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JazzNZoeysmom Zippy Glidershorts    USA 5354 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily88
No, that's not correct Jazz. It doesn't matter who or what he's breeding the joey's for if he has more than 3 breeding females in his home. I have the licensing requirements in my hand now, going through the process myself at the moment.
I stand corrected,... but I can promise you, Jerry has no intention of getting licensed. I know everyone is in turmoil about all of this but I think we all need to keep in mind, he hasn't done anything yet. Heck, he doesn't even have a solid plan worked out yet. I know many say he's bucking their advice but I don't think that's true. He's wading thru all of the suggestions and seeing if they make sense to him. I think DB has given him a lot of good stuff to consider, & I really do think he IS considering it. If he feels it's pertinent & feasible then that's what he'll do. I've seen many people come on asking for advice then flat out fight it. I know some of you see what he's doing as just that, but I don't. I think Kim & even Sara have changed his direction on some of his thoughts, & while I don't agree with everything he is doing or does, I do give credit where credit is due & I do not see Jerry as a stubborn, unmoving individual....he moves if the arguement presented is valid in his eyes. That's more than many people will do. Tigerlily88 Face Hugger KY, USA 842 Posts Oh I agree, I believe he has no intention of getting licensed, and if he were, he would never be approved under the circumstances he is considering. Aside from my emotional outburst, my main point in bringing this up was to point out another very real concern that he should consider. Should he be caught, there are serious fines, and depending on the state and the animal welfare agencies in his area, he could also potentially face if he is not very careful. And again Jerry, just because you do not believe in the law, does not mean it does not believe in you. Jerrycnh Glider  119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily88
Oh I agree, I believe he has no intention of getting licensed, and if he were, he would never be approved under the circumstances he is considering. Aside from my emotional outburst, my main point in bringing this up was to point out another very real concern that he should consider. Should he be caught, there are serious fines, and depending on the state and the animal welfare agencies in his area, he could also potentially face if he is not very careful.
And again Jerry, just because you do not believe in the law, does not mean it does not believe in you.
It does mean, however, that I have a moral obligation to disobey. quote:
dr. Martin Luther king jr.
One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."
What makes it unjust? It is, as previous defined, an area of personal choice that does not infringe on the rights of other human beings. (and no, you don't have a /right/ to control how I handle my pets. Thats why they're /my/ pets.) DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts Here is my suggestion Jerry - if you want to TRULY leverage this thread for it's constructive benefits...I would suggest you focus on those portions of this thread. Look at the posts that have been shared with you that include data, references, advice, and detailed information to your situation. Bantering back and forth on your ideals and your ethics are NOT going to help your situation or the forum at large. It is overall going to bring an inflammatory nature back to this thread and we have made some semblance of positive traction. Let's keep that going and focus literally on what needs to be changed and considered. It's clear at this point and well before now that you have a different mentality and an end goal that is not going to deviate unless you see a logical (in your mind) reason to do so. I agree with previous posters that there are SEVERAL things lacking there but the debate with you is lost on legalities and other areas that you are not going to modify. SO, AGAIN...the purposes you are trying to obtain are best met by isolating the responses and discussion around the constructive intake and outgo of questions and answers. You cannot control what the other 10,000 members on this forum post or focus on (even if I agree with them wholeheartedly or not) but you CAN control what YOU focus on and derive from ongoing discussion. If you want to learn, that's how you should do it. Don't you agree? Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts 
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Here is my suggestion Jerry - if you want to TRULY leverage this thread for it's constructive benefits...I would suggest you focus on those portions of this thread.
Look at the posts that have been shared with you that include data, references, advice, and detailed information to your situation. Bantering back and forth on your ideals and your ethics are NOT going to help your situation or the forum at large. It is overall going to bring an inflammatory nature back to this thread and we have made some semblance of positive traction. Let's keep that going and focus literally on what needs to be changed and considered.
It's clear at this point and well before now that you have a different mentality and an end goal that is not going to deviate unless you see a logical (in your mind) reason to do so. I agree with previous posters that there are SEVERAL things lacking there but the debate with you is lost on legalities and other areas that you are not going to modify. SO, AGAIN...the purposes you are trying to obtain are best met by isolating the responses and discussion around the constructive intake and outgo of questions and answers. You cannot control what the other 10,000 members on this forum post or focus on (even if I agree with them wholeheartedly or not) but you CAN control what YOU focus on and derive from ongoing discussion. If you want to learn, that's how you should do it.
Don't you agree?
Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Here is my suggestion Jerry - if you want to TRULY leverage this thread for it's constructive benefits...I would suggest you focus on those portions of this thread.
Look at the posts that have been shared with you that include data, references, advice, and detailed information to your situation. Bantering back and forth on your ideals and your ethics are NOT going to help your situation or the forum at large. It is overall going to bring an inflammatory nature back to this thread and we have made some semblance of positive traction. Let's keep that going and focus literally on what needs to be changed and considered.
It's clear at this point and well before now that you have a different mentality and an end goal that is not going to deviate unless you see a logical (in your mind) reason to do so. I agree with previous posters that there are SEVERAL things lacking there but the debate with you is lost on legalities and other areas that you are not going to modify. SO, AGAIN...the purposes you are trying to obtain are best met by isolating the responses and discussion around the constructive intake and outgo of questions and answers. You cannot control what the other 10,000 members on this forum post or focus on (even if I agree with them wholeheartedly or not) but you CAN control what YOU focus on and derive from ongoing discussion. If you want to learn, that's how you should do it.
Don't you agree?
Fair enough. Here's what I've gotten so far from this thread: 1) Integration into a colony that has joeys under 8 weeks old in it are highly unlikely to succeed, as the mother glider's protective instincts are strong and she is therefore less tolerant of "invaders". Conversely, introduction a young joey into a new colony is the easiest, as the "receiving" colony does not see the joey as a threat and their nurturing instinct kicks in. 2) Female gliders cannot be counted on to help raise each other's joeys - at best, they respond indifferently or might occasionally help a litttle bit, and at worst they are a liability. It therefore falls to the male to do all the helping, and a single male can literally die of exhaustion if bouncing back and forth between too many females simultaneously. 3) Inbreeding should be prevented at all costs. Even one layer of inbreeding can cause severe physical problems. Inbreeding is best prevented by neutering all males 10 weeks and older as soon as the first joey reaches 10 weeks of age, but it is also possible (though not as recommended) to simply remove all the joeys from the parents (and in the case of males, their female siblings) at 10 weeks of age in order to eliminate the possibility of inbreeding. 4) The "wet method" of introductions can be used as a last resort, but is highly not recommended by the forum for any case other than a lone glider in desperate need of a playmate. 5) Integration one-at-a-time by putting the lowest heirarchy member of each colony in a third cage and then "adding" one glider at a time can help two colonies integrate more easily. 6) A spray bottle is a handy way to break up fights between two gliders meeting for the first time. 7) Regarding my long term goals for a pop 15 colony, they are going to definitely require an entire bedroom to themselves at that level in order to have enough space. Mixing and matching in multiple cages will be ineffective and likely cause them to be less friendly with each other in the long run, given how territorial gliders get about their cage space. It is also possible, in theory, for this to work for years and then /suddenly/ see an adult glider get kicked out of the colony, so a contingency plan needs to be in place regarding how to handle that situation if it happens. Am I missing anything? Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
Hey Jerry, I got a question for you now. How do you feel about Serenity now? I know when you came here you boasted about how in love you were. How taken you were because she was the best. What happened? Are you mental? Kim DB has given you numerous links to try and help you with what you wanted to know. all you tend to do is argue. Why did you bother posting anymore? You obviously are not going to get the support you want here. We aren't going to say sure, its a great idea to breed until you've reached your goal. And euthanize rejected or deformed joeys. Seriously dude? I'm going to say this because I haven't really got the time to entertain your bullshicaca and babysit you anymore. You in my opinion only Jerry...should have been swallowed! You've done nothing but piss everyone off here. You don't take advice, suggestions given to you. I'm not normally an angry person but you are bringing out the monster.
This post, and dooney's above it, are, to use DB's phrasing, not focused around "the constructive intake and outgo of questions and answers", and will therefore not be responded to beyond my acknowledging that I'm not responding to them. He's right, it takes two to tango, and I'm going to try to keep the discussion focused from here out. Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts Thank you! Please tell me the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train. I think something can finally be learned here. You can have your giant colony but you may have to change your plan around a bit. I have to run now but I'm sure Kim will be more than happy to help you out. She rocks. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
Hey Jerry, I got a question for you now. How do you feel about Serenity now? I know when you came here you boasted about how in love you were. How taken you were because she was the best. What happened? Are you mental? Kim DB has given you numerous links to try and help you with what you wanted to know. all you tend to do is argue. Why did you bother posting anymore? You obviously are not going to get the support you want here. We aren't going to say sure, its a great idea to breed until you've reached your goal. And euthanize rejected or deformed joeys. Seriously dude? I'm going to say this because I haven't really got the time to entertain your bullshicaca and babysit you anymore. You in my opinion only Jerry...should have been swallowed! You've done nothing but piss everyone off here. You don't take advice, suggestions given to you. I'm not normally an angry person but you are bringing out the monster.
This post, and dooney's above it, are, to use DB's phrasing, not focused around "the constructive intake and outgo of questions and answers", and will therefore not be responded to beyond my acknowledging that I'm not responding to them. He's right, it takes two to tango, and I'm going to try to keep the discussion focused from here out.
Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts Jerry, I've had a good while to think about my comment to you a couple of posts above. I'm woman enough to apologize for not acting like an adult. So, I do apologize for my ugly words to you. I really do hope you are getting the help you need. I only have three but just a few weeks ago, we intro'd a female to our two neutered boys. We took them into the bathroom (neutral place), put her on the floor and then Omi. He's the biggest. She ran right for him because she had no idea what another glider was. She scared him pretty good. He ran from her. Then was Kai's turn. He followed suit. Well, next day. Nobody was interested in each other. The next day, back to the bathroom and my daughter coaxed Omi into the pouch with Gypsy. There was crabbing. She put her hand in the middle of them to keep them separated and little by little pulled her hand back until they were asleep in the pouch together. Then we had to do Kai. He wanted nothing to do with her again. So, he got pushed into the pouch with them both. Actually we went a little too cavalier about it but we knew Omi would protect Kai. No fighting. They all fell asleep. We peaked in and she was laying on top of them. Apparently this is somewhat normal. So, she has staked her claim as colony leader. If one is taken out, she will come to the top of the pouch looking for the MIA. I can't imagine it being any different for more gliders. Just more time. I'd love to add another female eventually but I'm happy with my trio. This is my experience with intro's. I wanted to link my thread because I was literally walked through it by the members here. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
1) Integration into a colony that has joeys under 8 weeks old in it are highly unlikely to succeed, as the mother glider's protective instincts are strong and she is therefore less tolerant of "invaders". Conversely, introduction a young joey into a new colony is the easiest, as the "receiving" colony does not see the joey as a threat and their nurturing instinct kicks in.
Changes to any breeding colony can cause joey losses, fights, etc. A mom that has joeys IP and a Dad will be more protective and consider "outsiders" a threat more than normal IMHO. I don't know if that concept is restricted to joeys under 8 weeks though - it really would apply to breeding gliders period. Hormones and territorial behaviors are higher. I would agree that joeys are easier to introduce to joeys. They are more receptive, less hormonal, less fearful of other gliders. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
2) Female gliders cannot be counted on to help raise each other's joeys - at best, they respond indifferently or might occasionally help a litttle bit, and at worst they are a liability. It therefore falls to the male to do all the helping, and a single male can literally die of exhaustion if bouncing back and forth between too many females simultaneously.
In the wild females help other females raise joeys and it has happened in captive bred situations too. They "babysit" for one another. The thing that was important to know here is that as you said "they cannot be counted on" and sometimes the opposite happens - stealing joeys, killing them, getting rejected due to injury or otherwise. I do not believe that a male will literally get exhausted to death by having to help too many females, I think the end result would fall on the mom's and the potential demise of the joeys. The joeys being left alone without a warm body can write them a death sentence. I think your Dad would likely say "eff this" and do his thing before dying in a pouch to keep a baby warm. On that note though - it would be stressful. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
3) Inbreeding should be prevented at all costs. Even one layer of inbreeding can cause severe physical problems. Inbreeding is best prevented by neutering all males 10 weeks and older as soon as the first joey reaches 10 weeks of age, but it is also possible (though not as recommended) to simply remove all the joeys from the parents (and in the case of males, their female siblings) at 10 weeks of age in order to eliminate the possibility of inbreeding.
Yes. Major health implications from inbreeding. Safest way is to remove the ability for parents to breed with their children by neutering or separating. Likewise, consider that joeys will also mate one another so the same applies to the offspring even in a different cage. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
4) The "wet method" of introductions can be used as a last resort, but is highly not recommended by the forum for any case other than a lone glider in desperate need of a playmate.
I have intro'd several gliders and have never had to use the wet intro method. Staying calm and patient in a neutral environment with scent orientation prep has worked the best for me. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
5) Integration one-at-a-time by putting the lowest heirarchy member of each colony in a third cage and then "adding" one glider at a time can help two colonies integrate more easily.
Always one on one intros. Some people start with the dominant glider first, I start with the most submissive. When things get choppy, you can also use that first intro'd glider to work through scent orientation. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
6) A spray bottle is a handy way to break up fights between two gliders meeting for the first time.
I use fleece and pull them apart. I also think it's optimal to have two people involved in the intro if you can. I always take a source of water with me "just in case" but have never had to use it...even when two of mine balled up. I got a single bite for my troubles but there were no injuries and literally it took a millisecond to pull them apart. It was no biggie at all. I am also a fan of temper-testing the situation by having one person hold one glider in fleece and the other doing the same thing with the other glider and seeing how they take to each others tail being near them. If they bite the tail...I back of intro a little. If they grab it, I know to be prepared and cautious, if they just sniff and act curious or indifferent...I know intro will likely go well. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
7) Regarding my long term goals for a pop 15 colony, they are going to definitely require an entire bedroom to themselves at that level in order to have enough space. Mixing and matching in multiple cages will be ineffective and likely cause them to be less friendly with each other in the long run, given how territorial gliders get about their cage space. It is also possible, in theory, for this to work for years and then /suddenly/ see an adult glider get kicked out of the colony, so a contingency plan needs to be in place regarding how to handle that situation if it happens.
I think the key here is that neutering adds to the success of integrating cages down the road (bearing in mind that it will be more difficult to integrate your breeding gliders even after they are neutered in my opinion...not impossible...just harder than gliders that have not bred and garnered behavioral trends). I have taken two cages of non-breeding adult gliders and slowly integrated them with no issues. You CAN successfully integrate cages of non-breeding gliders...just be patient and cognizant of their colony dynamics. Don't assume that if you have cages that are established...that you will never get them together. Also, you didn't mention this but I would consider both males and females in your colony plans. Neutered males are awesome pets and a little more predictable without the 28 day heat cycles. JMO. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
Am I missing anything?
I feel like we are....but still working. Need to go back and double check. Anyone else - please feel free to chime in on my advice as well as any other items that we missed in this list. Just keep it constructive please. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Yep, I just feel like something else is missing from all that we have discussed. But I suppose it will come up again eventually. We have talked about a LOT in this thread! LOL
Oh one thing we didn't mention was diet...but I am skeered to ask about it! I will add this - pregnant and nursing mothers need additional protein. Jerry, depending on what diet you feed - you need to consider that extra protein to increase the viability of offspring.
I'm open to suggestion, sadly it seems like my dietary "plan", such as it is (more instinct than plan, really) is working, because one of my "cinnamons" is practically not cinnamon anymore. The other is the neurotic one, she still isn't eating as much over the stress, but I think it's safe to say at this point that I probably have two more greys. But yes, despite that mark of success, it's safe to say that my dietary plan for my gliders is a topic that would be met with consternation here. They eat pretty much everything - chicken, ham, shrimp, and scrambled eggs are their main sources of protein, and apples, oranges, cashews, corn, sliced pears, grapes, cantaloupe, strawberries, carrots, blackberries, pineapples, and honeydew are their other regular meals (occasionally they get something more veggie like, IE green beans or salad with dressing). They also, of course, get a regular pellet diet with papaya from Exotic Nutrition, and they have vitamins spread over their food every three days. I have /tried/ a couple of times to make HPW, and the gliders have eaten the results, but I don't think what they ate really qualified. :) I really need to find a source other than Pocket Pets for that powdery HPW mix. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts Jerry - it's actually not THAT bad. Since you mentioned HPW Complete, would you consider Original HPW? I buy that from www.thepamperedglider.com and my gliders LOVE it and have done exceptionally well on the diet (remembering that I have breeding gliders). You are already feeding a lot of good fruit variety. Just a thought and certainly only my preference, there are other diets to consider. I like that High Protein Wombaroo (the main ingredient) has been used in Australia for 30ish years. You could also consider the Australian Wombaroo diet since you would then only really have to add the powder mix (you blend it with water I think) and it mimics the diet that the captive aussie gliders get. HPW Complete a.k.a. glider gravy can also be purchased directly from Critter Love (ie Peggy Brewer) and that will eliminate the PP middle man if you want to use that diet. (Note: Peggy also created the Original HPW diet plan that is a mixture of HPW and other ingredients but HPW itself is a supplement that is made for marsupials.) HPW Complete does not have HPW in it. I know that can be a bit confusing. Just some thoughts, I don't have any personal experience with HPW Complete - hence why I offered up the diet that I DO have experience. There are plenty of people happy with either or both. Moving on... I would definitely pick up the veggie variety though...add some peas, snap/snow peas, occasional spinach/leafy veggies, sweet potato, cucumber, zucchini, and things like that. Veggies are just as (if not more) important than fruits (especially if you have a high sugar staple). Just try to do half fruit and half veggie if you can. I didn't see watermelon on your list (it's a FAVE at my house when I give it and it's cheap!), kiwi, mango, and fresh papaya are also hits if that helps. Try to keep the highly acidic fruits a little less often - especially with joeys since it can upset tummies. I would skip on the salad dressing though - but you knew I was going to say that, didn't you? LOL! On the protein, mine love grilled chicken and eggs (scrambled, boiled, etc). Mine do not care for shrimp so that was an easy decision for me. I do not feed mine ham. They do not get sandwich meat period. If you don't want to change your diet, maybe just add more protein during any breeding and nursing as well as keep the yogurt constant for probiotics and calcium content...just in case. I have seen gliders eat AROUND a white speck on a pellet before. Cracked me up!
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