Poll Question: Who thinks inbreeding is wrong In australia on our permit forms it states that there is to be no breeding with animals that are in any way related so i wanted your opinions on this my opinion is its wrong, i dont care what reason someone would do it, if its "keeping the blood lines close" etc its not healthy so please give your opinions thankyou Choices: Against inbreeding Inbreeding is ok if not close related Its ok for other reasons, please state if u vote for this Its ok if its only once

According to something i saw on TV humans can breed with their first cousin and the risk of problems like an enlarged liver or heart are the same as breeding a brother and sister, second cousins would be like a complete stranger in terms of relation.

That being said, I'm completely against it. A lot of the colored breeders are now admitting to inbreeding their earlier lines and a lot of the colored males have problems with reproducing. I don't think people realize an enlarged testicle could mean an enlarged heart.

One thing is if you watch a lot of the breeders lineages that they put on their website you'll occasionally find one where a white male has fathered EVERY SINGLE standard grey joey. Now it may just be a coincidence but if i had a white glider and could say that any of my joeys were his offspring and sell it for 600 dollars.... there would be temptation.

does anyone els have opinions

Well... I for one am somewhat more repulsed by the idea of inbreeding among humans. "The Hills Have Eyes", immediately come to mind. Supposedly there is a big difference between inbreeding and line breeding. I am not a breeder so I am not completly clear on the issue; however, most reputable breeders don't breed mother-son, father-daughter, or brother-sister. Usually it is more of a "cousin" thing. The reason for breeders line breeding is to gain a higher probability of a certian trait eg. (White faced sugar gliders). Unfortunately, in order to increase the probablity for the good traits they also bring in the bad which are shown in malformations and health problems. In the case of gliders it is a trade off. Thought I think the grey are really cute, there is also something about the white faced and leucistic that pulls on my heartstrings. So I don't know where that leaves me on the issue of inbreeding; because, I am pretty sure that any variation in gliders is probably due to inbreeding at some point in time.

edited: Woops... my spelling went out the window...

jennybean i know what u mean yes the white faced gliders are gorgeous

but even "line breeding" which is just inbreeding anyway is still unhealthy and just wrong

i noticed there are breeders on this site that "line breed" but none seem to have an opinion on this topic

maby its because they know its just plain wrong but dont care

inbreeding is terrible and it should be obvious by the health issues it causes. i dont understand how anyone could do that to an animal. actually, i guess its just the allure of money. ugh, people suck sometimes. also, can anyone explain to me what linebreeding actually is? is it just a fancy word for inbreeding or is it supposed to be different?

I'm completely against inbreeding. I think if it was a one time accident then it's ok but the breeders shouldn't sell them, they should give them away and should tell the new owners about the possible side effects. And by give away, I don't mean just stand outside of walmart so that some kid will convince his/her parent to get the cutie for them. They should be given to someone who has done their research and is willing to sell out money visits due to the possible health issues the glider can have. I believe it is wrong for a breeder to sell an inbred sugar gliders, it's even repulsive in my opinion. They have a duty to the ppl they are selling the gliders to so they shouldn't give them something just because it came from a good bloodline.

i agree, i think its immoral and gross. i have seen the hills have eyes #1 and #2, absolutely disgusting. there is no good reason for it!!

im also COMPLETELY agenst it, theres a reson why humans dont inbreed so there is a reson why GLIDERS shouldnt inbreed, its just nasty...

I would never practice inbreeding, its just not right, I want to become a hobby breeder/rescue one day but that probably wont happen until I move out of my moms house!! I can just imagine my mom walking into my room and seeing 5 new gliders a week ahahaa. I want to rescue them forsure though.

I find it completely disgusting that breeders are willing to inbreed for the sake of money. it's just creepy.

I know, its just wrong.

breeders should NOT be allowed to do this, even "line breeding" isnt right (anyways, I dont think it is).

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html

The difference between inbreeding and linebreeding...difference in having acne and having a blemish IMO...

I really have no idea how prevalent it is or is not outside of the mills.

It is a horrible thing to do in my opinion. Line breeding or inbreeding. There is no way to tell what is or possibly would occur health wise, so why take the chance? People who do inbreed or line breed are in it for the money, not the welfare of the animal or the offspring. To me there is no reason for it. If you love your animals or are interested in doing what is best for them, how could you do either of these sick things?

Linebreeding is inbreeding. It is just a more pleasant term for some. It sounds a little more mature, like you know what you are doing and are educated on breeding practices. In reality, it's completely irresponsible. Inbreeding is bad. Maybe if the US had a royal family rife with hemophilia it would be a little more distateful to inbreed animals.

I don't know of any GOOD breeders that approve in inbreeding. Nowadays even LINEbreeding isn't necessary.

There are only a 1-3 lines for each color of glider(1 albino line, 3 leu lines, 2 cremino lines...) so some linebreeding was done in the beginning to preserve the lines. However, some breeders bred OUT their gliders and nowadays you can find bred out hets of almost any color and, imo, there's no reason why any pairing should have to be closer then 2nd cousins(which is an acceptable pairing even with humans).

I think that the only lines in which close breeding is still being done is in the albino lines. Personally, I'm against most albino/het pairings because I think they're too close, but some breeders differ in their opinions.

I don't believe that there is EVER a need to inbreed and I think that the gliders that were inbred in the beginning by accident(father/daughter, brother/sister, mother/son) should have never been sold to be bred. It had caused a lots of problems in the leu lines when it comes to finding good pairs because almost all of them have inbreeding at some point or another. If breeders would have taken responsibility in the beginning then those inbred joeys would have never been bred. Sure, it would have taken a little bit longer to breed more leus, but they would have been bred eventually and it would have been done PROPERLY. *sigh*

Anyways...I could rant about that all day, lol. It's like kicking a dead horse. *rolls eyes*

Oh yeah, here's a chart that show sthe difference between inbreeding and line breeding: Error, missing URL. p

Your chart shows inbreeding and linebreeding as how close is too close...I think it is splitting hairs. I didn't realize how close the color lines were either...think I'll stick to owning standard grey.

This is copied from your same site...

Q. I was told the male "should produce", how do they know?
A. It has already been proven that the sterility can be bred out with the proper introduction of "new blood" into the line. In some lines it takes 3 or 4 generations out from the original "sterile" gliders to start seeing males produce. In others lines could be quite a bit more generations needed to begin seeing fertile males. In honesty, it really depends on the specific line, and how much inbreeding was done. Breeders working with sterile lines will often check the joeys testicles to determine if they are developing properly. If the testacies drop, are firm, and average size, it is possible that the sugar glider will be able to produce. However, that is NOT a guarantee that the male will be able to have joeys.


How exactly is sterility "bred out"? If a glider is sterile, it doesn't have offspring.

Sterile lines is a whole different issue. I'd recommend starting a new thread for that because I could write a whole essay on how I feel about it, rofl! A few months ago I would have said it was perfectly fine to breed sterile lines because I thought that breeders were just trying to preserve the line. Females from sterile lines can produce, but will throw sterile males. After a certain number of generations those females will start to throw non-sterile males. However, a little detail that was left out is WHY the males are sterie...I spoke with my vet about it and she said she neutered a sterile male and his testes were so small that she couldn't find them at first. They were they size of a pinpoint! Then other people have take their males in to be neutered and they didn't even HAVE testes! :

I have 2 breeding pairs with females from sterile mosaic lines. I'd only had them for about a month and when I found all that stuff out about the males, I neutered both their mates immediately. I now try and inform others about the males having little/no testes because I do NOT think that the lines should be bred and my vet agrees 110%!

hmm, I wonder why the females dont come out sterile, this really interests me.
I guess you would just have to get lucky and try to get a female joey every generation and pair her up with a regular glider (one with good bloodlines) is that how to breed out the whole sterile problem for the males?

Well, sterility is the only health issue that's obvious. No one's ever done an in-depth study on sterile-line gliders so there's no way to know if there are more health problems that we just don't see. : Also, males aren't sterile because their just have low sperm count or something simple like that...they have REALLY tiny testes or simply NO testes at all! That's more then a simple "they're sterile" issue, imo. If a glider were born without a leg or perhaps a shriveled, tiny let, would it be fine to breed that glider?....HELL NO! People seem to think it's fine to breed them just because you can't SEE that missing/undersized body part.

I've washed my hands of the sterile lines and so have some other people I know of. All our sterile line mosaics are now retired and their mates/offspring are neutered(or, in Godsend's case, he WILL be neutered once he's old enough).

I completly agree it wrong to inbreed. We raise show rabbits and so many of them are so inbred like mother to son and daughter to dad. We do not in breed if at all possible. but it has been a really big problem to find rabbits unrelated. Must be the same with sugar gliders. Hope these problems can stop down the line some were.

I raised show rabbits as well and everyone I have ever talked to, including my animal science prof in college thought line breeding was fine. As in say dad to grandchild or farther removed, but yes, breeding father to daughter and etc. is wrong. Some colorations and other characteristics only show up with linebreeding though.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tortiebaby


I've washed my hands of the sterile lines and so have some other people I know of. All our sterile line mosaics are now retired and their mates/offspring are neutered(or, in Godsend's case, he WILL be neutered once he's old enough).

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Kudos Nicole, I agree there probably are more defects in those gliders that we just don't NOTICE. Birth genetic defects in humans are usually found in clusters. If a human baby is born & a defect found the drs immediatly start looking for the others/internal defects because they are almost always present.

I have the same feeling right now regarding the albino lines. First Dr. Tristan & Val's vet advised AGAINST breeding for any albino and I asked my own vet today. If you could have seen the cringe on her & the vet techs faces. They confirmed what other vets I respect(but don't use) have been saying.

I think that line-breeding is okay as long as it's done responsibly and NOT excessively. However, imo, I don't think that gliders should ever be paired close then 2nd cousins. With the albino lines there are is only 1 line(Moe and Disco), but there are multiple joeys from that pairing. Alot of people are pairing 100% albino hets which are first cousins. The only way to breed no close then 2nd cousins would be to breed 2 50% albino hets. However, unfortunately, hardly anyone is willing to take a gamble by pairing 2 50% hets, so they pair 100% hets. :

I agree Trigger, most genetic health issues seem to come in groups. :( Also, it doesn't take much common sense to realize that if gliders were inbred to the point of sterility, then, odds are, the inbreeding caused other issues as well. Oh well, like I said, "washed my hands". It gets too many people angry when you start saying to not breed the sterile lines. Even *I* use to get angry at it because I thought they were fine to breed as well. It was willful ignorance. I can deny it, but I KNEW in the back of my mind that it was wrong to breed the sterile lines. I was just trying to justify it and I see that now. What's done is done though and all we can do is try and keep getting people to stop breeding those lines and HOPE that no health more issues pop up. :(

As for the albino lines, as of yet, no health issues have been seen and in the research I've done about albino animals they are not prone to genetic issues or health problems. They sunburn easily because of not having any melatonin, but that's not a problem for gliders since they're nocturnal, lol. Also, because of not having melatonin, there's a possibility that they could have bad eyesight, but none of the breeders have ever noticed any bad eyesight in their albinos, so it could be that it doesn't effect gliders since their eyes are built a little differently then a normal animal since they're nocturnal.

Also, all of the creminos(T+ albinos) I've seen are some of the biggest, healthiest gliders I've laid eyes on! lol.

Of course, if someone were to come up showing that albino-line gliders have genetic issues then I'm sure I'd retire my albino het boy as well(of course, I guess I'd have to breed him first, right? lol. I have yet to find him the perfect mate...). ;)

I think breeding distant cousins is fine. However, close inbreeding is stupid and dangerous. My nineteen rescues were probably all descended of a single pair and their offspring. Out of nineteen gliders, six were blind. That is the only *noticeable* trait and they *seem* otherwise healthy, but there could be things wrong we just don't know about.

I am not against responsible breeding because, Heaven knows if *everyone* neutered ever male there would be no more sugar gliders in captivity and domestication has to start someplace. But, breeding must be responsible and limited and all rescue gliders and all male gliders adopted out as regular pets should be neutered. That is my opinion.

Of the four females I kept from my rescues, I am hoping no one is pregnant and that it just isn't noticeable yet. I will be very very selective if I adopt out any babies to make sure they will never be bred. These animals are a genetic mess. <sigh>

It is wrong. Birth defects, shorter life span and overall health problems can occur just to name a few reasons I'm against it.