Hey guys,

Im hand picking my second breeding pair and wanted some input, The male is Platinum 50% Leu Het (possible mosaic, he just came OOP a week ago). The female is Creamino 33% Leu Het

(I made the test with the males sibling bc the breeder hasnt entered him yet)
www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=26030

Any concerns or things i did wrong?

Actually I switched the male, I think i like the genetics on this new one i found alot more

Platinum 100% Leu Het 50% Albino Het

Plus he is a little cheaper and i would be paying for shipping either way

Here is a post with chart a member made. She researched the genetics.http://sugarglidergenetics.weebly.com/breeder-reference-chart.html

I'm a little confused by this pairing. Are you looking to only get hets?

Hets or leus nice both are het for leu.

Resa

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Originally posted by Tigerlily88

I'm a little confused by this pairing. Are you looking to only get hets?

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Maybe i didnt make it clear or am misunderstanding something. The male is an actual platinum and the female is an actual creamino. The male is also Het at 100% Leu 50% Albino, the Female is also Het 33% Leu.

edit: which to my understanding means I have a higher chance of getting a creamino or platinum out of the pair, a decent chance of getting a leu, a okay chance of getting a albino, and a bleh chance of getting a standard

Right, so you have a 33% chance of getting leus. Everything else would be standard, 100% plat het, 100% creme het, 50% leu het (unless they prove) and 25% albino het.

I can pm you later if you would like to discuss genetics with you. You will not get cremino out of this pairing, and only have a slim chance of leu. No albino. All of these are recessive traits and need each parent to carry the gene.

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Originally posted by Tigerlily88

Right, so you have a 33% chance of getting leus. Everything else would be standard, 100% plat het, 100% creme het, 50% leu het (unless they prove) and 25% albino het.

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ohhh okay... i see now. I guess the reason i assumed differently is my current breeding pair is a Leu Female and a Mosaic male who is 100% Leu Het. I assumed since some of their joeys are leus, some are mosiacs, and only 1 has been a standard that it worked that way all around.

So i need to get a creamino pair and a Platinum pair then?

If you want plats the best way to do that is with a plat 100% leu het and a leu or a plat 100% leu het with a standard 100% plat het

Came for cremino.....

At least, that's my understanding of it.....all those hets also create the possibility of ruby lue but your chances are slim

Resa

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Originally posted by ResaJane

If you want plats the best way to do that is with a plat 100% leu het and a leu or a plat 100% leu het with a standard 100% plat het

Came for cremino.....

At least, that's my understanding of it.....all those hets also create the possibility of ruby lue but your chances are slim

Resa

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Yeah now that i am really looking that chart i am starting to get it, let me ask you this:

Male: Platinum 100% Leu Het
Female: Leustic 100% Platinum Het

From what i understand that gives me 25%Platinum, 25% Leustic, 50%Standard 100% het to both?

I'm not 100% sure on this... but I don't think you can get a leu that's het for plat. leu and plat interact really oddly - if you get a leu gene from one parent and a plat gene from the other, you get a plat glider that's only got one plat gene (even though it's recessive and normally requires two) and is also a carrier for leucistic. I *think* a plat that has one copy of the plat gene and one of the leu gene (instead of two copies of plat) paired with a leu (no hets) would have offspring with a 50% chance of being plat (again, only one copy of the plat gene/carriers for leu) and a 50% chance of being leu.

the actual solid facts available on how they interact seem to still be a bit of a question mark, from all I've read... I've heard that 1 plat gene + 1 leu gene doesn't *always* give you a plat, for example... still trying to sort out the details of it all myself. all I know for sure is that my breeding pair of a leu male w/no hets and a WFB girl that's at least 50% plat het will give me joeys that are always 100% leu het and will be a mix of WFB and standard if Tabby's plat het does NOT prove out... but if she does prove out, then that combo can produce actual platinums.

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Originally posted by Imbrium

I'm not 100% sure on this... but I don't think you can get a leu that's het for plat. leu and plat interact really oddly - if you get a leu gene from one parent and a plat gene from the other, you get a plat glider that's only got one plat gene (even though it's recessive and normally requires two) and is also a carrier for leucistic. I *think* a plat that has one copy of the plat gene and one of the leu gene (instead of two copies of plat) paired with a leu (no hets) would have offspring with a 50% chance of being plat (again, only one copy of the plat gene/carriers for leu) and a 50% chance of being leu.

the actual solid facts available on how they interact seem to still be a bit of a question mark, from all I've read... I've heard that 1 plat gene + 1 leu gene doesn't *always* give you a plat, for example... still trying to sort out the details of it all myself. all I know for sure is that my breeding pair of a leu male w/no hets and a WFB girl that's at least 50% plat het will give me joeys that are always 100% leu het and will be a mix of WFB and standard if Tabby's plat het does NOT prove out... but if she does prove out, then that combo can produce actual platinums.

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Any sources by chance so i can research?

mostly just poking around over at glider central without getting any 100% definitive answers, plus talking to Debby Mountjoy (she and Priscilla Price run TPG)... I'm inclined to think Debby's got it right, based on having spent a LOT of time studying genetics in the past (not of gliders, just in general). the only thing that makes me not 100% sure is conflicting hear-say through GC. I'm inclined to believe exactly what I said above, but because there's conflicting opinion floating around out there that I can't 100% disprove due to lack of experience actually working with the genes, I can't present my interpretation as absolute fact.

here's what Debby had to say, with a couple notes in italics from me:

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The platinum and leucistic color gene reside on the same allele. The leucistic is dominant over the platinum. So if you have a classic sugar glider that is double het (same percentage) for leucistic and platinum – they will be either and you would not know until you proved them out.
I'm guessing she meant to say that plat is dominant over leu, since to my knowledge, having both makes a glider platinum - not leu - making plat the "stronger" of the two alleles... which Debby alludes to in the next paragraph.

If you have a parent that is leucistic and a platinum het parent [by which she means a standard gray (or WFB/mo, etc.) plat het... in combo with a leu, that would give joeys that always got a leu allele of the gene from one parent and then got *either* a normal or plat allele from the other - ie my specific situation], the classics joey will be 100% het for leucistic and have no platinum het. However that combination of parents could produce a platinum that would be 100% het for leucistic.

It is confusing for us. I have just shared what we see in our breeding pairs.

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so basically, that would mean there's three different versions of the same gene - normal, leucistic and platinum. normal is dominant/the other two are recessive to the normal version, so if the glider has one normal copy, they'll always have "normal" physical coloring (ie not plat or leu) - it takes two recessive copies to make a colored glider... however, because plat and leu are presumably on the same gene, it's possible to get leu on both copies, plat on both copies or one of each. to be a leucistic, a glider has to be homozygous for the leu gene - ie two copies, like a normal recessive trait... plat is the "weird" trait, only requiring ONE copy of the plat gene to produce a platinum glider *IF* the second copy of the gene isn't "normal" (because the normal will override the platinum) - meaning all you need for plat is a genotype of plat/[not "normal"], which can be accomplished with a genotype of plat/plat OR plat/leu.

if this is, indeed, how it works then you can't get a standard gray out of a pairing where both parents are actual plat and/or leu coloring. if you have a plat (with plat/plat genotype) breeding with a leu (has to be leu/leu genotype), you should get all plat offspring because they all end up with a plat/leu genotype. if you have a plat (plat/leu genotype) with a leu glider, then joeys would have a 50% chance of ending up with plat/leu and a 50% chance of ending up with leu/leu which would result in platinum and leucistic physical colorings, respectively.

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Originally posted by Imbrium
if this is, indeed, how it works then you can't get a standard gray out of a pairing where both parents are actual plat and/or leu coloring. if you have a plat (with plat/plat genotype) breeding with a leu (has to be leu/leu genotype), you should get all plat offspring because they all end up with a plat/leu genotype. if you have a plat (plat/leu genotype) with a leu glider, then joeys would have a 50% chance of ending up with plat/leu and a 50% chance of ending up with leu/leu which would result in platinum and leucistic physical colorings, respectively.

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Okay please forgive my stupidity, but why would that be an issue? I would prefer getting platinums, then leu's, and standards would be non-preferable.

I think im missing the big picture

the only "issue" is that you suggested a pairing involving a leucistic glider that was het for platinum and I was saying I didn't think those existed... and that I was unclear on your *exact* preferences as far as what you were looking to breed for. based on what you've just said you want, there's no actual issue at all ;)

if what you want is all plats, then you need to look for a plat glider *without* any leu het to pair with a leu. if you want both colorings, you need to find a plat/100% leu het and a leu (which may be somewhat trickier to get a good COI/kinship chart match-up for, since they'll both have leu backgrounds). if you don't care if you get one or both, then plat with any % of leu het paired with leu will work (since you won't care if the leu het proves out). I've heard that a lot of people breeding for plats deliberately incorporate leus into their breeding programs because of the way the genes work.

basically, breeding color x color (ie same colors) is strongly discouraged because it concentrates the genetics of that colored line... so in the interest of genetic diversity, people breed color x het for that color instead. they get "stuck with" half standard grays, but it improves the overall genetics of the lines. mixing leu and plat, if the match-ups are done right, can give you the diversity benefits of breeding color x het without ending up with standards (the benefit of color x color).

anyway, I've gotta dart off to Joann's to use my 25% off card from the first week of the two week promotion deal since it expires today (them and their darn deals - as if I need MORE fleece >< 25% off wouldn't be enough to tempt me, except that they have blizzard fleece at $4.99 a yard right now). I'd be happy to keep chatting genetics when I get back, though!

The breeder(Shelly of Glider Nursery) you are getting gliders has a different take on Platinum & Leucistic inheritance than the majority of breeders as she has had some unique pairings that have produced what on paper usually doesn't happen. I'd highly recommend you really research platinum & leucistic genetics and talk to several breeders about their experiences & thoughts on it as it is something that isn't agreed upon in the community.

So on the male's side(out of Leo (who should IMO be listed as a Platinum 100% Leu het ) and Enchanted Penny (a 100% leu het)) - the genetics typically show that the glider would either inherit the Platinum gene OR the Leucistic gene from his father Leo. We usually list those as 100% Platinum OR Leucistic Het(until he is bred and proves out).

On the female's side(out of Tanner and Lady Cotton) -There has been ONE case where it seems a Leucistic glider MAY have passed on the Platinum gene(it is most likely the case of crossing over or a trisomy - a RARE thing). Other breeders have attempted to replicate this and have NOT had this happen or prove out so I would consider it the exception rather than the rule...I think it is much more appropriate to list them as POSSIBLE platinum het rather than 100% Platinum Het as 100% implies they ARE carriers for that gene which they may or may not be until proven out.

So you have the chance at getting leus or platinum 100% leu hets as well as classic greys that would be 100% leu het - when they're bred, you can see what the male proves out to carry for. If he carries for both, then you could get both colors, but that generally is the rare case.

yeah, Shelly's take on things is the information that I can neither verify nor disprove that prevents me from being able to say anything regarding how it works with certainty. I'm dubious about her theories, as she's apparently had things happen that shouldn't have, BUT... I've never heard of anyone being able to replicate the results.

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Originally posted by petluv15
So you have the chance at getting leus or platinum 100% leu hets as well as classic greys that would be 100% leu het - when they're bred, you can see what the male proves out to carry for. If he carries for both, then you could get both colors, but that generally is the rare case.

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So if i understand you right, ill get mainly leus and platinums that are leu het, but nothing would be wrong with the offspring health wise?

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Originally posted by arcwind

So if i understand you right, ill get mainly leus and platinums that are leu het, but nothing would be wrong with the offspring health wise?

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Nothing that would relate to their color, so long as the lines are clean.

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Originally posted by arcwind

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Originally posted by petluv15
So you have the chance at getting leus or platinum 100% leu hets as well as classic greys that would be 100% leu het - when they're bred, you can see what the male proves out to carry for. If he carries for both, then you could get both colors, but that generally is the rare case.

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So if i understand you right, ill get mainly leus and platinums that are leu het, but nothing would be wrong with the offspring health wise?

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You would get EITHER Leus and Standard Grey Leu Hets... OR Platinums that are 100% Leu Het an Standard Grey Leu Hets...

depending on what the male ends up proving to carry for...

I'm a bit confused because you are also mentioning cremino - I don't see any cremino in that test joey?

yeah, there's no guarantee of no health issues - as there isn't with any pair - but the odds of something popping up that couldn't have been predicted/prevented through proper pairing based on COIs and kinship charts are no different than with any other match-up. plat to leu is a perfectly valid pairing as long as the match is sound.

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Originally posted by petluv15

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Originally posted by arcwind

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Originally posted by petluv15
So you have the chance at getting leus or platinum 100% leu hets as well as classic greys that would be 100% leu het - when they're bred, you can see what the male proves out to carry for. If he carries for both, then you could get both colors, but that generally is the rare case.

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So if i understand you right, ill get mainly leus and platinums that are leu het, but nothing would be wrong with the offspring health wise?

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You would get EITHER Leus and Standard Grey Leu Hets... OR Platinums that are 100% Leu Het an Standard Grey Leu Hets...

depending on what the male ends up proving to carry for...

I'm a bit confused because you are also mentioning cremino - I don't see any cremino in that test joey?

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Tigerlilly Pm'd me and explained that if i bred a Platinum and Creamino i would only have standards with Het, so i changed the pairing but i was too late to edit the OP and didnt want to clog the board

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Originally posted by arcwind

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Originally posted by petluv15

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Originally posted by arcwind

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Originally posted by petluv15
So you have the chance at getting leus or platinum 100% leu hets as well as classic greys that would be 100% leu het - when they're bred, you can see what the male proves out to carry for. If he carries for both, then you could get both colors, but that generally is the rare case.

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So if i understand you right, ill get mainly leus and platinums that are leu het, but nothing would be wrong with the offspring health wise?

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You would get EITHER Leus and Standard Grey Leu Hets... OR Platinums that are 100% Leu Het an Standard Grey Leu Hets...

depending on what the male ends up proving to carry for...

I'm a bit confused because you are also mentioning cremino - I don't see any cremino in that test joey?

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Tigerlilly Pm'd me and explained that if i bred a Platinum and Creamino i would only have standards with Het, so i changed the pairing but i was too late to edit the OP and didnt want to clog the board

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Oh, well I didn't see the first one you had selected but if the Platinum is a het(or possible het) for cremino and/or the Cremino is het(or possible het) for Platinum or Leu, you could still get color.

As I just pointed out on another thread however, color really should be just one factor. There is NOTHING wrong with producing hets - we need lines to be bred out so we can preserve certain traits. Other things to factor in aside from COI is Kinship, Coefficient of Relationship, Health, Longevity of the Lines, Size of the gliders, etc.

One thing we are really starting to see is reduced eye size in the colored gliders...there are background genes linked to color genes that influence that so it is something to watch for. We need to be selecting FOR gliders with normal/large eyes and selecting against those that have smaller eyes. This is just one example of a "health" issue to watch out for - lots of undesirable genes are associated with color in a variety of species - we've been lucky to avoid a lot of lethal ones but the focus on breeding just for color + low COI isn't great overall either.

I also think we need to be focusing on "the next generation" - we put a pair together and they produce several litters of joeys. If we like what they produce, perhaps let them produce awhile longer but select for the next generation of healthy joeys with good temperaments to continue the lines. We do this in dogs and cats - selecting the show or working quality versus the "pet quality" which shouldn't be bred.

Just some things to consider

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Originally posted by petluv15

I also think we need to be focusing on "the next generation" - we put a pair together and they produce several litters of joeys. If we like what they produce, perhaps let them produce awhile longer but select for the next generation of healthy joeys with good temperaments to continue the lines. We do this in dogs and cats - selecting the show or working quality versus the "pet quality" which shouldn't be bred.

Just some things to consider

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Funny you mention that hun, I was bored earlier and ran a second test joey, from my current pair who is leu/mos and this theoritical pair that im putting together now. My current pair is already 3 years old so i only plan on breeding them for another year, maybe 18 months then neutering them because i dont want to overwork them at all.