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DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy   USA 1244 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
Well... I suppose there's at least enough evidence here to start thinking about more alternatives. I still think I /might/ be right about this, but I can concede that it's not necessarily a die to roll on purpose.
How's this for a plan:
Step 1. Integrate the current gliders.
Step 2. Ren mates with one or more of the gliders.
Step 3. When the first set of new joeys reaches 3 months of age, neuter Ren. Give away all male joeys, keep all female joeys.
Step 4. Obtain a new, unrelated, unneutered male joey - perhaps in trade for one of mine? - and integrate it into the colony.
Step 5. Continue to ensure that whenever new joeys reach weaning age, the current unneutered male is neutered and replaced with an unrelated, unneutered male until my glider population reaches the desired level.
That should prevent even one layer of inbreeding unless, by chance of bad luck, the unneutered male I bring in comes from the same stock as one I give away or one of the originals.
The only downside is the big tremendous pain in the ass associated with integrating the new unneutered males... but I suppose I could live with that, if, y'know... some of the tricks I'm learning to put these five together actually work. :)
Sweeeeet GEEBUS! I see a EUREKA on your rolling die statement above! YES! YES! and YES!!!!!!!! No matter who is right or wrong, there is risk potential and why take it, right? Now, I need to step away from the computer for a little bit because I just spent upwards of 2.5 hours reading about the effects of inbreeding with pictures. My head is all wonky and full of YUCK. I will be back on later to read about your Steps you have listed for options and see where I might be able to add value. Thank you for conceding on this point. Sincerely. And my "other" medical post was being typed while you were responding. So, I hadn't seen your new response when I posted it. Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts Jerry, problem with step 3 is that Ren will more than likely impregnate these females more than once. Remember, gliders can get pregnant again even with a joey in pouch. It'll just be one vicious circle and a never ending one at that. How will you keep Ren from mating will all the females over and over. Okay, heres my proposal... step #1 Let Ren mate with 1 female and immediately neuter him after. If its a male, neuter it as soon as you can to eliminate inbreeding. step#2 Your going to need to integrate your gliders all together so he can help mom with the joey. step #3 voila! no extra joeys hanging around and no worries Ren or the other males will breed with their family members. step #4 get a male glider or two if you can from wherever preferably one breeder so they'll be together and not lonely. Get them neutered during quarantine, then they are good to go once quarantine is over and vet checks are complete. step #5 finish out with how ever many gliders you want following the same step #4. Or just get more females. Nobody to fix there. Good luck buddy. Jerrycnh Glider  119 Posts Omi and Angel: I don't see the problem with your statements as they relate to the dangers of INBREEDING. All four females are unrelated to the male - if he impregnates all four, multiple times, over a three month period, then all the joeys would be NOT inbred, right? So... mission accomplished. With the BONUS that I might get to my goal number, 15, without ever having to add a second unrelated, unneutered male glider. Of course, raising 10+ joeys in one sitting will present a whole host of other challenges, I'm sure, but inbreeding won't be one of them. fazioli Face Hugger 906 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
quote:
Originally posted by fazioli
You don't know for sure that they are not related. If you have no lineage on the gliders, then for all you know, they could be brothers and sisters. That is the problem with breeding gliders with no lineage. Even if say one person gets a glider in Arizona and another person purchases a glider say in Florida, they still could be related somehow. PP are mill breeders and are not the least bit concerned if they are selling inbred gliders or not.
Don't even bother wasting your breath trying to tell me that playing those odds isn't worth the risk, HELL will freeze over before I concede /that/ point. The odds against it are ridiculous.
Seriously?! So, you think since you got gliders off of Craigslist, bought one from PP, that they aren't related? Most gliders on Craigslist are PP gliders, impulse buys, that people no longer want. So, the odds of them being inbred and possibly related are not so far fetched. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Candy
There is no point in continuing to present him with facts.[/b]
Fact: "a truth verifiable from experience or observation". Opinion: "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." Don't presume that you have facts, because you, Candy, have never actually tried doing it my way. What you have are opinions, and when I'm posting about my happy and healthy gliders on here five years from now, we'll know exactly what your opinions were worth. renee14150 Fuzzy Wuzzy 1850 Posts Again - gotta be said "WOW: - Jerry - you are an Ahole!! Period. You come back to people's comments with this arrogance that is truly jaw dropping. Some of us have been on these forums for years - not months - we've seen people come thru here with all kinds of problems, some being a direct result of inbreeding. You came here to ask questions because some of these people do have more experience than your or I in terms of glider ownership (yes?) - don't those people deserve at least a little respect based on their direct experiences? "a truth verifiable from experience" You have a different philosophy - we get it - some have even tried to put their own personal feelings aside to help and just chalk it up to the fact that you see things differently. Get over your god complex. Stop replying like an Ahole! It's unnecessary. check yourself. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by renee14150
Again - gotta be said "WOW: - Jerry - you are an Ahole!! Period. You come back to people's comments with this arrogance that is truly jaw dropping.
Some of us have been on these forums for years - not months - we've seen people come thru here with all kinds of problems, some being a direct result of inbreeding.
You came here to ask questions because some of these people do have more experience than your or I in terms of glider ownership (yes?) - don't those people deserve at least a little respect based on their direct experiences? "a truth verifiable from experience"
You have a different philosophy - we get it - some have even tried to put their own personal feelings aside to help and just chalk it up to the fact that you see things differently. Get over your god complex. Stop replying like an Ahole! It's unnecessary. check yourself.
You're right - I come BACK to people's comments in an aggressive manner. Because you people don't sugar coat any of your opinions, you go right for the throat, like true bullies, and since bullies only respond to strength, my responses carry that strength forward. If people are diplomatic with me, I'll be diplomatic with them. When people use cruder instruments, and I get tired of playing the diplomat, then I respond in kind. You will in no way, at no time, find an instance in which I was rude /first/. And that, my dear, makes me JUSTIFIED and you guys the ones who need to "check yourselves". And obviously you haven't bothered reading the whole thread, so it bears repeating: I DID NOT COME HERE ASKING ABOUT ANYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH BREEDING. I am not rejecting advice I asked for. I am rejecting the unsolicited emotional pleas of a bunch of twits with no sense of perspective. Sugar gliders are not gods, they're just really cute rats, they don't need to be put on a freakin' pedestal and worshiped. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by angelmom
Off topic side note- your comment about Hitler made me cringe. That was such a stereo typical response from someone with laymen's knowledge of the Shoa. My historian side twists with sadness that so many people are flippant about the Shoa and Hitler's policies.
Well this isn't exactly the forum to light a candle and bow my head in reverence to the fallen while making the comparison. I'm not going to shy away from a legitimate comparison because the association might make someone squeamish, and the fact of the matter is that the fanaticism with which some of these people are mandating "genetic purity" for gliders DOES resonate with the concept of choosing the proper breeding stock to engineer a "master race" for humanity. And the comparison is SUPPOSED to invoke a cringe, because the entire point is that such meticulousness IS extreme. My intent, as unlikely as it is to work, is to shame some of these glider nazis (that is, by the way, exactly how I refer to this forum when talking about you guys to "regular" people - the glider nazis say this or that) into realizing that their viewpoints on the subject ARE too extreme to be considered rational. quote:
Originally posted by angelmom
Anyways, I wish you the best of luck with your gliders and hope that your children will be okay. I know how much it hurts to lose a child and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially if its preventable.
Yes, that not wearing seat belts disease is a killer. I have no idea how I've lived with it for all these years. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by renee14150
Where oh where did Candy, of all people use "crude instruments" to warrant a sarcastic response like that? No place - because she didn't. So my dear, you should slow down a little before you jump.
Her entire last post was an attack, from the sarcastic quote marks around "freedom" to her assertion that my actions are "without regard to the well being" of my gliders, to her insisting that her word is law and must be taken as "fact" (that's what set me off the most, hence my response to it), to her snide, pointed "prayers" for the safety of the poor kids without seat belts, and of course the assertion that I'm going to "do whatever I want no matter what anyone says", an assertion easily disproven right at the top of the page where I essentially say to DoubleBogey "OKAY, I'm convinced, how about this then". Her entire post, down to the last word, was designed as though she were the one sitting on her high horse disdaining the wailing of the irrelevant peasant, and affirm that the entire forum agrees with her and not with me - a fact which, by the way, is NOT true, as I've gotten 3 PMs from people /quietly/ supporting my viewpoints who don't want to risk the wrath of the rest of you by doing so openly. That's the enviornment you people create here - a groupthink mentality where people are AFRAID to voice a nondominant opinion because of how hard you all come down on anyone who does so. I saw the locked thread with the 13 year old who lost her glider and how all you people came down like the hand of god on her, and everyone made her age the issue, but all I could think was "How do these people think it's even okay to treat ADULTS this way?" You're fanatics, pure and simple, and guess what? I'm not afraid to stand up to it. I don't need to be "popular" here, as Jazz said, I don't post here often, because most of you are not the type of people I care to associate with on a regular basis. I come to get my information and get out, and not /dare/ try to help somebody else for fear that my advice will turn their thread into a flame war. quote:
You asked about merging gliders into one colony. The first thing to discuss is ALWAYS whether or not the males are neutered because it's in the best interest of the gliders and the owner. Should we not discuss it so that an owner wakes up to a dead glider one morning because they fought for dominance? come on! So speaking of unneutered males will logically lead to a breeding conversation - that's how it goes. It's called a conversation.
True, discussions roam. But I'm being criticized for "coming here for advice and then not listening to anyone". Ignoring the fact that that's just not true on it's face, my point is that I didn't ask for the advice that I'm rejecting. If I ask someone what the best octane rating for gasoline is, I'm not obliged to agree with their every word on the virtues of four-wheel drive; that may be relevant to the discussion, but it's beyond the scope of my question. quote:
You just don't have to be so sarcastic - you said it yourself, you know your views are different than the majority - so why attack people who have not attacked you?
I still maintain that I haven't. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by ResaJane
I am I guess what y'all would call a newbie....but I have seen my share of members being out of line but no where in this thread was Candy out of line...she spoke the TRUTH based on your prior words. I know what it feels like to be bullied and to have to stand up and defend myself but honestly, you have a very twisted, inhumane view which most of us do not share. Expect to get the same reactions as you have received in this thread. Just as you refuse to get your head out of your butt, we refuse to back down.
Perhaps people should not respond to his requests for advice unless thru pm?
Resa
Places in your post where /you/ were out of line: "TRUTH" (capitalizing it is the equivalent of shouting it at me, and asserting that you know everything 100% for sure is inappropriate) "based on your prior words" (an attack to mean I brought this on myself) "you have a very twisted, inhumane view" (ad hominem abusive argument) "most of us do not share" (false appeal to majority) "Perhaps people should not respond to his requests" (so now you're trying to organize a BOYCOTT of me? Who the hell are you to do that?) Based on that evidence, I assert that you're not necessarily the best judge of who is "out of line". And if you want to defend Candy so much, perhaps you'd like to not just declare her right (as if your opinion on the subject were the word of Law) but actually address the specific examples I cited about her post? They're not hard to find, you only have to scroll up a bit. That's how debate works, y'know, you cite /examples/ to prove your points. Otherwise you're just ranting. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by dooney
yeah I don't sugar coat things....and I HATE it when people do it to me. Just say what you need to say and get it over with. Don't worry about hurting my feeling because they don't get hurt that easy....I am a big girl..and if I were to come on a forum and ask questions and make comments I am also prepared for those who disagree and tell me their oppinion. It's called life honey...and as you said life is tough...
so put on the big boy panties if you want to play witht he adults!
Which I have. But again, as seems to be tradition around here, you're taking the point out of context. I was addressing Renee's comments that I "respond aggressively" to the way people treat me around here. And the simple truth of the matter is that I do so because there's no sense of diplomacy around here. Here's an easy example, from the very beginning of this thread. Petluv15's second post, which is where things started to go downhill. What was said: "And this is not to mention the fact that despite the lies, you still went ahead and skipped quarantine and probably won't take any of them to the vet to screen for parasites which can and will bloom during stress and right now they're on stress overload - new home, new person, said person putting them in harms way near the cage of other gliders, said person thinking about using the wet method when they are happy as a pair, etc." The nicer way to put it: "It sounds like you're skipping quarantine. I wouldn't even advise having the cages in the same room for at least two more weeks. Also, you REALLY ought to take them to the vet. Stress in a glider causes any dormant parasites to bloom and become active, and they're on stress overload right now - new person, new home, scent of other gliders (which is another reason for the quarantine, let them get adjusted to just a few new things at a time instead of throwing everything at them at once)... and the wet method is really just going to stress them out more, if you use it. I personally would leave them as two colonies, they're obviously happy as a pair." What was said: "I think its downright PATHETIC to use wet methods to force an intro when its only going to lead to lots of joeys dying - trios are hard enough with joey snatching/cannabalization that many breeders will only stick with breeding pair. Now you want to try breeding FOUR females to one male and chances are the poor females will have their joeys pulled and killed over and over. Not to mention the stress of intro'ing them that way. The wet method was used for LONE gliders who needed a cage mate(over grooming, stressed, etc.) but wouldn't accept one easily - it is NOT because you want to merge a pair with a trio to have 4 breeding females..." The nicer way to put it: "I can't stress enough that the wet method isn't the best idea, ESPECIALLY when there's an intact male in the mix. The adjustment period is going to be killer and any joeys born during that period are probably going to be attacked by the other group. The only time I'd ever consider the wet method is for lone gliders who really need a companion and are already showing signs of depression/SM..." ========================== Do you see the difference? Her words aren't designed to help, they put me on the defensive. Of COURSE I respond by lashing back. This isn't a chat room or a live conversation, there's no excuse for instigating emotional outbursts, ESPECIALLY here. There's a preview button for a reason. There's the ability to walk away and come back and think about how to word things so that you actually make your POINT instead of letting fury and rage dictate your words. renee14150 Fuzzy Wuzzy 1850 Posts This will be my last post on this thread. In my opinion you misinterepted petluv's post completely. I don't see anything at all that is attacking in nature. She said "despite the lies" - not calling you a liar, just repeating what you said about the previous owner lying about their age. she said the wet method itself was pathetic - not you. I think it is sometimes difficult when reading a post/email/text to determine the emotion behind the words and sometimes we put our own spin it. I know my daughter will read a txt outloud to me with a nasty voice influctuation and I always ask her "how do you know it was written that way??". That is all. I'm out.
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