarily a bad thing. It would all depend on the pellets on question. Next, grapes and gliders isn't a proven or unproven thing. Being we are in limbo with this topic most people would just stay away because why take the chance.
Basically, I understand what you are saying. If it isn't a fact then there is room for conversation and disagreement. But with that said, acting in a irresponsible manner with your gliders due to open discussions should not be tolerated. Example is heat lamps and heat rocks. Heat is fine for the gliders but they can chew on cords and electrocute themselves. So should we accept people putting heat rocks in a glider cage? The community might disagree on topics but we all ( and I truly hope so) love our pets and want the best for them. So attacking a person for feeding grapes to a glider might be wrong but it would be done with the interest of the glider in mind not the human.
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 04:51:37 PM |
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Attacking a person, whether in the best interest of the glider or not, isn't likely to help anybody. I think the important thing to realise is a lot of things glider related aren't just black and white. I see a lot of grey too. And it wouldn't suprise me in 10 years time if a lot of things we preach as 'fact' turn out to be untrue!x
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| fox0r
Face Hugger
 USA
496 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:01:08 PM |
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I don't get the point of this at all. It's just going to cause a lot of debate. It's like saying I stabbed myself with a pencil. Does that make pencils bad?
And not ALL pellets/kibble are bad for gliders. Feeding a PELLET-ONLY diet is what is bad. Feeding a quality dry food as part of or in addition to a nectar-type diet is just fine.
I've also heard of a LOT of people feeding grapes, and personally haven't heard of any gliders dying from them.
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| TJones09
Goofy Gorillatoes
2001 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:11:52 PM |
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Why is there even a need for attacking someone for something that one may disagree with? If someone knows something is seriously wrong or just highly not recommended they could just as easily make a suggestion or give their advise in a friendly and caring manner.
Most people join forums that they find some or much common ground, here we all love and care for sugar gliders. We all want to provide the best for our beloved pets and learn as much about them and the care of them as well as share what we have learned.
My attitude:
Towards smoking vs not smoking is that there is an apparent link to smoking, if not causing cancer is more or less increasing your odds to getting/developing cancer. It's best to not risk it.
Towards feeding grapes to gliders, my attitude is the same, why risk it? Although there is no real evidence as of yet that proves this, I don't recommend it and will mention the possibility that it may not be good for them.
As far as other things listed above, I feel anyone can find many things to debate on, but should be respectful and be doing it to benefit other's and their gliders.
And lets remember, we go by what we know today, and as mentioned, yes knowledge is ever-growing, and views & perspectives can change, as they already have.
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| Melrose Academy
Joey
37 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:18:37 PM |
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I am using the SunCoast SG vitamin mix (1 part vionate, 1 part re-cal, 2 parts possum milk). I sprinkle it on their food. I was worried about that after reading old posts, but SC raises a lot of gliders, and owners seem pretty happy with them. Now, I'm worried again.
I have known more people who have not smoked and developed lung cancer than I have known who have smoked and developed lung cancer. However, I don't see any point in taking risks when the chances increase by engaging in an activity whose benefits, if any, are dubious.
M-
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| kyro298
Glider Sprinkles
  CO, USA
15262 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:41:39 PM |
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I see what you're saying and it makes sense. I do have a side question though...
The "grape debate" has been around for years and years. I don't personally feed them to my gliders, even. However, I have yet to see where any have directly died because of them. Is there documentation somewhere? I'd love, love, love to see that.
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| lilangels
Super Glider
315 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:42:44 PM |
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I think Helen's post was more about pointing out how different people see different choices and that we should all keep that in mind when responding to someone asking about something we may not agree with. We all love our gliders very very much or we wouldn't be here. Yet we all choose different ways of caring for our gliders. Who are we to judge what may be right or wrong for someone else's gliders.
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| fox0r
Face Hugger
USA
496 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:49:45 PM |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Feeding hard food (pellets or kibble) is bad for your glider. Yes, some gliders have died from being fed a pelleted diet, some have thrived on being fed kibble as part of a balanced diet. So which is it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The other 4 days (alternate) I feed 5 pieces of high quality kibble per glider. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm a bit confused. OP, you said pellets/kibble are bad, but you feed them?
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| kyro298
Glider Sprinkles
CO, USA
15262 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:53:10 PM |
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I think she was using that as an example of one of the common arguments.
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| suppressedtearz
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1066 Posts
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Apr 13 2012 : 05:53:30 PM |
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And what is high quality kibble to you?
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| MamaBird
Face Hugger
USA
404 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 01:16:41 PM |
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I get your point Helen, and this is why I rarely post on here. I love to read the posts, and sometimes comment, but that's about it so far. People (in general) can be so quick to be flippant or snarky and that's not what I was looking for in a forum of adults interested in having happy, healthy gliders.
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| sugie bandit
Super Glider
252 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 01:32:23 PM |
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I think everyone, and every creature, is predisposed to certain illness and disease. Then along comes the 'trigger', and one has cancer.
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 01:57:33 PM |
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I understand that. I'm fully aware that everybody is born with inactive cancer cells, smkoing is a trigger but not everybody who smokes will die from cancer.
But that isn't really what I was getting at. The same point can be true and false at the same time. It depends on the individual. What can kill one individual may have no effect on the other.
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| mistresslynn
Super Glider
233 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 02:14:07 PM |
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I personally would like to believe that everyone is taking care of there pet to the best of their ability and knowledge with only the best intentions. I read alot of things on here as well and in all honesty was very disapointed in this forum. I joined to learn as much as possible about gliders as well as conecting with mature people who own gliders as well. I dont know everything and im always willing to learn but i do not like the attitudes you come across this forum of" My way or the highway." U dont believe there is one way to do things. There are many ways to do things and many views on how to do it. If your gliders are happy and healthy who cares what your feeding them or doing with them its obviously working. Gliders just like people are all different. I welcome any advise or extra knowledge i can get but in the end its my judgement and my personal research thats going to count. People shouldnt be judged for asking questions or doing something different.
Here is my question...How many people have been wanting to ask an important question and decided not to because of this kind of judgement?
Next question...How many gliders have suffered because of this?
Huge difference in sharing knowledge, support, and understanding rather than judgement and rudeness.
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| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 02:27:32 PM |
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I think it all boils down to how much risk are you (or anyone) willing to assume on behalf of their gliders. For me, if I have seen/heard/read about any particular risk...I just don't do it. It's not worth it to me.
I look at it like this...several people in my family are allergic to a certain antibiotic. Some of us can take it, some can't. My 2nd son got sick - they gave him this antibiotic because there was no reason to think "he" would be affected. He had a severe reaction and had to be hospitalized. It affected him for well over a month. His younger brother has never had a reaction but I now have ALL of my children listed as allergic unless life or death. Is my youngest son allergic? Probably not. Do I want to risk it to find out? ABSOLUTELY not. I have other options with less risk. So I opt for those.
So, yeah it's not good fact found firm science BUT, I feel much better about the decision knowing there are still just as effective options so I have choices and can avoid that medicine as I choose. I kind of apply this to everything. Are my gliders going to die without grapes? Nope. Are there other tasty options? Yep. Is there a "potential" risk if I feed them? Yep. Do I want to risk it? Nope.
Same thing with heat. Do they have another...safer source of heat (IF they needed it)? Yep. Do I HAVE to do a heat rock? Nope. Is there a risk? Yep. So, I don't use heat rocks. I have better/safer options SHOULD I ever need them.
Pellets - do I have other options I prefer? Yep. So I feed them. Rep Cal -do I have a safer option with no reasonable risk? Yep...so I use that instead.
Be resourceful folks. Any one of these concerns has an alternative. I realize these were just examples. But just about EVERY scenario you are presented with will have an alternative to explore that will help you sleep easier at night. There are just not too many things that are SO awesome, I assume an unneeded risk.
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| Althalus
Glider
116 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 02:46:20 PM |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jakeelwood</i>
<br />Smoking doesn't cause cancer. Cancer is in everyone's body but it could be dormant. Smoking can help cancer become active.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Jake... This is so wrong in so many ways. Smoking does indeed <b>cause</b> a mutation in the DNA of lung cells exposed to toxins produced from tobacco smoke. It does cause cancer. The fact that our basal body cells have the ability to create other cells, does not mean we have the <b>cancer inside us already</b>. Cancer comes about when the removal of the regulating gene factors that cause unregulated cell growth and division. Some have the ability to break off and attach elsewhere in the body known as metastasis. These metastatic cancers are usually the ones that cause death,especially if the cancer cells can infect other nearby cells.
On the point of this conundrum here:
All cancers are tumors, yet not all tumors are cancer. Does this clarify? If not, then what you are saying is somethings have potential for both good an bad and chastising someone for a non-mistake is never beneficial. People, please be kind to one another, otherwise you are just being a douche  . lol
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| suggielover3
Joey
18 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 03:37:34 PM |
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Um.........what was the point??????????? U asked about if smoking causes cancer and u jumpped from one question to another.So my answer to ur first question would be absolutely YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 03:54:49 PM |
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The OP wasn't a question, and I wasn't looking for an answer. It was saying that some things can be right and wrong at the same time. And just to make us think a little
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| shadow
Goofy Gorillatoes
MO, USA
2332 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 04:05:32 PM |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Helen88uk</i>
<br />The OP wasn't a question, and I wasn't looking for an answer. It was saying that some things can be right and wrong at the same time. And just to make us think a little
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
i think the title is what is confusing people well not confusing but making them really focus on that question. maybe it would have been better to make the title more general. people are thinking about it but they are posting what they think. i always rather be safe then sorry 
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 04:22:17 PM |
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I just thought that the title was the best example for my point lol thats all, wish I hadn't bothered ... this topic seems to have set off a few squabbles in itself lol *sigh*
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| kyro298
Glider Sprinkles
CO, USA
15262 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 04:35:31 PM |
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Either I am completely misunderstanding this entire thread or others are. Who's attacking anyone and how did it turn into anything about this forum? Helen, your point was fine. I think sometimes people skim instead of actually reading everything being said. Either that, or I'M losing my mind, which I suppose is entirely possible.
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| BookGoddes
Face Hugger
482 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 04:41:17 PM |
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But why risk any of those things in the first place?
Just because smoking hasn't killed someone in the first year does not mean they will not get cancer in 10 years.
Just because grapes have not killed and of your (my) gliders yet does not mean they never will.
(and I didn't know about the grape thing so thank you dearly, I need to look it up!)
Why risk it when there are other options? Pellets for gliders make zero sense to me. There are options so much closer to natural for them, why risk the overly processed crap? For me it is like the difference between a TV dinner and a home cooked meal, sure the TV dinner will not kill you but is it really good for you? There is better so why not go with better?
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| suggielover3
Joey
18 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 04:50:03 PM |
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well the title cought me off gaurd
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1436 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 05:15:40 PM |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kyro298</i>
<br />Either I am completely misunderstanding this entire thread or others are. Who's attacking anyone and how did it turn into anything about this forum? Helen, your point was fine. I think sometimes people skim instead of actually reading everything being said. Either that, or I'M losing my mind, which I suppose is entirely possible.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm finding it hard to keep track on this topic now! Lol, I think a lot of people have missed the point, as I said, it wasn't a question, nor did the OP need answering, I was just trying to explain how different opinions can be right at the same time.
I think a few just saw the smoking comment and skimmed the rest.
And as a side note, one of my friends gliders died as a direct result of eating grapes (or so the vet confirmed), so SHE can say that grapes can be fatal to gliders. But some people have fed them for years and had no issue. So THEY can say grapes have no effect on gliders. Are either of them wrong? That is what the 'moral' of the post was, that sometimes opposites can both be right.
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| Althalus
Glider
116 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 07:04:05 PM |
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I have fed my gliders grapes a few times. They are still fantastically alive. I am sorry about your loss. And grapes must be washed though and I only feed organic grapes grown here in the US (bc of availability). And it is more a treat than a regular item for sure. But Helen, unfortunately nothing in life is ever going to be cut and dry. There are so many good and beneficial things that can harm. And many harmful things that can benefit. it all depends on one's perspective or current problem being fixed/solved. Hence Xanex's over prescribed state in the Rx generation.
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| mistresslynn
Super Glider
233 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 07:10:01 PM |
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How is it natural to blend there food and why do people do it?
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| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
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Apr 14 2012 : 07:10:49 PM |
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