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Jerrycnh Glider    119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
I have absolutely no problem with what you said and yes, advice can be taken or left. I'm thinking he doesn't understand what I'm trying to say because it isn't what he wants to hear. To me the whole thread boils down to this, he asked for advice, I/we gave him some tips, advice , suggestions and he doesn't want or need them. They don't fit his criteria therefore, the poster (usually me) is incapable of making sense for him to understand. IMO Ignorance is bliss. Must be a joy in this case.
No, there's a huge difference between not accepting something and not understanding it. You may have noticed, earlier in this thread, I took petluv15's arguments and repeated them in a different way. I was trying to emphasize how diplomacy works, but the bottom line was that I was /able/ to paraphrase what she said, even though I disagreed with some of it. I honestly, truly could not repeat your advice back to you right now. If it was just a question of disagreeing with you, then I'd be pointing out where your suggestions don't work for me or where I see flaws or whatever. But at this point, I honestly, sincerely don't even KNOW if I agree with you or not... because I don't understand what you're trying to say. Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts This is my fault? (No. Even if I decided to cease any breeding attempts completely, there's plenty of more local gliders I can get, and, if this forum actually steps forward, a railroad network that might be able to get them here in other ways. (One I have already volunteered to be a part of, so I feel perfectly justified in calling on others here since I've already expressed a willingness to do my part). (Which is another reason why driving to Texas would likely be a waste of my time.) Your own fault for the responses you give (Since, again, you seem incapable of stating things clearly, I'm going to assume the "mess" you're talking about is overpopulation - if I'm wrong, let me know. I'm not recruiting my friends to "clean up" that mess - their demand for gliders is the REASON for the mess in the first place. (Or, at the very least, the reason why I'm not concerned about the possibility.) I had not even touched on the fact about overpopulation Jerry. I was referring more to it may be a little much for you to keep losing joeys. Most people don't like to have disfigured, inbred joeys or joeys that get rejected. But, if you feel you are up to the challenge, have at it. (I'd likely neuter the male before that point, but if I did wind up with too many, I probably would put the excess on craigslist. Demand here is VERY high, they'd move fast, especially since I probably wouldn't even bother asking for a rehoming fee.) Demand is so high that Craigslist is littered with listings with gliders. How could you be sure you'd be rehoming them to a suitable, knowledgeable home or do you not care? (As for point B... offer some GOOD advice and I won't shoot it down. I'm not going to blindly follow every suggestion posed to me, and as I've said like 8 times, I'm still not entirely clear on what your suggestions ARE.) Okay, here it is again. why not just adopt gliders needing to be rehomed? They can be neutered already or you can get them neutered during quarantine. I know I said that to you. (Response Quote: Jerrycnh Okay, say they do or that that happens. It's entirely possible. I wouldn't feel bad for me, either - it's nature. Animals do what they do. And I think accepting that fact is a sign that I HAVE "grown up". :) Until it actually starts happening. (Isn't that why I'm HERE?!?) I don't know. Why are you here? (Perhaps what I'm missing is what you'd do to "prepare for the worst". The worst case, in this scenario, would be that none of the females is allowed by the others to bring any joeys to term. In which case I'd wind up burying the failures and either giving up on the joey idea and neutering the male, or else isolating the male with a single female and trying again. If you have any other ideas on preparation, I welcome them.) I can't tell you what I'd do because I've never been in that situation nor would I put myself into the situation. I personally think that neutering your male period is the best advice I can give you. Until you can show you have some kind of care about living beings whether they be human or animal, you shouldn't be allowed to own more than what you have. This is is my Suggestion, Opinion and Advice all rolled into one paragraph. So no misunderstanding. Okay? One more thing, Poor Ren is going to be the baby-daddy of so many joeys, you will be spreading him awful thin. He knows he has to help the moms and if he is running from one female to the other, he'll probably die from exhaustion. Does that make any sense!? PrimoWorks Joey  USA 47 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
I have absolutely no problem with what you said and yes, advice can be taken or left. I'm thinking he doesn't understand what I'm trying to say because it isn't what he wants to hear. To me the whole thread boils down to this, he asked for advice, I/we gave him some tips, advice , suggestions and he doesn't want or need them. They don't fit his criteria therefore, the poster (usually me) is incapable of making sense for him to understand. IMO Ignorance is bliss. Must be a joy in this case.[quote]
[quote]Originally posted by Jerrycnh
Thank you. That description of your experience was very helpful.
I have questions/comments about it:
1) I have a pretty good understanding of both hierarchies right now, so I know definitely who's who in the pecking order. Given that it's 3-2 instead of 5-1, the plan of adding 1 glider at a time would involve multiple instances of two different colonies. For me, the first obvious pair would be the bottom pegs from each colony, Serenity and The Brain. But the next step is harder to figure - no matter which colony I take the next one from, it's going to create an imbalance that would seemingly make it harder for the last two. Which would you go with, the last "new" glider or the middle child from the original colony?
2) I love the idea of a food distraction - for my group, it would be cantaloupes, that's their favorite. :)
.............
Perhaps it's too ambitious, I chose 15 mostly because what I've read on the subject says that's the typical size of a "wild" colony. Of course, they don't all have to live in the same cage - I'm more than happy getting 3 aviary cages and having 5 each, so they can have their space, I'd just want to be able to have them all out at the same time to play (and, in my pipe dreams, be able to put them back in the three cages at random rather than have to say, "Okay, this one goes in /that/ home..."). Those are problems for another day and, again, when the time comes, I will solicit advice before proceeding. I may not heed what I get, but I /will/ listen.
...............
That cheap fecal option sounds good, before today I had no idea it was a possibility. Calling my chosen vet this weekend is on my to-do list.
Apparently, he does take advice, albeit selectively. As we all do. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts Jerry - on the ages, it does complicate things a bit because the cinnamons are so young. Even if they are 18 weeks instead of 13 - it's still young and impacts my idea. Basis for my age related thoughts: In the wild, gliders typically breed only once or twice a year based on their breeding cycles/season. In captivity, of course, they can breed year round because of the constant environment and food availability and no sense really of seasons. It is advised to not allow females to breed until they are roughly 10-12 months old. There is some science to back this up but I will put a link to a site that talks through it also for you (I can provide more if you need them). The general premise is based on the cycles of breeding in the wild - a joey will have roughly 9 months to "mature" until another breeding cycle starts that they might or might not participate in. The risks associated with breeding before the age of maturation is really for females more than males and is centered around their growing bodies needing the nutrition to continue growing and preparing to be adults. If they are nursing and raising joeys - the problem is two fold... 1) they are not getting the optimal nutrition as the joeys are instead i.e. milk etc which can lead to other conditions as a result and 2) you have a glider that might not be mature enough to care for her joeys resulting in losses or just a bad mom with potentially unhealthy joeys. In your case, a joey that was not being cared for by mom might seek out another mom in the colony. The other mom might raise them or might reject them/injure them. Once the joey is weak and declining it's all downhill from there. Link for discussion: http://www.suzsugargliders.com/breedingsugargliders.htm
My thoughts were to tell you to move forward with your intro when the cinnamons are old enough but now I worry that you will have territorial pregnant mom's in the first cage at that time. If ever a female shows her true colors for protection - it's when there are joeys involved. It's going to get sticky on intro's once you have "babies in play" and it sounds like Ren and one of the females have already mated. The reason that you might not have seen any bumps is the first 15-17 days joeys are in utero and still internal. Around that 16th-ish day, the baby will be "born" and climb up the stomach and into the pouch where it will attach to the nipple and reside for the next 60-70 days or so until it detaches and can't really fit anymore. I had the idea to get the intro done and to allow the male to breed with each of the females once - which will produce between 4-8 joeys (if they all make it to fruition). Most first litters a) don't make it or b) are singles but that's not carved in stone. Then you would have 4-8 joeys to contend with and the male would have likely already put more joeys in pouch by the time those are OOP. You could feasibly neuter at that time and you would be pretty close to your goal of glider colony size. Albeit, you would have to neuter Dad than any subsequent male joeys to keep from a layer of inbreeding happening. I am in favor of having a good mix of males and females honestly. Females tend to be at the root of a lot of neutered colony spats. I tend to think this is because we can remove the hormonal element from males (making them more predictable and even) but we cannot do so with females and they will still have a heat every 28 days or so. But with the one breeding having already taken place and the cinnamons being so young...I don't think this plan will work now. I am kind of thinking you might be back to the thought of having two cages with an intact male in each. You will probably have the same number of joeys born and have a higher success rate of survival as it's better to have trios than larger groups trying to breed. Bearing in mind, that even seasoned breeders get concerns about having trios much less than someone with 4 months under their belt (no offense, just speaking factually here). Joeys are incredibly easy to intro so any offspring would be easy to put into a colony and let it grow. SO, with this plan, you would allow the males to breed your females once. When those joeys are OOP - go ahead and neuter both males. You will already have joeys IP more than likely and will have another production of joeys right behind the first. Neutering the males at that point will stop any parent to child inbreeding from the father. You will then need to contend with neuters for the male joeys. You will have 4-8 joeys the first set between the cages and then likely 8 joeys in the second breeding set...which would give you a minimum of 8 joeys (assuming they all survive) and a potential of 16 which would give you the "surplus" you are thinking about. I would not post them on CL for free though. I just read today about a man that got a dog off CL just to kill it...literally beat it with a hammer, stabbed it in the chest, and God knows what else. On another note: how do you plan to handle rejected joeys? SO there are some thoughts. Just keep in mind as my personal disclaimer, I don't agree with the breeding concept that you are trying to set up. I think it is riddled with risk and deficits and it's way too fast for a new glider owner, however, as I committed...I am trying to give you constructive ideas that will make the situation as "safe" as possible. Would enjoy hearing your thoughts/reactions to this concept. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts I meant to respond to this yesterday - just wanted to add my two cents. Quote from jerrycnh: Well, not that it's my intent to be some great glider experimentalist, but doesn't that mean that my doing things a bit differently, even if tragic, might bring more knowledge to this understudied area? I mean, if we just copy each other completely we'll never learn anything, right? :) I could try to find some data to back up colony behaviors and dissension in larger group captive breeding scenarios if you like but this does come down to trusting the anecdotal data that we have today. There are many rescuers and breeders that have already seen this type of set up or have tried it and failed. Hence why we are all preaching about it so hard. I, for one, have heard the stories of gliders coming into rescue in horrid shape because they were not neutered, etc and allowed to breed (mating wounds, deaths, sickly, inbred, some even missing feet and body parts). I have seen pictures of the joeys pulled, joeys heads ripped off, mom's that stole joeys that were not old enough to be OOP, mom's that couldn't properly nourish their babies and the resulting joey being skeletal and dying within hours or worse...days. So I am not just spitting this info out of my ass as "something I read on the internet"...it's real. So, I just want to tell you that your doing things "differently" isn't so different. It's been done and the results have been tragic (referring to your initial plan). And no one would learn any more by having your "program" fail. It would be confirmation that we don't need and that we have gotten several times already. I have seen this first hand with a breeder that was trying to do large colony breeding. She couldn't keep it straight and had no idea where her joeys were "going"...because they were being eaten. From a strictly fiscal perspective, it was stupid. Let alone the moral and ethical implications. This is not meant as an insult to you - but I wanted you to understand that there will be no educational value in it for glider owners. That education is already there. PrimoWorks Joey USA 47 Posts Hi DB, I'm not planning on breeding on Jerry's scale, but I do have 1 female and 3 males. I originally wanted only males but ended up rescuing the girl. Anyway, I will be neutering 2 of the boys soon but, with the black beauty, neutering is not an option (hubby refuses to neuter his boy :)). I don't mind having a few joeys, since we have the space, means, and interested close friends that would give them excellent homes, if they wanted one. My questions are: Is it advisable to leave all four together or should I provide separate cages? I'm thinking I'll wait until there's joeys IP and see just how territorial she gets. She's the biggest of the bunch and pretty forceful so I don't expect the boys to try to bother her. Should I place a nesting box close to the bottom when I first notice joeys IP or should I wait til they are OOP? Would moving the nesting box after they come out disturb momma? Should I increase her protein intake prior to pregnancy, á la prenatal vitamins? Thanks for the earlier, very informative post and thanks for any replies to this. Irene Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
This is my fault?
Your own fault for the responses you give
Still no idea what you were trying to say there. But the rest of your post makes sense to me, thankfully, so I'll address that. quote:
I had not even touched on the fact about overpopulation Jerry. I was referring more to it may be a little much for you to keep losing joeys. Most people don't like to have disfigured, inbred joeys or joeys that get rejected. But, if you feel you are up to the challenge, have at it.
Ohhhhhh. See, that wasn't clear at /all/ before. It's about my emotional well-being, you're concerned that this might scar me as I go through it. Thank you. Sincerely, seriously, THANK you for caring about my feelings, and trying to keep me from being hurt. I really do appreciate it. And you may be right. I mean, to be honest, I don't think a dead/rejected joey would scar me too much, because it would happen so quick - days, maybe even hours. But a deformed joey, or a joey with medical problems... that would tug at the heart strings a great deal, because I'd bond with it as I was trying to help it survive. And if it was clearly in pain... Yes, it's a huge risk. But like I said... I can't cease making logical choices just because they may have an emotional impact. quote:
Demand is so high that Craigslist is littered with listings with gliders.
The reverse, actually - you rarely see a glider post, and when you do it's gone in a day. Demand is high, supply is low. quote:
How could you be sure you'd be rehoming them to a suitable, knowledgeable home or do you not care?
Well, I'd care, but it'd just be a matter of instinct. I mean, how much can you tell about people from one meeting? quote:
Okay, here it is again. why not just adopt gliders needing to be rehomed? They can be neutered already or you can get them neutered during quarantine. I know I said that to you.
You might have, early on. I didn't realize your later statements were meant to be arguments in favor of that. In any case, you already know my answer, selfish though it is - the desire to be a glider grandparent to a newborn joey. I know this reason is unacceptable to you, because it puts my potential happiness above the welfare of the glider lives I might be bringing into this world, but my own priorities are such that my happiness does come before their welfare. quote:
Until you can show you have some kind of care about living beings whether they be human or animal, you shouldn't be allowed to own more than what you have.
Should and shouldn't are irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that I AM allowed to own more than I have. A statement like this may serve to help you vent your frustrations, but it also weakens other areas of your argument. For example, it makes me say to myself, "This woman is ruled by her emotions. So when she says breeding my male is a bad idea, she's probably just still being emotional and has no real reasons to back up that claim." quote:
One more thing, Poor Ren is going to be the baby-daddy of so many joeys, you will be spreading him awful thin. He knows he has to help the moms and if he is running from one female to the other, he'll probably die from exhaustion. Does that make any sense!?
That... is a very, very valid point, if that's how it works. I was operating under the assumption that, ideally, the entire "village" would raise the children... but if the females can't be counted on to help each other, then yes, my poor male is going to be on overload. Can anyone else confirm Omi's thinking here? This would be another excellent reason to restrict his breeding to just the two greys and not integrate the cinnamons yet. (Or faux cinnamons - one already seems to be losing some of that color. I guess that would at least confirm that I'm feeding them well, although it's annoying as hell if I really bought two more greys). Perhaps even get a second male for the other girls and make two big colonies for later integration post-neutering... ResaJane Face Hugger 411 Posts And you had asked if Omis had made sense. You may not have understood and that is not a bash on you....but I understood every word she said. I don't agree with what you want to do at all....I have 7 neutered boys and a female and it'll stay that way. We have given you advice, whether or not it came in the form of an argument....but now it's up to you to use that advice if you choose. I pray for the gliders' sake your goal is met quick and with as little death as possible. I am active military and thru experience I am one of those people who can compartmentalize death. It doesn't affect me the way it would most, whether human or animal...but I would not purposely seek it or risk it happening..... and would never dream to attempt what you are dreaming of. I am attached to my gliders and it would be unacceptable me to know their Joeys were dying bc of my selfish decision. Just reading about joey skeletons on the bottom of cages makes me twitch.....shudder. Not meant as a bash so a bashing response not needed. Resa Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts This goes together. In the parenthesis is your comment, Above it is my comment to your comment. Capiche? This is my fault? (No. Even if I decided to cease any breeding attempts completely, there's plenty of more local gliders I can get, and, if this forum actually steps forward, a railroad network that might be able to get them here in other ways. (One I have already volunteered to be a part of, so I feel perfectly justified in calling on others here since I've already expressed a willingness to do my part). Then quote: mine-Hoping they aren't reading these posts of yours. They are pretty selective in adopting out. yours-(Which is another reason why driving to Texas would likely be a waste of my time). goes with... mine-Your own fault for the responses you give. Sorry for the confusion on misplacing my answers with your quotes. PrimoWorks Joey USA 47 Posts Candy, DB got it covered. Didn't think to do a new thread. That's what happens you try to post while sampling your homemade wine.  Thanks!
Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Skyfire
What!!!!!!!!!! So you would just kill it!!!!!!!
Yes. quote:
They why even breen in the first place!
Because the odds of rejection are not 100%. quote:
Why have glider period!!!!! Why not go have them put to sleep since they are going to die one day anyways!!!!!!! Thats just sick!!!
There's a huge difference between dying "one day" years in the future versus guaranteed starving to death within days because it has no viable food source. If it's fellow gliders are not feeding it, and I cannot take the days off work to feed it hourly, then it's death is guaranteed. At that point, just watching it starve for hours/days would be somewhat cruel, don't you think? Better to put it down quickly and spare it that pain.
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