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Jerrycnh Glider    119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by kyro298
Well, Jerry, I do have to give you kudos for defending and/or responding to every post! You have more patience than me.
What everyone seems to be missing is that even though he doesn't appeal to the majority or plan to change his way of thinking just because someone says so, he does listen to reason and facts. If you want to just post to tell him how horrible he is, don't expect him to apologize or change how he does anything! As much as I love this forum and *most* of the people on it, some of you just don't understand that there are actually people that will respect and consider proven information. You just aren't always used to people challenging what you give as advice. My point is, unless you have something of value to input, you are probably wasting time you'll never get back.
I'm not siding with anyone here, just pointing out the obvious. It would just be nice if this thread didn't get junked up with rant posts so that the important and factual information could actually stand out and maybe help someone else in the future.
Thank you. Later today I'll try to edit the original post with a summary of things learned (including the points I disagree with) so that people will have the useful stuff up front where it's needed and they don't have to TL;DR the thread. ;) I would have at least hoped that restating the opposing viewpoints in my own words would make it clear that I understood them. Not to mention that I actually DID change my mind about something in this thread - but I don't get any kudos for that, apparently. :/ quote:
In my opinion you misinterepted petluv's post completely. I don't see anything at all that is attacking in nature.
She said "despite the lies" - not calling you a liar, just repeating what you said about the previous owner lying about their age.
she said the wet method itself was pathetic - not you.
I think it is sometimes difficult when reading a post/email/text to determine the emotion behind the words and sometimes we put our own spin it. I know my daughter will read a txt outloud to me with a nasty voice influctuation and I always ask her "how do you know it was written that way??".
THANK you for at least saying "in my opinion". I appreciate that; it's progress. My evidence that her post is attacking in nature is as follows: 1) Regarding "despite the lies" - yes, I agree that that was not directed at me, and I did not interpret it to be. 2) Regarding the word "pathetic" - there I disagree with you. She didn't say the wet method itself was pathetic - she said USING the method was pathetic, after referring to me in particular as "stressing" my gliders by /thinking/ about using it (a concept I still find hilarious). It was also in all caps - which indicates stress, or screaming, depending on context. And that is my answer for you: Context. That is how I know it was "written that way". It's not 100% infallible, but it's pretty darn close. quote:
I'm going all the way back up to your reply about Ren impregnating the unrelated females multiple times of a course of a few months. Okay, Mr. Smarty Pants, say all the joeys are boys? Ugh!
Are you suggesting that boy gliders under three months of age... can reproduce? I was pretty sure they didn't hit sexual maturity until 7 months at MINIMUM. quote:
There just is no talking to you is there?
See above. quote:
Say your joeys get sick? Say the mothers cannibalize them or rejecting them. Which in your case, I wouldn't doubt or feel bad for you at this point. You seriously need to grow up or something.
Okay, say they do or that that happens. It's entirely possible. I wouldn't feel bad for me, either - it's nature. Animals do what they do. And I think accepting that fact is a sign that I HAVE "grown up". :) DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts Hey now, I gave you KUDOS in a EUREKA fashion for you conceding on the risks of inbreeding. That is something that I am happy was worth the time of this thread. I still think there are a lot of risks to the "program" you are setting up BUT if we have at least agreed to remove the inbreeding - I feel like we have gotten somewhere. You and I do not agree on most points but to Kyro's advice, I agree that you respond much better to fact and proven information. The tough part is that sugar gliders are vastly UNDERstudied so it's hard to give you "case in point" literature on each topic. We have to use anecdotal experiences in a lot of cases...because it's just what we have. Well, we can use "other" small animal studies or mammalian studies overall but I don't know if that is subjective enough for you. It should be as vets use it for basis for SG's all the time. I feel like we have also made progress on the front of vet care regarding fecals and minimal items to ensure the health of gliders. When you think about intros and the behavioral side of gliders that's even less documented by "professionals" and "glider nazi's" are honestly your best bet as often they have dealt with it in the past, ya know? I think where everything went askew here (even for me) is that it is exceptionally hard for "us" to capacitate your way of reasoning and non-emotional justifications. For the most part, everyone here has been trained (or came with it naturally) to think about ownership and all facets in a "considerate" fashion - where the gliders and their holistic well-being is at the forefront. We have a hard time comprehending how someone can say the things that you have regarding your philosophies on ownership and care. No matter how true these statements are for you, they are inflammatory to people on the total polar opposite end of your spectrum. As our statements are inflammatory to you. The bottom line there is that it is just so BLACK and WHITE between the two. But at the same time - to your earlier point - I would much prefer you just be honest so that the full picture is painted honestly. I am sure it is not easy to put that out there knowing you will receive the responses like you have. I would love to change your reasoning and your thoughts on glider ownership overall so that the truth is a different mentality for you but today, it is what it is. I will take the "success" of this thread in knowing that we agree that inbreeding is not a risk to take since it is preventable and not worth it no matter who is right or wrong and that you have on your to-do list to call your vet to discuss things like fecals and how to gauge health checks etc. Those are both a win for gliders to me. While, I have gotten more than vocal about my disdain for your methods and thoughts, I still stand by my commitment to help your gliders where I can. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts quote :
Say your joeys get sick? Say the mothers cannibalize them or rejecting them. Which in your case, I wouldn't doubt or feel bad for you at this point. You seriously need to grow up or something. Response Quote: Jerrycnh Okay, say they do or that that happens. It's entirely possible. I wouldn't feel bad for me, either - it's nature. Animals do what they do. And I think accepting that fact is a sign that I HAVE "grown up". :) Sorry about the formatting - it was easier to just copy and past from the post. Here is the deal on this - the point is, TRY to eliminate as much of this risk as you can - try to keep the joey losses to "none", that should be your goal. There is no reason to create life (in your control) to allow it to be destroyed under the justification "it's just nature taking it's course". At the end of the day, we have COMPLETELY interrupted nature by taking them in and making them captive animals. We absolutely cannot replicate nature to the extent that it exists for them in the wild. We just can't. To put them in a cage, they have no options to run off members of the colony as they would in the wild to prevent losses and inbreeding. This is part of what they do. The dominant gliders will force the joeys to leave the colony so that they can go start their own. From a historical and biological perspective, they do this for their "own good". They "know" instinctively that they need to work in this fashion to also prevent losses. The cage prevents this from being an option and the bottom line - you are taking away that "natural" option afforded to them in the wild. This "natural" option has been studied and scientifically proven as a biological, behavioral, and sustaining advantage for their species. SO if we want to let "nature take it's course", we should try to allow them to at least have those basic trends, right? Otherwise, WE are the catalyst in your cause and effect analogy. WE would then be the ones causing the "breakdown" in nature and leaving them to clean up the mess. Once you see a mom...looking down at her joey that has been rejected...that is screaming it's head off on the cage floor - you will see the emotion (yes, it's there and that's no personification), the stress, the confusion, the overall look of helplessness because she "knew" she shouldn't save her joey because she had no way to care for it but was torn because she could hear the cries and knew that meant to help. What a struggle for her, right? SO, yes, animals do what they do - but as pets they do this within the confines and parameters that we set up for them. All I am asking you here is to consider this. To consider that YOU are the catalyst and the cause for majority of any losses that can happen in breeding as the owner (of COURSE there are things outside of our control there...but I am asking that you control what you can). Considering that, as a responsible and caring owner - you should do all in your power to lower if not eliminate as much risk for joey losses as you can. That is reasonable, right? I am not bashing you, I am asking you to consider this into your risk assessment as YOU are in control of a large portion of it. Now, if you have a breeding pair and you have done all you can to eliminate the risks for losses and they STILL reject or kill their young - you can HONESTLY say - "well, nature just took it's course without my influence and design for acceptable risk...this was outside of my scope and accountability..." Does that all make sense? For the "growing up" comment - this is another area where we struggle to understand. The thing is...a grieving mother (human) could be the most objective and reasonable person alive...then lose a child and that is all out the window. How you handle death is not a matter of maturity - it is a matter of emotion and severing ties to something quite tangible. Death is one of the most natural yet tragic things that we can experience. All reason is abandoned when over ridden with emotion and what an acceptable time to have this happen. Time heals wounds but death is finite. My grandparents on both sides, aunts, uncles, my Mom, and my Dad all passed in a short time. I am a reasonable and mature person - but I grieved and I wept because they were gone. I have a pretty clear understanding of the medical side, the reasons for the deaths and the rationalizations around it all but I still had to work through it. I lost a precious sugar glider not long ago - and despite my rationalization of the experience and my maturity, I also grieved and I wept. Not because I didn't understand that death was inevitable or that "it was bound to happen" - but because I understood his life was important and that I loved him and he loved me. There are plenty of 80+ year old "grown ups" that grieve the loss of a loved one...be it pet or human. SO it's tough to say that maturity will afford us rationalization in lieu of an emotional response. Some people, like yourself, are set up differently and can do that but for the most part - humans are sensitive and emotional creatures no matter how "grown up" they are. Just my thoughts there, we have to agree we are different here Jerry. You are wired in a different way than me and many others. When I said before that you had APD written all over your internet persona, I need you to understand this is one of the reasons I said that. They call it the "sensitivity chip". It really comes down to "empathy/sympathy" as well. There are people that "don't have it" and you do sound like one of those people. Not meant offensive...just part of understanding you better. I am no doctor (although I love to "play" one in my personal life, LOL) and I could just be misreading your thought processes as ironically, you seem very considerate to your gliders comfort on your bonding pouch thread. But it is something I have studied extensively and potentially something you might want to read up on. There is nothing wrong with understanding ourselves better. It will also help with talking to people that are vastly different and help you include such "sensitivities" when talking to them. I think that is sound advice for ANYONE. TheHomermomma Fuzzy Wuzzy 1332 Posts Wow...a lot of emotion here, but I agree with Kim...I will count this thread a success if it only means that you won't inbreed. I also do rescue and I have had colonies of 12+ turned over to me that started out with 1 male and 1 female. Most of the time the reason that they are turned over is not because they have health problems (lots of them do, but that isn't reason that they are turned over) it is usually because they have begun to fight over breeding rights and the gliders have gotten hurt. They have mating wounds (big open sores on the neck, missing feet, ripped off tails) or some have gotten killed. This is not only a problem with unneutered males. Neutered males will still try to breed. I completely understand wanting a large colony. Sometimes they work. A member here, Ko, has a large colony of somewhere over 20 in one large outdoor aviary in Australia. In a colony the size that you are talking about you would need a very large enclosure. Along the lines of the size of a bedroom. The largest colony that I personally have heard of that works is 8 and that is Terry's. However, even he just recently had a glider kicked out of her colony. That is something that you will need to be prepared for when dealing with a large colony. The one thing that I would like to say is please do some more research before you commit to any of your plans. The chances of you breeding successfully with that many females in a colony are slim. Females will pull joeys out of each other's pouches, cannibalize each other's joeys AND their own. They will most likely fight. I get your attitude (I don't agree with it but your point is made) and since you won't be talked out of it I just want to give you the information that you need to make an informed decision. As to the introductions...please wait at least another month to introduce. The younger gliders need time to grow up and be able to defend themselves if necessary. Kind of like not putting a kindergartner in high school. They are just not equipped to handle the older gliders yet. It's (usually) different when they are born into a colony. I also do not recommend the wet method (I realize you have already conceded this, but I just wanted to reiterate that it is for gliders who are hurting themselves and NEED to be with another glider but will not readily accept another and every other method has been exhausted). I wish you the best with your gliders. I understand that you will do what you will with your gliders, but just think that there are people here who have had gliders for YEARS and they truly have the gliders' best interest at heart. We are not "glider nazis" but we are passionate. karensink Face Hugger  802 Posts Way back on another page, Jerry, you asked how did I handle playtime, since I have 5 colonies. Yes tent time does take a while, sometimes I don't do a whole hour with each. 2 of the colonies were the last acquired, I didn't really want so many, but they were adult gliders in bad places, so I got them. One was a little 3 year old guy that was given to me because he was too wild, bit and the owner could only handle him wearing a glove. I found him to be a real sweetie, I picked him out of a pouch within 5 minutes of getting him, no biting, I love him. I try to spend as much time as I can with everyone, but since mist of mine were older and established when I got them, I was afraid to mix them. The males are all neutered. I just hope that for 7 of them, I have given them a much better life
Some photos from our members Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by kyro298
Unfortunately, you only have 20 mins to edit a post so you won't be able to edit the original. That feature is a blessing and a curse. Rarely do people want to edit their threads for a good reason. That was put in place because there were some going back and either deleting the entire content (which left the rest of the thread look very confusing) or changing it to cover a lie they forgot they told.
Oh. I guess that makes sense... perhaps a different thread at the end, then, a "what I learned about integration" with a bullet point list and credit given to the other posters. quote:
Hey now, I gave you KUDOS in a EUREKA fashion for you conceding on the risks of inbreeding.
So you did. No one else seems to have noticed that it happened, though (or hadn't at the time of that post). quote:
That is something that I am happy was worth the time of this thread. I still think there are a lot of risks to the "program" you are setting up BUT if we have at least agreed to remove the inbreeding - I feel like we have gotten somewhere. You and I do not agree on most points but to Kyro's advice, I agree that you respond much better to fact and proven information. The tough part is that sugar gliders are vastly UNDERstudied so it's hard to give you "case in point" literature on each topic. We have to use anecdotal experiences in a lot of cases...because it's just what we have.
Well, not that it's my intent to be some great glider experimentalist, but doesn't that mean that my doing things a bit differently, even if tragic, might bring more knowledge to this understudied area? I mean, if we just copy each other completely we'll never learn anything, right? :) Granted, that's a very Dr. Mengele style approach to the whole thing (sorry for the cringe moment, angelmom), but that's where my "they're just animals" concept comes into play for me, and it's not like I /want/ to hurt them, per se. I just accept that a decision I make may cause that someday. quote:
Well, we can use "other" small animal studies or mammalian studies overall but I don't know if that is subjective enough for you. It should be as vets use it for basis for SG's all the time. I feel like we have also made progress on the front of vet care regarding fecals and minimal items to ensure the health of gliders.
Unfortunately, the vet that I had lined up quoted me very different prices from what you guys suggested. They require an initial exam before they'll do a fecal, and the initial exam is $80 per animal (that's $400 if I bring all 5, even if I bring 1 at random it's still 400% more than the suggested price here). After the initial exam, they charge $32 for a communal fecal exam and $60 for a regular wellness exam. That's $112 minimum (actually I guess it's $224 minimum, I'd need one glider and one fecal from /each/ cage as long as they're seperated) - doesn't work for me. I'll start passively checking around for other vets in the area, but I live on the NH/MA border, which I think is what's driving the price up so much, since those possessing sugar gliders illegally on the MA side of the border would have to creep up here to NH and basically pay whatever they're told in order to get the help they need.... so I'm not optimistic about finding anywhere cheaper. I'll let you know if I do. quote:
Here is the deal on this - the point is, TRY to eliminate as much of this risk as you can...
Here's the thing, DoubleBogey. Everything you said there makes complete, 100% perfect logical sense. As such, I'm COMPLETELY on board with the idea of minimizing any risks as much as possible. Where I run into conflict, here, is in the wide gulf of difference between "minimize" and "eliminate". Too many people seem to think that since I'm unwilling to /eliminate/ any risks, that I cannot be reasoned with and I'm horrible blah blah blah... So if you're willing to help me /minimize/ the risk, I'm all ears. Gliders are quick, but they're not so quick that we can't take this sort of thing step by step and see how it goes. I'll run every plan by you, we'll work it out as a group every step of the way, and both I and, to the extent that they benefit from it, my gliders will be very grateful for the help. As long as we're on the same page that the goal is minimize, not eliminate. quote:
For the "growing up" comment - this is another area where we struggle to understand...
Well then I'll try to explain. It's not that I won't feel the loss - I will. I did, in an earlier post, suggest that I wouldn't feel it to any degree greater than a nonliving piece of property, and I'll admit, that exaggeration was made to drive home the point, it's not /entirely/ true. There is a difference, when it's a living thing. But decision making, IMHO, should not be about emotion. I'm not going to cease making logical choices just because those choices may carry an emotional impact, and logic forces me back to the simple truth: When two goals are in conflict, choose the goal that is higher priority. My highest priority goal, as far as my gliders are concerned, is that they all be able to interact without fighting, as I will be buying a house next year and I /do/ intend to give them their own room to play in (and because while I make sure to devote at least 90 minutes a day to my gliders, I cannot afford any /more/ time than that, so I need them all to be able to play with me at the same time... basically play time is me watching a movie with them running all over me in my room, sometimes I dangle string at them or spin around with them on me, or take them outside to play with the neighbors... lately that's had to be 45/45 to accomodate two colonies, and I don't know how my gliders "feel" about that). Goal #2, just underneath, is to have the experience of bringing at least one set of joeys from OOP to term (with the sneaking suspicion that, once I do it once, I'm likely to be addicted to the experience and want to do it over and over). The subgoal to this, although not quite as important, is to share new joeys with friends who want to get into the hobby. Therefore, the well being of any joeys is my top priority in all cases - EXCEPT cases that would involve seperating gliders, because that goal takes precedence. quote:
Male joeys can mature at 10-12 weeks (renee, doublebogey and Jazz basically all said this).
Oh. Well then I guess my plan just needs to be tweaked to the 10 week mark instead of the 12 week mark, and include neutering or giving away any male joeys involved (likely depending entirely on how much it costs to neuter versus available funds at the time the joeys hit 10 weeks). Y'all could have just said that instead of going "what if they're male, DUH". Like I knew when they could reproduce. :) quote:
This is not only a problem with unneutered males. Neutered males will still try to breed.
That... is a note of concern. Hmmm. I'll have to think about how to handle that - may have to go back to keeping females only. quote:
I completely understand wanting a large colony. Sometimes they work. A member here, Ko, has a large colony of somewhere over 20 in one large outdoor aviary in Australia. In a colony the size that you are talking about you would need a very large enclosure. Along the lines of the size of a bedroom.
The largest colony that I personally have heard of that works is 8 and that is Terry's. However, even he just recently had a glider kicked out of her colony. That is something that you will need to be prepared for when dealing with a large colony.
Fair enough. Has anyone ever tried seperate enclosures but letting the gliders mix and match who goes where every time they come out? Do you think it would be possible, and that maybe the "personal space" when they're in their cages could help them cope with the larger play group? quote:
The chances of you breeding successfully with that many females in a colony are slim. Females will pull joeys out of each other's pouches, cannibalize each other's joeys AND their own. They will most likely fight. I get your attitude (I don't agree with it but your point is made) and since you won't be talked out of it I just want to give you the information that you need to make an informed decision.
Is there anything that can be done to maximize the chance of success? quote:
As to the introductions...please wait at least another month to introduce. The younger gliders need time to grow up and be able to defend themselves if necessary. Kind of like not putting a kindergartner in high school. They are just not equipped to handle the older gliders yet. It's (usually) different when they are born into a colony.
I'm taking it slowly. I doubt I'll have them all in the same cage within a month. Still at the swapping scent items stage, as well as now letting them roam over each others' cages during play time. They still seem a little intimidated on both fronts, but they're not freaking out anymore, so... progress. -=================== Karen, thanks for the description of your playtime routine. Definitely what I'm trying to avoid, but I can definitely agree that in your situation it's much better for them than it was where they were, and if my situation winds up going that way... it won't be the /end/ of the world, the gliders and I will all adapt /somehow/. ;) JazzNZoeysmom Zippy Glidershorts USA 5354 Posts Well Jerry, I do hope you don't think everyone on here is a fanatic or glider nazis. Some of us may not agree with you but I for one do respect the fact that you do touch base on every single issue or comment and you more often than not respond in a calm, diplomatic way. I know some people don't think you're listening but I've read enough of your posts to know that isn't true...you just need more solid information,...not theory and conjecture. You do have your beliefs and are firm in them, but you are also open to change given the proper information. Not many people have that ability. They hang onto their ways & beliefs like a dog with a bone even when "other" options can be presented as equally valid. I like this forum & I respect many of the people on here, but believe me, I don't follow a black & white script on sugar glider care. I do what I feel is right for me & mine and I dare say many others do as well, but like you said, they are afraid to stray too far from the norm on the open forum for fear of being repremanded. Just like this very second.... Caci is in my shirt because he got neutered this morning. He was a bit shivery like he couldn't shake a chill so he's bundled in fleece down my shirt front. A bit ago we had a pop up storm roll thru that spooked my others. I got everyone calmed down except for Zoe...she wanted to be on me...well I currently sit with Caci in my front & Zoe hanging off my back bra strap by my shoulder. We have clean fecals for all but we are not at the intro stage yet so I have 2 un-introduced gliders in my shirt. I'm sure some will flog me for it but I'm sorry, I couldn't choose who "not" to comfort so I chose NOT to choose. They are both cuddled up dreaming their little glider dreams and I'm ok with that. Definately keep us updated. I'm not sure if you'll do any intros & integrating before I do but if so, I really wanna know how it turns out. If mine goes well I will have 7 in 3 linked cages. Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts 
quote:
Originally posted by TheHomermomma
"Fair enough. Has anyone ever tried seperate enclosures but letting the gliders mix and match who goes where every time they come out? Do you think it would be possible, and that maybe the "personal space" when they're in their cages could help them cope with the larger play group?"
Most likely mixing and matching will not work. Gliders can be VERY territorial over their cages and their mates. Unfortunately, they do not have the same mentality that most dogs have where they can play with other dogs then go home and be happy. Gliders who do not live together (separate cages) generally do not play well together and if they "mix and match" there will likely be fights in the middle of the night when they are in the cage with a glider that is not strictly from their colony. I know that there have been a few instances of gliders getting out of their cage and being killed by another glider because it got on the other's cage and one where somehow they put the glider back in the wrong cage and it was dead the next morning. From what we DO know of glider traits and habits this is not how they work. Gliders can be nasty little buggers. They can get along just fine for years (like Terry's colony) and then BAM they attack a colony member. The only thing that helps in larger colonies is LOTS of space (that's why I said you'd need a room sized cage) and lots of sleeping places so that if someone gets kicked out they have somewhere to go.
"Is there anything that can be done to maximize the chance of success?"
Not that I know of. There are many breeders who will only deal with breeding pairs because even trios can be very hard to breed successfully. However, I have, again, had gliders turned into the rescue in groups of 12 or more that have obviously been very successful in breeding. But the truth is that probably as many as live are also killed. I say that because the last group that I picked up was 21 that all started out from 1 male and 1 female like 8 years before. When I took them home and got them out of the no sew pouch that they were all in there were 4 dead joeys in the pouch, 3 joey skeletons, 2 juvenile skeletons and at least 1 adult skeleton and then inside (between the layers) there were MANY small bits of bone and fur. I don't honestly know what makes them kill one joey and let another live. Many people say that the gliders "know" that there is something wrong with them. Maybe. Or maybe they are in competition for the gene pool or they are too crowded, or the joeys try to nurse from the wrong mom or they are not fed enough and the adults are trying to survive by taking out anything that threatens their food supply. I don't know. But in 8 years with an average of 2 joeys 3 to 4 times a year from every female (let's just say that half are female and they only have 3 litters a year with only 1 joey each time for 6 years as a VERY conservative estimate) that's 10 females x 3 joeys per year = 30 joeys a year for 6 years = 180 gliders. There were 21 - the original 2. They never gave away or sold any gliders. So where are the other 161 gliders? I'm just showing the math to give you an idea of how unsuccessful the large colony breeding is.
Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysmom
Well Jerry, I do hope you don't think everyone on here is a fanatic or glider nazis....
No, not /everyone/. :) Thanks for the words of support regarding my integrity, it definitely helps to hear them. I appreciate both your insights and your patience in discussing these things with me despite our other areas of disagreement. Gotta say, people mostly seem to be calming down and talking it out with me now. Dare I hope that this sort of intellectual level might be maintained over time? Well, with one exception... quote:
You know Jerry, I personally think everyone has given you more than their fair share of patience.
I'd hate to see your idea of someone being immediately IMpatient. quote:
No dear, your plan needs a complete overhaul.
Joeys really shouldn't be separated from the parents that early...
Now I'm COMPLETELY confused. Let me recap this conversation from my perspective: Plan A. Give away all male joeys, let my adult male breed with all four females AND all female offspring with impunity indefinitely, thus /limiting/ inbreeding to one generation. DoubleBogey convinced me that even one deliberate layer of inbreeding was one too many. So... Plan B. At the first sign of joeys, start the clock. 12 Weeks after the first joey is OOP, neuter my adult male. Neuter or give away all male joeys at 12 weeks. Once there are no intact males in the cage, obtain a new unrelated intact male from somewhere else. You, among other people, told me male joeys could potentially procreate at 10 weeks - I assumed to point out that said joeys could wind up mating with their mothers and cause inbreeding before I had a chance to stop them. Which led me to... Plan C. Alter Plan B to do the neutering at 10 weeks, not 12. To which you're now telling me that joeys shouldn't be seperated that early. Well, no one really said too much about seperation at this point - if I'm neutering them, then there's no reason not to keep them. And if they're neutered and I plan to give them away, well.. I can do that at any point. If, for some reason ($$$), I was choosing not to neuter them, then.. well, we'd have to choose the lesser of two evils. Seperation at 10 weeks, or risk inbreeding? After DoubleBogey's very convincing presentation, seperation seems to me like the obvious preference. What part of the plan needs an overhaul? quote:
Okay, my opinion. I know it is snarky but I don't care because I think that you have shown complete ignorance towards glider husbandry and are a VERY selfish individual!
Let me help you out here: 
The idea is to get your arguments as close to the top of the pyramid as possible - that's how intelligent, mature individuals have a debate on a topic. You're all the way down at the bottom right now. :) So when I say raise your game, please understand my full meaning. quote:
You've shown immaturity throughout your thread. I bet you bucked the system a lot when you were a kid. By the way, how old are you?
I'm 12. I'm 50. I'm 35. What does it matter? My words are my words regardless of my personal demographic. Would you like to know my skin color too? Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts Okay Jerry, here's one that'll knock you over...I don't care! Do what you want. We've tried talking to you and you don't seem to want to listen or heed warnings of possible things that can come up later on. It's fine, it's cool. I only asked how old you were because I didn't know if I was talking to a child, an ignorant adult or a know-it-all teen. Now don't get me wrong. I don't know it all but at least I have enough common sense to know you can't control nature. If he mates with all four, he can do it again quickly and keep impregnating them over and over and you'll have so much on your hands. I'm just thinking about the troubles you'll have later. I almost would love to tell you to neuter him and adopt a ready made colony or two from Lucky Glider Rescue Sanctuary here in Texas. The males are all neutered before you get them and you would be helping rehomed gliders. And it's only $50 for an entire colony! But, if you are above that, by all means do it your way. And when it all hits the fan and your plan crumbles around your feet, don't come back whining about it. Sure, we'll be happy for you if it turns out the way you want it to but as far as I hear you have what? 1 plan? You need a plan A,B,C and D. Thats all I want to say...for now. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
Okay Jerry, here's one that'll knock you over...I don't care! Do what you want. We've tried talking to you and you don't seem to want to listen or heed warnings of possible things that can come up later on.
Do you know what helps when listening and heeding warnings? Understanding them. :) I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to warn me will happen! quote:
It's fine, it's cool. I only asked how old you were because I didn't know if I was talking to a child, an ignorant adult or a know-it-all teen.
Right. You wanted to make assumptions based on my age. If I'm a teen, I'm beyond reaching because "teens know it all". If I'm an adult, I'm too set in my ignorant opinions to see the glory of your perspective. If I'm a child... Well, I suspect you'd just tell me I shouldn't even be here. Like children are somehow unworthy of asking advice. You were trying to invoke an age-based prejudice. Shame on you. quote:
Now don't get me wrong. I don't know it all but at least I have enough common sense to know you can't control nature. If he mates with all four, he can do it again quickly and keep impregnating them over and over and you'll have so much on your hands.
That's, like, my best case scenario, :) its what I WANT to have happen. I want to have more gliders than I know what to do with - because I have plenty of eager friends waiting for new babies. quote:
I'm just thinking about the troubles you'll have later.
Like what? quote:
I almost would love to tell you to neuter him and adopt a ready made colony or two from Lucky Glider Rescue Sanctuary here in Texas. The males are all neutered before you get them and you would be helping rehomed gliders. And it's only $50 for an entire colony! But, if you are above that, by all means do it your way.
Above that? No. I actually think that would have been a pret cool way to go with it, but there are a few problems. Admittedly, one of them is just the selfish desire to raise a Joey from the beginning - much like prospective adoptive parents prefer infants to older children, so they can have the "full" experience, but that's really the bottom reason on the list. The biggest, really, is simply that it's a LONG way from NH to tx, and my understanding is that gliders don't really do well on flights. (plus I imagine I'd be expecting to foot the shipping bill - which is fair, but not in my budget). Then, of course, there's the issue of my viewpoints - this very thread has a rescue administrator basing his questionnaires specifically to weed OUT people like me (honestly, I'm shocked and flattered you'd even consider me "worthy" of rescuing). quote:
And when it all hits the fan and your plan crumbles around your feet, don't come back whining about it.
Duly noted. quote:
Sure, we'll be happy for you if it turns out the way you want it to but as far as I hear you have what? 1 plan? You need a plan A,B,C and D. Thats all I want to say...for now.
So help me make them. Geez, it's not like I don't know that I need help - THAT'S WHY IM HERE. :) ResaJane Face Hugger 411 Posts Actually Jerry, shipping isn't that stressful when done right. My babies e'er all flown to me and they did great. Would you be open to just breeding one female to your male and keeping them separate until said male can be neutered and you have your joey to raise.......then create a colony of neutered males and some females? That way you have your joey experience and you can give homes to rescues. Really, i'm sure you care about your animals regardless of how much you would mourn their loss......and with this plan, kill two birds with one stone? Resa Edited to combat auto correct lol
Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Jerry - how old are the new cinnamons again? I don't want to go hunting for it but I think you said maybe they were older than you thought? I have an idea that may work for what you are trying to do. It's not optimal and not what I would necessarily advise anyone to do - BUT, I think it will address the inbreeding concern, the hierarchy concern (on the front end...I can't predict the future...not just yet...though I actively try), and some of your concerns also around finances, new males, and convenience. Just want to kind of lay the ages out in my head. Also, how old is your male and the two females in your first cage?
How would you feel about having 12 total gliders instead of 15? I am assuming anything over 15 and you will give them away so that is not a concern. Thinking of that though, how important is it to you to have a surplus to give to friends and family?
Cinnamons are /supposedly/ 13 weeks today - yes, they do look older. Ren, the male, is 1 year old. Precious is 2 years old. I've caught her and Ren mating, but no sign of joeys yet. Serenity is 7 months old. Surplus is important, but much less so if it really is that easy to get gliders from a rescue - my friends are fairly altruistic in general, they'd be happy to give homeless gliders a good home. What's the idea? Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
Jerry would it not be worth the looong drive to pick up a bunch of gliders from Ed and Gail?
No. Even if I decided to cease any breeding attempts completely, there's plenty of more local gliders I can get, and, if this forum actually steps forward, a railroad network that might be able to get them here in other ways. (One I have already volunteered to be a part of, so I feel perfectly justified in calling on others here since I've already expressed a willingness to do my part). quote:
Hoping they aren't reading these posts of yours. They are pretty selective in adopting out.
Which is another reason why driving to Texas would likely be a waste of my time. quote:
Another thing, you can't go and make a mess and expect others to help you clean it up(#1friends wanting extra joeys)
Since, again, you seem incapable of stating things clearly, I'm going to assume the "mess" you're talking about is overpopulation - if I'm wrong, let me know. I'm not recruiting my friends to "clean up" that mess - their demand for gliders is the REASON for the mess in the first place. (Or, at the very least, the reason why I'm not concerned about the possibility.) quote:
what happens when you run out of friends wanting joeys?
I'd likely neuter the male before that point, but if I did wind up with too many, I probably would put the excess on craigslist. Demand here is VERY high, they'd move fast, especially since I probably wouldn't even bother asking for a rehoming fee. quote:
. We'll/I'll talk to you like a civil adult if you decide to stop acting like A) you know it all and have it all under control.
B) Actually take advice instead of keep shooting it down.
I'm not even sure I should dignify this with a response. Even the other people /attacking/ me, I think, would cede that I'm not "acting like I know it all". If I thought I knew it all, why would I bother posting here? I'd just execute my plan on my own and it would work or it wouldn't and THEN, if it didn't, people would have a right to criticize me for not doing my homework before diving in. As for point B... offer some GOOD advice and I won't shoot it down. I'm not going to blindly follow every suggestion posed to me, and as I've said like 8 times, I'm still not entirely clear on what your suggestions ARE. quote:
Sure we can all play like nothing is going to happen ever and you'll have a bunch of perfect joeys and no problems at all but the sad truth is the world/mother nature is not always kind (#2deformities, cannibalization, inbreeding even though you think you have a tab on it.)
Your point...? quote:
It is alarming to hear you continue to say over and over that you want something done a certain way because of selfish reasons such as, "I want to raise them from beginning". But, I know you are not alone in the world of people wanting that so yea, you do that.
Ironically, if we were talking about human children I'd prefer to skip all the baby crap and adopt an older one with an established personality. :) But with the gliders I want a natural born. Go figure. quote:
Jerry, please research, research and research more. Be double ready.
Isn't that why I'm HERE?!? quote:
It's good to hope for the best but it is best to prepare for the worst in any situation (see above #2 for elaboration if you need any). I have tried this time to close any loopholes you can jump through as far as not understanding but I'm sure you'll find something to banter about.
Perhaps what I'm missing is what you'd do to "prepare for the worst". The worst case, in this scenario, would be that none of the females is allowed by the others to bring any joeys to term. In which case I'd wind up burying the failures and either giving up on the joey idea and neutering the male, or else isolating the male with a single female and trying again. If you have any other ideas on preparation, I welcome them. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts PrimoWorks Joey USA 47 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
B) Actually take advice instead of keep shooting it down.
I may come to regret this post, but advice is a suggestion. It is up to the individual to make a decision as to whether to follow the advice or not. If one chooses to not follow the advice, does that constitute shooting it down? If so, do you follow ALL the advice on this forum? If not, then you are shooting some of it down. Fortunately, even God himself gives us the option of following his commandments or not (or even believing in Him or not). I hope I don't get flamed for my opinion, but I prefer to believe that I have the freedom to choose what advise to follow, and to state so. Like the time I was strongly advised by a professional (geneticist) to have an abortion because my unborn child had a 75% chance of having a disability. She is now 15 and, yes, she has medical problems. She's also an intelligent, precocious, funny, sassy young lady that handles her disabilty like a pro. I think it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to reject advice from anyone, whether professional or layperson, provided they are willing and able to accept the consequences. And, no, my daughter is not supported by disability or any other government subsidy, so no taxpayer is paying for my decision. I've read the whole thread and, to me, it all boils down to whether Jerry accepts the advice/suggestions or not and people objecting - sometimes very strongly - to his choices. If that's the case, the only one that has the right to object is the person that has NEVER rejected ANYONE'S advice. I, for one, cannot. Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts I have absolutely no problem with what you said and yes, advice can be taken or left. I'm thinking he doesn't understand what I'm trying to say because it isn't what he wants to hear. To me the whole thread boils down to this, he asked for advice, I/we gave him some tips, advice , suggestions and he doesn't want or need them. They don't fit his criteria therefore, the poster (usually me) is incapable of making sense for him to understand. IMO Ignorance is bliss. Must be a joy in this case. quote:
Originally posted by PrimoWorks
quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
B) Actually take advice instead of keep shooting it down.
I may come to regret this post, but advice is a suggestion. It is up to the individual to make a decision as to whether to follow the advice or not. If one chooses to not follow the advice, does that constitute shooting it down? If so, do you follow ALL the advice on this forum? If not, then you are shooting some of it down. Fortunately, even God himself gives us the option of following his commandments or not (or even believing in Him or not).
I hope I don't get flamed for my opinion, but I prefer to believe that I have the freedom to choose what advise to follow, and to state so. Like the time I was strongly advised by a professional (geneticist) to have an abortion because my unborn child had a 75% chance of having a disability. She is now 15 and, yes, she has medical problems. She's also an intelligent, precocious, funny, sassy young lady that handles her disabilty like a pro. I think it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to reject advice from anyone, whether professional or layperson, provided they are willing and able to accept the consequences. And, no, my daughter is not supported by disability or any other government subsidy, so no taxpayer is paying for my decision.
I've read the whole thread and, to me, it all boils down to whether Jerry accepts the advice/suggestions or not and people objecting - sometimes very strongly - to his choices. If that's the case, the only one that has the right to object is the person that has NEVER rejected ANYONE'S advice. I, for one, cannot.
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