just wanted to share my excitement - my first breeding pair is hopefully expecting! I didn't really expect it to happen so soon, as Tabby's only a bit over 7 1/2 months old... and I'm a little nervous that things might not work out the first time due to her young age... but they were definitely going at it all night on the 18th and 19th, meaning Tabitha will most likely have something IP in about a week and a half.

I'm really hoping all goes well for them... and keeping my fingers crossed that I might even win the plat lottery, hehe. I wasn't actually looking to breed for plat - originally, I wanted a standard gray girl from *really* clean lines, but finding one that wasn't out of a colored line one way or another just wasn't happening so I decided to consider WFB and mosaic girls.

I re-ruled out mosaics pretty much instantly, though - basically, the second I went back to look at the origin points, lol. of the three, one is where the sterile lines came from and the other two are also leu origin points (technically, mother white's line is only an origin for mosaics, not leus... but it got bred into an original leu line very early on so she pops up in leu pedigrees every time you turn around).

the prince/sapphire pairing that's all over leu pedigrees and tied mother white's line to leu lines also tied cereal (WFB origin point) to that same leu line... but that's the only overlap between leu and WFB starting points. I was able to find a WFB girl where the only common ancestor she and Lemmy had was cereal and he was far enough back in both pedigrees for them to be unrelated on a kinship chart :D. (pedigree for my future joeys)

anyway, I picked Tabitha simply because she was WFB and she and Lemmy were very genetically compatible... but as an added bonus, she's 25% cremino het (irrelevant to me) and 50-66% plat het (dad is 100% plat het; mom is 50-100% plat het - it's a quad with three sisters that started as 50% plat hets but at least one has proven out; we just don't know if Tabby's mom is one that proved). since Lemmy is full-on leu, it means that *if* Tabby's plat het proves out, I can get actual platinum joeys.

as for why I'm breeding a leucistic glider to a glider that isn't het for it (since it seems to confuse people that a "newbie" breeder would choose that pairing unless it was because they didn't understand that it wouldn't produce leucistics, lol)...

a lot of inbreeding happened back in the day (and what we see of it in pedigrees is, I suspect, just the tip of the iceberg due to Helen Moreno's records being "eaten by prairie dogs" and it being known that inbreeding happened on her watch) and the colored lines as a whole are all still pretty messy. since the goal of the breeding community is to continue lowering COIs, it's important that people continue to out-breed from time to time and introduce new genetics to various colored lines. I DO want leu babies and intend to get them - I'm just taking the round-about way to get there, hehe. I'll be using Lemmy and Tabby's offspring to make my second breeding pair (I'm wanting twin girls to pair to a leu as unrelated to Lemmy as possible)... but with my first pair, my only goal was to produce 100% leu hets with a very low COI. having some be WFB or possibly even platinum on top of meeting my original goal is just icing on the cake, hehe.

Best of luck!

quote:

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Originally posted by Imbrium

just wanted to share my excitement - my first breeding pair is hopefully expecting! I didn't really expect it to happen so soon, as Tabby's only a bit over 7 1/2 months old... and I'm a little nervous that things might not work out the first time due to her young age... but they were definitely going at it all night on the 18th and 19th, meaning Tabitha will most likely have something IP in about a week and a half.

I'm really hoping all goes well for them... and keeping my fingers crossed that I might even win the plat lottery, hehe. I wasn't actually looking to breed for plat - originally, I wanted a standard gray girl from *really* clean lines, but finding one that wasn't out of a colored line one way or another just wasn't happening so I decided to consider WFB and mosaic girls.

I re-ruled out mosaics pretty much instantly, though - basically, the second I went back to look at the origin points, lol. of the three, one is where the sterile lines came from and the other two are also leu origin points (technically, mother white's line is only an origin for mosaics, not leus... but it got bred into an original leu line very early on so she pops up in leu pedigrees every time you turn around).

the prince/sapphire pairing that's all over leu pedigrees and tied mother white's line to leu lines also tied cereal (WFB origin point) to that same leu line... but that's the only overlap between leu and WFB starting points. I was able to find a WFB girl where the only common ancestor she and Lemmy had was cereal and he was far enough back in both pedigrees for them to be unrelated on a kinship chart :D. (pedigree for my future joeys)

anyway, I picked Tabitha simply because she was WFB and she and Lemmy were very genetically compatible... but as an added bonus, she's 25% cremino het (irrelevant to me) and 50-66% plat het (dad is 100% plat het; mom is 50-100% plat het - it's a quad with three sisters that started as 50% plat hets but at least one has proven out; we just don't know if Tabby's mom is one that proved). since Lemmy is full-on leu, it means that *if* Tabby's plat het proves out, I can get actual platinum joeys.

as for why I'm breeding a leucistic glider to a glider that isn't het for it (since it seems to confuse people that a "newbie" breeder would choose that pairing unless it was because they didn't understand that it wouldn't produce leucistics, lol)...

a lot of inbreeding happened back in the day (and what we see of it in pedigrees is, I suspect, just the tip of the iceberg due to Helen Moreno's records being "eaten by prairie dogs" and it being known that inbreeding happened on her watch) and the colored lines as a whole are all still pretty messy. since the goal of the breeding community is to continue lowering COIs, it's important that people continue to out-breed from time to time and introduce new genetics to various colored lines. I DO want leu babies and intend to get them - I'm just taking the round-about way to get there, hehe. I'll be using Lemmy and Tabby's offspring to make my second breeding pair (I'm wanting twin girls to pair to a leu as unrelated to Lemmy as possible)... but with my first pair, my only goal was to produce 100% leu hets with a very low COI. having some be WFB or possibly even platinum on top of meeting my original goal is just icing on the cake, hehe.

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They are very pretty suggies so you know any baby they have is going to be an absolute cutie that you will want to spoil rotten.

I hope everything works out. You seem very knowedgable, but everything I've read says females shouldn't be bred until they are a year old because they are still growing and there is a strong risk of canabalization/rejection.
So again, it seems like you have a good amount of knowledge - what made you decide to let them breed early? Not an attack, just wondering:)

mostly a combination of trusting the recommendations of Debby from TPG (the (*very* large-scale) breeder I got both of them from) and a concern that they wouldn't do well as solo gliders for such a long stretch of time (they really weren't eating very well and were showing subtle signs of loneliness during the quarantine period). Tabby will be 10 1/2 months old by the time the joey(s) come OOP, which isn't too far off from the 12 month mark... and the info is fairly conflicting anyway - don't breed before she's a year old vs wait until she's old enough that she won't have babies oop before she's a year old (which would be 9 mos); some people feel it's fine for them to "grow up" together as long as the male isn't much older than the female (and preferably a bit younger); some feel it doesn't really matter - just let them be together and they'll breed when they're ready to breed (again, as long as you're not putting a really young female with a male that's a good bit older, since you don't want him to be sexually mature and her to be too small to insist that "no means no"). Lemmy and Tabby are only about a month apart age-wise and are quite close in weight, which is why Debby felt it would be fine to go ahead and put them together so that they wouldn't have to be solo gliders and could start bonding with each other. they were obviously significantly happier once they were together, so I was comfortable sticking with that plan.

They are adorable....so much good luck to you!!! Keep us updated!!!

Best of luck! Make sure to have a joey rejection kit ready just in case! Especially since it's their 1st one!

Congrats!!




-Kasi

oh, don't worry, I bought a rejected joey kit from Suz before I even got the first of the two gliders for my breeding pair! in fact, it was literally the first or second purchase I made after deciding to become a breeder (the other being parts for PVC cages). it was about $100 that I really hope turns out to be a complete waste because I never need it, lol... but there's no way I would've started breeding without having a fully stocked rejection kit - god knows it's not something you want to have to scramble to put together in an emergency! not only is rejection not terribly uncommon with the first joey(s), it can happen unexpectedly at some point down the road even with a breeding pair that's been successful in the past. there's absolutely no excuse for a breeder not having a rejected joey kit.

if the worst should happen (or second-worst, rather, cannibalism being the first), I may need to come to you guys for moral support/reassurance/advice to questions that haven't already been answered by my research on dealing with rejected joeys... but I'll at least have all the supplies.

though I do have one question regarding rejected joeys... would it bother them to have two different caretakers (ie taking shifts)? I have trouble falling asleep and once I do, I tend to pass the heck out - I just don't trust myself to be capable of *reliably* waking up every hour or two to feed a joey. however, I'm primarily nocturnal and, assuming it wouldn't upset or stress the joey too much, my (retired, animal loving) neighbor would be more than happy to joey-sit during the day while I slept to ensure that no feedings were missed. unless there's a reason not to that I'm unaware of, it seems like a perfect solution because there'd be no fear of anyone ever sleeping through an alarm.

Wow! You confused me as I have not yet studied sugar genetics. We bought our pair and knew they weren't related so it didn't really matter to me.

I love platinums. They are amazing. If you have a boy, what would you sell it for? I'm interested in finding a platinum to breed to one of my babies out of our current pair. Their next joeys should be OOP about the same time as yours.


Also, the people we bought them from ( this is their 3rd set of joeys) said that they rejected their first set. They were then raised successfully until time to be sold.

quote:

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Originally posted by Imbrium



would it bother them to have two different caretakers (ie taking shifts)?

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It shouldn't, especially assuming the other caretaker would most likely begin doing so very early on, which is when you would likely need the most help anyway. The joeys should respond just as they would to any person (i.e. you) handling them from that early of a stage and grow accustomed to both of you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cthobby1999

I love platinums. They are amazing. If you have a boy, what would you sell it for? I'm interested in finding a platinum to breed to one of my babies out of our current pair. Their next joeys should be OOP about the same time as yours.

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I'm really not sure yet, figured I'd look into pricing if it actually became relevant :P.

honestly, there's a good chance (assuming the first joey(s) even make it) that I won't actually be selling any joeys until their third or fourth time (the exception being that if I got twins the first two times, I'd have one joey left to sell). my Hurricane is currently a solo glider, so holding back a joey to become her cagemate once it's old enough is a priority. also, my best friend fell head-over-heels in love with gliders from the first moment he met mine, so I'll be giving him a pair as soon as I can. I can certainly let you know if I luck out and get a plat boy early on, though. (I'd appreciate it if you'd send an email to imbri83@yahoo.com if you're interested so that I can file it in a "waiting list" folder... fwiw, being on a waiting list with me isn't a firm commitment/doesn't require a deposit - it just helps me keep track of who might be interested in what so I can remember who I need to notify when I find out what my joeys are and determines the order in which I offer certain joeys to people if more than one person is looking for the same thing.)

in the event that I ever have a rejected joey that has to be hand-raised, they're going to be sold as "pet only"/neutered if male (with the fact that they were rejected disclosed to potential buyers) - while it's not really thoroughly proven that I know of, there definitely seems to be a link between a glider being rejected as a joey and them rejecting their own joeys as adults (which makes sense - not having been raised by glider parents means they never learned by example how to be one). only the best, healthiest, most qualified gliders should be bred... which in my mind makes rejected joeys unsuitable for use in a breeding program.

I will email you soon.


I do agree that is the parents have a history of rejecting joeys then their offspring should be neutured and not
Bred and the parents should be removed from breeding,
Especially the mother. I do however believe that the first joeys she has, even rejected, should be sold normally. It is not uncommon for the mothers, one especially as young as she is, to reject joeys the first, and maybe even the second time. Those should not have to be neutered because of the parents inexperience. She should get
The hang of it the next time she has joeys. If she doesn't, cut the cord.

Just my 2 cents.

I differ in opinion on the part about selling the joeys normally - whatever the seeming link is between being rejected and then rejecting their own joeys, it seems far more likely that the issue is environmental/learned behavior rather than genetic, which would mean it's simply the lack of being raised by their own species that matters - the reason WHY they were rejected (ie first time parents vs outright bad parents vs medical issue that the parents were somehow aware of) would have little or no relevance to the outcome of a pattern of rejection. bottom line, breeding a glider who was rejected as a joey qualifies as "risky" in my book and it's not something I'm willing to endorse by selling a rejected joey as breeding stock.

as for the parents of the rejected joeys, I believe in the "three strikes" rule. many gliders have failed at being first time parents and gone on to be wonderful parents once they got the hang of it, and sometimes gliders still don't quite have their act together the second time around... but if the first three pregnancies are ALL unsuccessful (pulled (once confirmed as IP), cannibalized and/or rejected joeys), it's time for daddy to get neutered and the pair to retire to "pet only" status.

I see your point. I was thinking about genetic and didn't really think about the obvious.

With cattle, we usually go on a two strike plan . Our horses will likely just get one strike because foals are extremely hard to bottle feed.

ROFL... yeah, I wouldn't wanna mess around with "three strikes" on animals larger than I was!

bit of an update... 2-3 weeks ago, I kept thinking I saw what looked like a little baby bump on Tabby's tummy; sure enough - she's preggers! she's got one joey - it's about lima bean sized now and it's become very easy to spot it. I'm really glad she's only got one and not twins - hopefully it'll be less stressful for her that way. she's got this dazed and confused look on her face a lot... but then she turns around and gets into really sneaky/crafty trouble (then, of course, she gives you this adorable and innocent "I didn't know what I was doing, I'm just crazy with hormones" look, lol).

she got loose the other afternoon in the bedroom and we couldn't find her, so we left the apartment with her still loose (room's glider-proofed and we knew she'd come back out when she woke up for the night)... came back a couple hours later and she had:
a) turned my boyfriend's laptop on
b) opened/dug around in his files somehow
c) selected a song and played it with windows media player
...
seriously. oh, and she also knows how to turn his desktop on.

he was SURE the last thing he did before we left was to close all the programs running on his laptop and put it in sleep mode (though he left it open) and when we got home, a song had been played. crazy genius pregger glider!

quote:

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Originally posted by Imbrium

bit of an update... 2-3 weeks ago, I kept thinking I saw what looked like a little baby bump on Tabby's tummy; sure enough - she's preggers! she's got one joey - it's about lima bean sized now and it's become very easy to spot it. I'm really glad she's only got one and not twins - hopefully it'll be less stressful for her that way. she's got this dazed and confused look on her face a lot... but then she turns around and gets into really sneaky/crafty trouble (then, of course, she gives you this adorable and innocent "I didn't know what I was doing, I'm just crazy with hormones" look, lol).

she got loose the other afternoon in the bedroom and we couldn't find her, so we left the apartment with her still loose (room's glider-proofed and we knew she'd come back out when she woke up for the night)... came back a couple hours later and she had:
a) turned my boyfriend's laptop on
b) opened/dug around in his files somehow
c) selected a song and played it with windows media player
...
seriously. oh, and she also knows how to turn his desktop on.

he was SURE the last thing he did before we left was to close all the programs running on his laptop and put it in sleep mode (though he left it open) and when we got home, a song had been played. crazy genius pregger glider!

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I am telling you these little gliders are smarter than they let on, Menchi has successfully turned my cells face to face calls on to talk with mom. Tali knows how to unzip the bonding pouch from the inside (seriously didn't know they would think of that). Pretty soon they are going to rule the world.

Tabby can't properly unzip a bonding pouch from the inside... but she definitely knows how to force the zipper apart to escape. suffice it to say, I no longer try to keep her pouched when it's past her wake-up time even if it's only for 5-10 minutes!

I have horrible news - there will be no Lemmy and Tabitha babies. a little after midnight the morning of June 5th, I went to feed the gliders because they were due to wake up and found Tabby lying on the bottom of her cage in a puddle of urine and somewhat cool to the touch; she was barely responsive. I had last seen her around 8 am and she appeared fine and healthy at the time, so it was a horrendous shock to see her in such a state.

the moment I saw her condition, I yelled to my boyfriend in the other room that we had to go to the emergency vet NOW. I wrapped her in a blanket, warmed a heating pad, attempted to get her to drink a smidge of water (using a 1 cc syringe and a feeding tip) with no success, stuck Lemmy down my shirt and we were out the door towards the closest e-vet that had an exotics specialist on call that night. Jay held her in his lap for the car ride, making sure the heating pad didn't get too hot. the warmth and companionship seemed to perk her up just a tiny bit during the car ride and made me hopeful for a moment... but when we were a few minutes away from the vet, she started stretching/arching backwards unnaturally in a way that made me think it could be some sort of seizure. she passed away literally a minute or two before we pulled up to the vet.

the exotics vet hadn't quite arrived yet when we got there; they took her to the back and determined that her joey was still alive... the women (the vet tech and the non-exotics vet) seemed desperate to come up with something that could be done to try to save the joey's life even if it was a long shot (because the joey had a strong heartbeat and was very much alive still); though it broke my heart to lose Tabby and have no choice but to give up on her joey, I told them not to bother - at 5 weeks premature, I knew there was no way the joey could survive without Tabitha even with expert hospital care. there was nothing more I could do but keep it together and drive us all home. I'm still fairly lost on the hows and whys of her passing and Lemmy, Jay and I are still struggling to cope with the loss of our precious little Tabby-girl.

I showed Lemmy his wifey's body to help him understand what happened when she wasn't around any more and then wrapped her back up in the cozy fleece blanket she died in, placed her in a large tupperware container and put her body in the refrigerator. I sent a text to Debby of The Pet Glider (where Lemmy and Tabby came from) to tell her the horrible news... she got back to me a little after 7 am and advised me on the best place in Houston to take Tabitha for a necropsy (since TPG is located in Houston as well).

not long after that, I noticed Lemmy seemed a little bloated... in hindsight, I'm sure it was just that he'd eaten recently and I was paranoid due to his cagemate passing away. I kept an eye on him as Debby suggested, gave him .1cc of simethicone in case it was gas and made him a vet appointment for later that day. he got a fecal float and smear and they even x-rayed him (at no extra cost... I think they felt bad because I was dropping Tabby's body off when I brought him in for the appointment) to check for gas and/or an obstruction. fortunately, all of Lemmy's test results were great and he was in good health.

necropsy results showed that Tabby had a liver infection and her liver was enlarged... I'm baffled that she could have such a serious problem without me noticing that anything was wrong and curious how a nine month old glider could get and succumb to such an infection so quickly. if I had to guess, I'd say the pregnancy probably played a role somehow. I retrieved her body after the necropsy to have her cremated so that I could keep her ashes in the glider room. unfortunately, they were unable to determine for me whether Tiger (the joey) was male or female... so I guess that'll remain a mystery (as will whether or not Tabitha would've proved out as a carrier for plat).

when I decided to become a breeder, I knew I was signing up for a certain amount of heartbreak... and I was as prepared as one can be to lose my first joey or two to cannibalization, rejection, etc... but I never in a million years thought that I'd get hit with one of the most devastating losses a breeder can face before I ever even saw my first joey. losing a baby you haven't or have just met is very different from losing a glider that you're fully bonded to. Tabby was so full of life and personality that I can't imagine replacing her... though I know I'll have to soon enough, as I can't have Lemmy living alone indefinitely. I've started to sort through pedigrees again in search of a new wifey for him.

the other night, Hurricane and Hobbes managed to escape their cage... I couldn't find them right away, as the room was a bit of a mess and they'd curled up somewhere to sleep by the time I noticed them missing shortly after sunrise. I knew the glider room was safe/glider-proofed, so I didn't look too hard - I just left their cage open to give them access to water and their pouch and such and figured they'd come out sooner or later and I'd catch them. Hobbes and Lemmy had a history of appearing to hate each other and instigating through the cage mesh if one of them got on the outside of the other's cage... so imagine my surprise when, around noon, I went back to the room to check on Lemmy/search for them and found them INSIDE LEMMY'S POUCH WITH HIM (apparently they wiggled open the door to his cage to get inside the same way they did theirs to get out). they looked so cute and happy all bunched up together... but of course I had to separate them ASAP due to Lemmy being intact, Hurricane being a "pet only" female and female-intact male-neutered male trios being right up near the top of the "worst ideas ever" list. I wish I could keep them together so Lemmy could have companions while he grieves... but as awful as this whole experience has been, I'm not ready to neuter him and give up on breeding.

after I put Hurricane and Hobbes in their own cage and started fixing the doors to thwart a repeat escape, Lemmy came out of his pouch and was clinging to the side of his cage. he started barking incessantly, which broke my heart because I knew he was looking for either Tabby or some substitute snuggles, so of course I took him out and kept him with me the rest of the day. I feel so bad for him - I know he's confused and lonely and no matter how much attention I give him, it's not the same as having another glider.

RIP
Tabitha - 9/5/12-6/5/13
Tiger - conceived 4/18-19/13; 4 weeks IP at TOD
glide free, little ones - you'll always be remembered and missed... and even though I know that everything happens for a reason, I'll always wish there were something more I could've done.

I'm so very sorry for your losses, Jennifer, I can't imagine how terrible you feel. I know it is difficult, but try not to go over the what-ifs in your head. You did everything that could have been done and then some.

yeah, I know... and while it feels like the necropsy results left as many questions as answers, the one reassurance I did get was that I don't have to feel I'm to blame. she was eating a nutritious diet (original HPW with a wide variety of fruits and veggies) and she and Lemmy had been getting an extra helping of everything ever since I first saw them mating back in mid-april to ensure that my pregnant little girly was getting enough extra food. she had a good living environment and got loads of attention.

with no visible symptoms and no discernible weight loss (she was gaining slightly; however, never having had a pregnant glider before, I don't know if she was gaining as much as she should've been (since gaining less than she should while preggers would be akin to losing weight when not pregnant)), I don't imagine a vet would've caught the issues during a routine check-up or seen anything that might've prompted them to do the sort of tests that would be needed in order to determine that she had a liver infection.

at the most, if I had *happened* to get her a check-up at the exact right time (something I couldn't have known was necessary considering she went to the vet for a check-up when I got her at the end of february, went for a check-up again in early april and then went back three days later because I'd seen Hurricane and Lemmy dry-heaving (hadn't been able to determine whether Tabby was doing so as well before I got them all to the vet), which turned out to be an issue with me not knowing the signs that an eggplant has become "questionable"), the vet *might* have caught her running a fever (since that tends to go hand-in-hand with infections) and prescribed a broad-spectrum antibiotic... but that probably wouldn't have been effective and there's no guarantee she would've held out long enough for tests and cultures to be done to determine where the infection was and which targeted antibiotic would be best for it.

I do wish I'd found her sooner that night, though. in the 3-4 hours before I went to feed everyone dinner, I'd intended more than once to go nab Lemmy and Tabby for some bonding pouch time but got distracted and forgot to grab them before I headed out on an errand or two. given that she went from looking healthy and normal to dying in 15-17 hours, I seriously doubt that being able to get her to the vet a couple hours earlier would've bought enough time for them to figure out what was wrong and save her... but we could've at least kept her more comfortable. I feel awful that she spent who knows how long lying in a puddle of her own urine on the bottom of the cage, unable to summon the strength to climb up to the pouch. I wish I could've cleaned and warmed her up sooner... and a vet could've at least medicated her a bit (for potential pain, and also I suspected when she wouldn't take water on our way out the door to the e-vet even though she looked a bit dehydrated that she'd probably need sub-q fluids).

I'm trying not to beat myself up over that, though. I didn't get *nearly* enough time with my precious, precocious, spring-loaded, face hugging WFB girly... and I miss that truly *gorgeous* face something fierce... but dwelling on what could've gone differently can't bring her back.

although she lived a mere nine months and only spent a bit over three months of that time with me, I know I gave her a great life for as long as I had the chance. she was loved, pampered, spoiled and fawned over; much more pet than breeding stock. she loved to give face-hugs whenever she could catch someone off-guard. she loved to shirt-dive, bra-trained herself and taught Lemmy the same - when Lemmy went to the vet after she died and I handed him to the vet tech (who he'd never met before), the first thing he did was crawl up to her collar and invite himself down the inside of her shirt :P. she loved to hang out in my shirt, peek out my collar and just watch me do whatever I was doing. she abused her pregnancy to get away with causing all sorts of trouble.

I miss the hell out of my girly, but I accept that not everything is reasonably preventable and that sometimes there's really nothing you could've done differently... and even if there was, what's done is done - blaming yourself and dwelling on a mistake can't undo it; all you can do is learn from the bad experience and strive to do better in the future. I learned to pay more attention to my "mommy" instinct (which had been telling me all evening to go visit with her and Lemmy). I rushed her to an exotics e-vet (even if we couldn't get there in time) and I got a necropsy, so I got the most important stuff right even if it doesn't change the outcome.

what matters most to me is that she didn't die in the heart-breaking condition I found her in. she got cleaned up/dried off, warmed up and snuggled in a blanket. while she wasn't all that responsive, she was lucid enough to know that Jay and I - her "mommy" and "daddy" - were with her (as was her baby-daddy, Lemmy), showing her love and affection and comforting her as she passed away. in the end, she knew she was loved and she didn't die alone; while we weren't ready to accept that it's what we were doing, we at least got to say our goodbyes to her. I know she knew we were there and I know she felt better (emotionally if not physically) to have us loving on her throughout that final car ride.

How awful. I'm so sorry to hear of your losses. Glide free babies.

Good luck!!!

I Amos very sorry I know how it feels to loose a baby, I have lost mine almosttwomo ths ago and I still have times where I just cry, but you can't beat yourself up over it and like you said at least she had her final moments with you. Good luck with your other little ones and give them a little more love. Glide free little angles...

thank you all for the condolences. it breaks my heart to lose my little girl so soon after we'd *truly* bonded and I'll always miss her. she was so precocious and devious... yet a total cuddle-bug. I'm glad I got to know and love her for the time I did.

Priscilla Price has been emailing me to talk about the necropsy results and wanting to help me find a new girl for Lemmy (for obvious reasons, I'm sure she's eager to confirm that whatever the cause was, it wasn't in any way genetic - Tabby's "parents" are a quad at TPG that produces a lot of gliders sold as breeding stock, so if a genetic problem cropped up in the line, there would be a lot of breeders to inform and damage control to run)... I've also been chatting with Debby Mountjoy of TPG as she's the one I dealt with when I got Lemmy, Tabby and then Hobbes (Hobbes is a neutered male that I got for Hurricane - she was doing fine as a solo glider for a long time, then suddenly started lashing out at me and behaving like she didn't like or trust me... which was my cue to abandon the plan to get her a Lemmy/Tabby joey as a cagemate and get her a new companion ASAP (which fixed the behavioral issues)) and we'd already vaguely discussed plans to find Lemmy a new mate. I've gotta say, for being such a large-scale breeder, my dealings with TPG have always had an impressively personal feel to them.

as for Priscilla and the necropsy, she asked if I could send her a copy of the report for her vet to look at (which I actually didn't even think to get when I retrieved Tabby's body and was told the results - it kinda went in the "I can't deal with this now and it'll still be there for me later" pile)... fortunately, my new vet - the one that did the autopsy - IS Priscilla/TPG's vet, so I'm going to see if I can set something up where I can give the vet permission to release my gliders' medical records to TPG/discuss them with Priscilla. this was my first necropsy and the results I was told were rather vague; I'm not even sure I'd know how to break down a necropsy report well enough to satisfy my curiosity or know what questions to ask the vet - it's definitely a burden lifted to have Priscilla, with her insane amount of glider experience, helping me make sense of it all.

I feel a little lost right now on the breeder thing; I'm not quite sure where I want to go from here. originally, I wanted to out-breed lemmy to a standard gray from squeaky clean lines, but finding a standard that's not the product of a colored line started to seem impossible so I eventually widened my search to WFB girls. I didn't even start getting excited about her possible plat het until after I'd made arrangements to purchase her - at the time, I didn't know all that much about the plat/leu gene interaction because it wasn't something I was planning to incorporate into my breeding program. I also had no idea at the time how ruby leus were produced as, again, I hadn't bothered to track down the info.

fate has decided to push the "restart" button on the pairing process for me... but this time I know a lot more about glider genetics and am seeing/considering a lot of options that never crossed my mind the first time. I'm leaning towards a cremino to produce ruby het joeys (standards that are guaranteed carriers for both cremino and leu), as I'd love to breed creminos at some point as well - producing ruby leu hets with my first pairing will make it an option to set up a second pairing later that can produce creminos, leus and/or ruby leus. it's gonna be even more work this time than last to sort through all the possible matches and pick out the right girl for him... which I really don't mind, as it gives me something positive to do to stop me from dwelling on Tabby too much.