What's the best way to check the Ca:Ph ratio? I know it's supposed to be 2:1, but how do I achieve that?

Yes, I shamefully admit that I don't do this.

But hey, it's better late than never right?...

If you go up to "resources" and "nutrition", you can do a search for any food and it will give you the ratio....OR you can go through this which is long and confusing, but I think around p.4 it starts giving ratios:

http://files.meetup.com/768852/Ratios.pdf

I wonder, for anyone that has children (of any age), do you or have you ever worried about their C:Ph? And rhetorically, I wonder if the nature of the internet has allowed an over-emphasis on certain things that may or may not be as important as other things? It just seems odd to me that sugar glider people seem more obsessed with the C:Ph of their gliders and not so worried about other things. Has anyone else ever noticed this?

I guess "yes" and "no". I know what I'm supposed to feed them (kids)based on the food groups and try to do the best I can. Unfortunately, I don't always have control when they are at a friend's house, at school, at grandma's, etc... If they have an extra "crappy" food day, I do try to offset that with healthier foods, they get vitamins every day and exercise too. Luckily, they also have well-checks annually and the doctors are able to determine their health status by using growth charts, urinalysis tests, checking blood pressure, heart rates, breathing, general appearance, activity levels, order blood tests if something seems out of whack...the eye doctor checks for deficiencies, as does the dentist, they conduct sight, hearing and scoliosis tests yearly at school. They have scheduled, required vaccinations. I think a lot of the problem is, there isn't an easy way to determine how healthy our gliders actually are. Since they haven't been around long enough as captive pets to really know if any diets are optimal or if we are even improving their quality of life, we tend to latch onto whatever information we do have. I know with my dog and cat, they seem to go to the vet more than my kids go to the doctor and their health and diet is also closely monitored as they age. Luckily, there's tons of information for treating them as their health deteriorates-there's treatment and vaccinations for her as well. Diet is a large part of their life too.

good points

yes good points. :) thanks for your help! i'm looking at it now.

Eric, I think we worry because there is so little known about the gliders diet. I believe we are doing the best we can with what little information we have. It is changing and evolving all the time. Dietary issues have changed since Ive been coming here - and now different aspects of HPW is being re-evaluated.

Honestly, feeding them is a crap-shoot. Until there is long term dietary study done - we can only do the best we can with what we have.

I did try to feed my boys nutritious meals, but with sports, school activities - the teenage years - it seemed like fast food and pizza overtook our lives. There wasnt time between school getting out and some sort of activity starting. They also went to the Dr for annual physicals, eye exams, dentist, etc. But with our children, we KNOW how they are supposed to eat....

Do we really? That food pyramid changes over the years I've noticed. My mother fixed our family bacon and fried eggs and buttered toast for breakfast because that was then considered a healthy start for our day. Some (my husband included) still believe it is. Maybe in earlier times when the people's daily work involved a great deal of physical effort, all of those fats were healthy. Diets change, and dietary needs change with time and research. We're just fumbling along and doing the best that we can.

real kids nope, but kyro has some good points.

Need additional help. The Ca:Ph ratios I've found usually have serving size. Like... A whole Avacado ... or some such thing.

How do I break it down to the reality of what I serve my gliders? Or ... do I need to?

I know I personally try to make the portions the same when keeping track of Ca:Ph. If you use the "nutrition" link above and do the search option, avocado, for example, gives you the option of 1 cup, 100 grams or the entire fruit.

I'm kind of a believer of the "almost anything, as long as it's in moderation" type belief. I do try to feed both my skin and furry kids healthy meals for the most part, but do allow "treats" on occasion and don't think it hurts anything.

You can do a bunch of math...but basically, if the ratio is 6.4:8.9 or whatever on that piece of fruit (I totally made up that number, please don't go looking for it), it will be the same ratio if you give half of it or just a little sliver. If you give the same amount of each piece of food, then you can add the ratios and divide by the # of items. If you come out with the equivalent of 2:1, then you did it right. So 4:2, 6:3, etc. are all right. It's pretty hard to get it absolutely perfect but you can always try. Also, keep in mind gliders don't always eat all of what you give, which could throw off the ratio when you look at their food dishes in the morning and see half or all of something untouched. I give mine extra papaya once a week, just in case she's missing out on calcium, and I don't give her food that is excessively high in phosphorous. I figure that evens her out well enough.

Also, I am wondering just how much calcium is there in tree sap? Or insects? Is there a study or chemical breakdown on what they would eat in the wild like that? Stands to reason what they eat in the wild would be the best for them, but then we also change their living conditions keeping them as pets so that could change their dietary needs.

I have the ratios for feeder insects in a pdf file. You can pm me your email address if you'd like it. I can only send it as an attachment. Sorry about that.

But my problem is ... I know what foods I feed. But I don't feed the same amounts of each one. I feed more green beans than carrots, for example. And some papaya, etc. I suppose I could get the ratios of each item ... say ... a large bag of green beans, a small bag of carrots, small bag of peas, 1/2 a papaya, etc and then work it out?

Kyro - send me that file? valkyriemome at aol.com!

Sent! :)

quote:

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Originally posted by lovely1inred
Also, keep in mind gliders don't always eat all of what you give, which could throw off the ratio when you look at their food dishes in the morning and see half or all of something untouched.

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I mentioned this before too. Especially if you have more than one glider. One may have eaten all of the papaya and the other may have eaten all of the corn and another all of the chicken or whatever. Unless you feed separately AND they consume all of what you give them, you really have no way of knowing.

I think the point is that we do the best we can based on what we know and pray for the best. Kinda like raising our skin kids........LOL

LOL! thank you ALL for all your help! And believe me, it helped a great deal! It's definitely going to take a lot of practice and research (and research is never complete)but i'm determined to keep them as healthy and happy as possible.

I never thought this would turn into a mini nutritional debate. lol. i think we are all doing the best we can with such little hard evidence we have. yay for vets and suggies and their long, happy lives in captivity us humans provide!

Like the reply above I use a very simple method of delivering the proper Ca:P ratio's with the nightly food. I have several mixes that provide a WIDE variety of fruits and veggies pre-made and frozen into cubes. When I sit down and make these mixes I have a kitchen scale, pen, paper, and calculater in the kitchen with me. I usually use a standard sized "portion" of each fruit/veggie be it 100 grams or 8 oz's depending on how much Im making (or even half or 1/4 portions if needed to balance, but that is more complicated). Then add up the Ca side of the ratio, same with the P side, and divide by the total amout of items.

Simple Example (equal portions):

Honeydew - 0.6:1
Cantaloupe - 0.6:1
Papaya - 4.8:1

Totals of 6.00:3 so I divide 6.00 by 3 = 2:1 ratio.

I take it even further by including the HPW mix into things. But the mixes are not pureed, they are left in small chunks the gliders can handle and are received well by them. :)

Since the diets of most small animals and even some larger ones are very generally based around 1.5:1-2:1 Ca:P I feel comfortable balancing the mixes I make for my furkids in this way. When more information is available diets will constantly be changing.

After searching far and wide and using the USDA's website to generate their current info this is the short list I came up with the popular bugs/protiens and their ratio's and what other info that was available:

quote:

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Crickets - 0.33:1 (protein 20%, fat 7%)
Mealworms - 0.07:1 (protein 19%, fat 14%)
Superworms - 0.09:1 (protein 22%, fat 17%)
Waxworms - 0.1:1 (protein 15%, fat 24%)
Phoenix Worms - 1.52:1 (protein 17%, fat 9%)
Silkworms - 0.39:1 (protein 54%, fat 43%)
Roaches - 4.5:1 (protein 27-36%, fat 5-7%) VERY species dependent
Darkling Beetle *mealie adult* - n/a
Small Grasshopper - n/a (protein 20%, fat 6%) Ca mg 35.2
Large Grasshopper - n/a (protein 14%, fat 3%) Ca mg 27.5
Locust - 0.13:1 (n/a)
June Bug - n/a (protein 13%, fat 1%) Ca mg 22.6
Pinkies - 0.89:1 (protein 12%, fat 4.72%)
Fuzzies - 1.08:1 (protein 14%, fat 14%)
Day old Chick - 1.1:1 (protein 72%, fat 22%)
Chicken breast roasted - 0.07:1 (protein 31%, fat 3%)
Chicken dark meat roasted - 0.09:1 (protein 27%, fat 10%)
Turkey breast roasted - 0.05:1 (protein 30%, fat 1%)
Pork lean tenderloin roasted - 0.02:1 (protein 22%, fat 3%)
Ground Beef sirloin - 0.06:1 (protein 28%, fat 12%)
Hard Cooked Egg - 0.29:1 (protein 12%, fat 10%)

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I am currently looking into the natural saps/gums to see what info is available. :)

quote:

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Originally posted by kyro298

I guess "yes" and "no". I know what I'm supposed to feed them (kids)based on the food groups and try to do the best I can. Unfortunately, I don't always have control when they are at a friend's house, at school, at grandma's, etc... If they have an extra "crappy" food day, I do try to offset that with healthier foods, they get vitamins every day and exercise too. Luckily, they also have well-checks annually and the doctors are able to determine their health status by using growth charts, urinalysis tests, checking blood pressure, heart rates, breathing, general appearance, activity levels, order blood tests if something seems out of whack...the eye doctor checks for deficiencies, as does the dentist, they conduct sight, hearing and scoliosis tests yearly at school. They have scheduled, required vaccinations. I think a lot of the problem is, there isn't an easy way to determine how healthy our gliders actually are. Since they haven't been around long enough as captive pets to really know if any diets are optimal or if we are even improving their quality of life, we tend to latch onto whatever information we do have. I know with my dog and cat, they seem to go to the vet more than my kids go to the doctor and their health and diet is also closely monitored as they age. Luckily, there's tons of information for treating them as their health deteriorates-there's treatment and vaccinations for her as well. Diet is a large part of their life too.

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Another thing to keep in mind, we as humans have a longer life span then these gliders do. Meaning, we have more time for an improper diet to have affects on us. Where these sugar gliders don't have as much time. Since we don't really know what diet is truly proven to be the best diet for them, we have to check, double check, change diets as we learn more. Because if we don't, it could be a matter of health issues, and behavior problems that will arise and quickly, too.

could someone post a guide of like what too feed say like if i fed mellon one week what i should feed with it ect like pair foods up that equal each other out? if that makes any sense that'd be soo helpful

OK Folks I hope this will help.

I have been doing research and gathering nutritional data for several months. I am finally posting the summary of that research.

First everyone needs to understand, that it is more than just the Ca:P ratio in fruits and vegetables that must be considered. One must consider the total calcium and total phosphorus content of the foods offered - INCLUDING the basic diet you have chosen.
Not all 2:1 ratio foods are created equally. Some bring a lot more total calcium and phosphorus to the table than others. For example - the total calcium(mg) and phosphorus(mg) in MealWorms adds very little in actual content to the total diet. You probably could not feed your gliders enough mealworms in a day to give them the calcium they need.

My web page is still 'under construction' but the links are there for the recognized glider diets. The DIET CALCULATOR is an excel file the allows you to select the serving amount of your chosen diet in TBS (the calculations are based on the ingredients in the diets as written) then choose the vegetables and fruits (smoothies, vegie relish and Mixed Vegetables are included in the list) that you wish to feed - also in TBS. The totals, in mg, for Calcium, Phosphorus (and their ratio) and the totals (also in mg) for protein, sugar, fat and fiber will be calculated for you at the top of the list. Then you can increase or decrease the servings of the fruits and vegetables or add some of another vegetable to see the total for that combination of foods.

hstrial-cotte1.homestead.com/references.html

If you have questions, comments or corrections to any of the information Please email me directly so I can check my sources and calculations. This as with all diet information is a work in progress and will be updated if additional data is received.

Candy
LuvMyGliderKids@aol.com

http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/search.asp

Very nice Ko! I've never even seen this before, and I live here! It is now added to the Health-Related Links thread.

Raven..LOL Read the second post in the thread.

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Originally posted by kyro298

Raven..LOL Read the second post in the thread.

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hehe Raven like me, obviously takes notes of links first

We do have such a good resource right under our noses here.

OK, I admit I usually do too....

Ko - thanks that is a useful tool.

I do not however see (I could be missing it) a breakdown to a per glider serving amount. I created my Excel Spread sheet so that the serving amount in TBS or fraction of a TBS could be entered for the chosen diet and then the fruits and vegies entered by TBS amounts so the whole meal is calculated combined with the staple diet.

ok i kinda ment like a guide i teenager could understand lol im soo confused by those numbers i ment like if i fed papaya wat a good idea to pair that with would be i know im asking alot but im confused

If you feed HPW, I started a thread will meal ideas.

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20179

quote:

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Originally posted by Candy

Ko - thanks that is a useful tool.

I do not however see (I could be missing it) a breakdown to a per glider serving amount. I created my Excel Spread sheet so that the serving amount in TBS or fraction of a TBS could be entered for the chosen diet and then the fruits and vegies entered by TBS amounts so the whole meal is calculated combined with the staple diet.

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This is what I found hard to follow with your spreadsheet and to some extent the sugarglider.com database (but this does give you different measurement options). You had servings in tablespoons which is fine but who would feed a tablespoon of any one thing to a glider? A tablespoon of say fig would be way too much of a serving so even with your spreadsheet you may need to break down the data figures too even smaller amounts.