THIS is a Leu on cat food.


This is a leu ready to explode on cat food.



More photos to come. I'm home. I'm beyond exhausted. I'm seriously glad that I didn't meet this woman face to face.
Thank you Kim for dealing with her!

holy molie....thats terrible :( poor baby. glad you rescued her/him!

WOW.. just.. WOW. I'm speechless!

Holy crap! I've never seen discoloration that extreme!

poor babies:(

Poor little glider. It's called cat food for a reason. Some people are oblivious

Oh my gosh. Poor baby. Thanks to you, Lori, your this little one's super hero.
I wanna adopt a pair and help so bad!

Wow poor babies so glad you got them.

Wow, I wasn't ready for that; those pics make me want to cry. I'm about ready to go wake up my girls for a good cuddle. :(

Thank you so much, Lori, for helping these little guys and gals. Here is 'day one' of the rest of their lives. :) Thank goodness for that!!

Oh my lord those poor things! Hip hip horaay for Lori and the great Glider rescue!

Oh my! How awful! Glad you have them and can't wait to see them get healthy on good food and proper care! You are an angel!

with pics like that who would buy from her? EWWWWW

Poor babies! Lori, you are an angel for rescuing them. Thank you!

AWWW!! Poor babies, I just want to cuddle them so badly and tell them that they are now with someone that cares a lot for them and that she has a loving community behind her!!! GREAT WORK!!!!!

Have all the leu gliders been spoken for?

Wow. I am shocked by the coloring of that leu!! Big thanks yous to Lori, Kim, Amber and all the awesome folks who are rescuing these babies and FINALLY giving them loving homes where they will thrive and be happy.

Oh wow, sad.... here I thought Leu's were white.... very sad indeed. Waiting to hear from you Lori to know what I can do to help, I'm just a few hour drive away and willing and able.... Deb

Lori, you are Gods blessing to these gliders. Thank you a million times over. I have no doubt it will be no time before they look awesome and feel better cuz thats just what you do.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JeremyLexie</i>
<br />with pics like that who would buy from her? EWWWWW
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OK guys, some of you may think I am being a buzzkill in the middle of this group hug, but I'd just like to check in on this and give another perspective. And at the bottom I am soliciting opinions and ideas on a network. My thoughts are not meant to denigrate or marginalize thehomermomma either. They are just my perspective and should not detract from any good coming out of this work.

Look, everyone involved in this initiative on the receiving end, essentially "bought" from that breeder indirectly. So don't fool yourselves.

This is one of the things that makes rescue so very difficult from an ethical standpoint when opportunities to "work with breeders" come up.

On one hand you have a breeder who wants to dump a bunch of gliders and GET PAID for it, and on the other side of the equation you have well-intentioned people who want to "save" those gliders.

In the end, these animals were purchased from a breeder by proxy. As to whether or not you characterize that as a great rescue, that is up to all of you individually to ponder.

Also, I am not shocked at all by the color of these gliders. Believe me when you run a rescue and sanctuary, you see it all.

Despite your collective shock, these gliders look to me to be in pretty good shape despite the color of their fur. They are plump, bright-eyed, and more or less in need of a decent diet, which I trust all of you taking them will provide.

Sure, it's bad they were fed cat food, but I am not seeing anything here that comes even close to the horror of what naive or abusive pet owners do to their animals before they end up *here*. I mean all kinds of malnutrition, maiming, and stuff you don't want to think about. Some stay in sanctuary, but most are rehabilitated and entirely adoptable.

To me, this great rescue initiative, while it benefits the gliders that get into decent homes, is less a great rescue and more of a retail dumping or fire sale. Here, the breeder still benefits from playing on the hearts and minds of all involved.

And while the breeder ostensibly has agreed to never, never, breed again, etc. the collective message we are sending to wanna-be breeders is: <i><b>"hey you can do a wholesale dump of gliders and the community will rise up to buy them." </b></i> So what's the risk in getting in to breeding? If you screw up, or get tired of it, someone will sound a rally cry and everyone will chip in and buy.

I kind of wish we could have talked here into just surrendering these poor animals. But since the breeder was not named, the community at large could not act as a community and put pressure on this person. Instead it became a brokered deal that let her/him "get away with it."

Like I said, not optimal.

Sadly, we are reinforcing bad behavior and the poor animals are stuck in the middle.

The transfer of animals from a Breeder under the auspices of rescue is therefore a dicey ethical problem. I am *not* saying this whole thing is "bad" nor am I saying the people involved are bad. It's just that it is one of those situations that is not optimal - because the originator of the animals still clutches a commercial gain. And *that* is bad.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we have 60+ gliders here up for adoption that were just plain surrendered. And they still need homes. Now, a call to action based on a failed breeding operation - in which the breeder still wants to be paid - trumps these animals that are languishing in rescue - who are neutered, health-checked, and available for a nominal adoption fee of $50. It's a weird twist then, that an initiative such as this great rescue seemingly preempts our "normal, everyday rescue."

For example, we just took in "Charlie" a few days ago, and now, another failed hobby breeder is bringing a pair over tomorrow because the mom keeps eating the babies and "it's just too much trouble to neuter the male." In a few weeks, another pair, one an over-gromer, is coming in from Tennessee. So there you have it. The normal, constant drum beat of everyday rescue, cages filling up and them coming in faster than they go out - versus a "great rescue" in which a breeder gets paid and slinks away.

Our normal, everyday rescue is witness to many initiatives that are seen as communal rallies. While we are touched that so many people throw-in and support a rally, we are hopeful that we can all establish a steady network of rescuers so we can normalize these transactions and make all of the ad-hoc transactions more procedural and predictable - and cheaper.

Just imagine, if all of us who *want* to do rescue kind of held it all together and established rules so breeders who want to dump and run are instead faced with (transparent) unity and the pressure to surrender ill-cared-for animals.

Some of the ideas we've been kicking around include:
1. Full disclosure and transparency
2. Licensing
3. Common guidelines the "network" follows
4. Normalization of the cost of acquisition in adoption fees

I know there are other "networks" but for the most part they are failures and have devolved into ego-fueled politics and therefore no animals benefit with the exception of a few that get transferred back and forth between breeders. I have friends who have been burnt by some of these people who got stuck with all the "special needs" gliders, while a few breeders culled out the colored ones for their own gain. That to me is not a rescue network but a cynical grab for profit by people who are not really rescuers.

If any of you have ideas on what the ground rules of a truly successful, full-time working rescue network would be, I'd like to hear from you. This initiative seems to have tapped a nerve and therefore since everyone is on the subject, I'd like to glean some ideas on how to extend and normalize these activities.

Well said, Ed.

A few years ago, there was another very large (and very well known) breeder who wanted to enter into this same sort of situation. Better yet, she was ready to hand over many, many gliders - but it was to "make room" for her colored breeding program.

A group of us rescuers got together and discussed the options as well as the potential future implications. In the end, we decided NOT to enter into any kind of deal to "bail out the breeder." In the long run, the harm that could come from it trumps the good of getting a relatively small number of gliders out of a bad situation.

I stand right with you in the "daily rescue" bit. I do it every day and, like you, have many gliders who have been here for a very long time looking for a great forever home. "Trumped" is a very fitting word to use.

I will disagree wholeheartedly with you on one matter. There IS a network of rescuers - sugar glider rescuers - who is very successful and work very well together and have for a long time. We just don't feel it necessary to name ourselves or to advertise it all over the boards. We work together because it is best for the gliders. And, we have reached out repeatedly to other rescuers (yourself included) and asked you to join with us. When the SESG forum went away, this network of rescuers did NOT. We still work together and have been very active in effecting rescue (real rescue from terrible situations and working with seizure cases) all across the nation. ;)


****************************
As Ed stated, the gliders above look very good - just stained. I would love to have a group of gliders come in looking so good!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Something_To_Believe_In</i>
<br />... There IS a network of rescuers - sugar glider rescuers - who is very successful and work very well together and have for a long time. We just don't feel it necessary to name ourselves or to advertise it all over the boards. We work together because it is best for the gliders. And, we have reached out repeatedly to other rescuers (yourself included) and asked you to join with us...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Val I was referring to another network in which a few rescue friends of mine in TX and CO got burned. We'd be honored to work with you - please tell me the rules you work under by PMing me or via email ed@luckyglider.org

We in fact do advertise a lot because we are trying to offset the hits the mill breeders get so we feel compelled to offset that. That does not mean our involvement would "out" fellow rescuers who don't want to advertise. But we are out there on purpose. Hope that does not ruin it for you guys.

Ed and Val,
I'm not, under any circumstances, going to debate the ethics of rescuing with you. I do rescue every day too and paying for them does NOT happen. This situation is way more than some gliders that ate cat food and turned orange. I couldn't go into great detail until I had them in hand because the minute that she got wind that these were being considered "rescued" she would have poofed and months of working with her would have been gone.
Now that I have them I will tell you just the highlights that she hasn't had electricity in more than a month, she had them in a sun room with no ventilation creating greater than 100 degree weather, she was adopting out gliders that were pregnant at 6 months old and allowing the new owners to deal with mommas pulling their joeys, the joeys that came from her are all dehydrated, one of the mommas is missing her entire hind leg and the breeder had no idea how it happened...so she never saw a vet to have it cared for or to get pain medication, they have been moved, pulled, flipped, and generally allowed to breed without any idea of who is breeding to who and yes, they were being fed cat food (both with and without mold), peanuts (with and without worms, but mostly with) and Cantaloupe. I know that they look "plump" but Olson is so "plump" he can hardly move.
And now that we have the gliders in hand, I can tell you that my attorney (who happens to be my amazing father!) helped to create a contract that has hung this lady.
And, Ed, I want you to know that Kimberly (DoubleBogey) and I have had this conversation over the last few weeks...how do we help LGRS get gliders adopted and get more resources to you? We never in a million years expected the response that we got in help, adoptions, donations, etc. That has been so enormous and Kim and I were asking how in the world we can harness that for a network.
OK...I'm rambling. I was on the road for over 14 hours yesterday and I haven't had any real sleep and I have to go to a funeral.
But here is a first hand description of the conditions.
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=33714

thehomermomma, my opinions are not meant as grist for debate.

I took pains to say I was not trying to denigrate or marginalize the good work coming out of this. I thought I covered that up front, so let's not turn my opinion into anything more than what it is.

You yourself characterized the situation as not being optimal in the very beginning, so me saying it later in a different post is not all that untoward.

To be clear, what I am talking about is not about you per se or me or a debate between you and me.

Instead, it is about the situation at hand, and what I see as a situation that will inevitably play-out over and over again like Groundhog Day.

That begs pondering as a community and is more about "us" and not you or me or a debate.

That is why I was asking for input on what kind of communal norms could be established to deal with these types of situations at large.

That's me asking if there is some way we can work together to find alternatives to the threat of more breeder bail-outs.

We of course would be grateful for anything you and others here can do to advance the state of rescue - for ours or any other legit rescue - so I do not want to jeopardize that.

So I hope your kind offer has no strings attached because as you can see by now we do try to share our ideals, our research, and our opinions because we are highly transparent. It is our hope that our sharing of opinions and observations enriches the community. Not all of the folks in this rescue thing are so vocal and that is their right. But we are. We try to do it respectfully and will continue to do it as respectfully as we can but still be true to our mission.

Please understand that just because I did not jump on the bandwagon and say "oh that glider looks terrible, etc." does not mean I don't care about the gliders or how some are being saved. I am just adding my opinion like everyone else on this thread did. And making what I thought were some intelligent observations. OK?

I think being transparent is very important when dealing with rescues and asking for donations.A few things still seem a little less than transparent with this transaction .Sorry,its just how I see it.

OH Ed! I HATE text! That was NOT meant to be an "I'm right and I'm not going to argue with you" comment! I, and I'm sure everyone here, LOVE you and Gail and the fact that you not only rescue you educate! I have the absolute highest regard for you. I guess that what I was saying (I'm seriously running on no sleep and I don't do well like that and I'm also leaving in a few minutes to go to the funeral of a friend of mine's 14 year old son who hung himself so my "filter" is a bit low) is that I DON'T want to argue with you. I agree with you. This was not an ideal situation. I don't want this to be the norm. I want there to be a way to turn people in without having the gliders confiscated. I have that ability in FL, but NOT in GA. There is no rescue in GA.
I am very interested in doing whatever will help the glider community in general and rescues specifically. I have no strings. I have no conditions. I have no ulterior motives. And between Kim and I we have a lot of experience in rescue work with mills (dogs, cats etc) and hoarders and a huge sharing of information and resources would allow a bigger presence and the ability to leverage.

Scott,
If you have an issue with anything that I have done you are more than welcome to be specific. You don't have to PM me...I have no issue with you saying it for the forum to hear. IF I have done something wrong then I want to know. But I feel that I have been very upfront and claimed the fact that I was paying to get these gliders out. I could have done this and not revealed that I was doing something "taboo" in the rescue community. However, I felt that it was important to tell everyone what was happening honestly and do what I felt was in the best interest of the gliders even if it meant that I had rescuers mad at me. I don't want anyone to think badly of me, but I'm less concerned about that than I am about the gliders.
Again, please don't be vague. If you think that I've done something wrong let me know.

thats some serious discoloration good thing you got a hold of him

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TheHomermomma</i>
<br /> And between Kim and I we have a lot of experience in rescue work with mills (dogs, cats etc) and hoarders and a huge sharing of information and resources would allow a bigger presence and the ability to leverage.
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TheHomermomma, many thanks for the reply. Yes text is a pain sometimes because our true meaning is sometimes obscured.

I am very sincere about the "norms" I think we can establish as a community. With all the people out there who are involved in rescue we should be able to figure something out in terms of acting as a community on certain situations. I am terribly afraid of the Groundhog Day thing as you can tell.

For example, there was a similar effort we got involved in a number of years ago with Sandy's Lakeside Rabbitry in Gaffney SC. Our friend Karen from NC met the proprietor at a flea market and she said in a matter-of-fact way that she "breaks the necks" of biters. After months of begging with phone calls and FedEx packages with official offers in writing, etc. and promises to send volunteers to rescue the "biters" she said "no" to the rescue effort. Months later they claimed that they were no longer breeding sugar gliders. We had put together an informal railroad, a group of people interested in getting health checks for the cast-offs, etc. Why they did not want to cooperate in putting these so-called biters in sanctuary was anyone's guess.

In the end, the cajoling of one "crazy" rescuer just did not afford enough pressure to cause a behavior change.

So I understand how an approach to wayward breeders - mill or not - and getting them to cooperate is a dicey thing. I still cry for those poor animals who, considering the environment mass breeding represents, cannot exactly produce cuddly, hand-tamed animals - and who had their necks snapped just for being who they are.

We also relish the discipline of transparency, so I think it is good for us to belly up to that. It is hard to do this, as you point out, because it is easier to just not say anything about what you are doing. But in the end it establishes trust in the community and that is important. Lord knows we have paid a high price for transparency ourselves on a number of topics. For us, USDA oversight adds to that transparency and while technically we could argue we actually don't *need* a license, many of the people we transact with find comfort in the fact that we are licensed.

Anyway, we should keep up this dialog - maybe in another post - so we can learn more about how to deal with these situations as a community.

Many thanks, Ed

Seeing those poor babies in person was so much more awful... Kim's car still smells from them being in it.. even AFTER the cages were cleaned (before they went into her car). (I think a lot of the smell was from the moldy cat food, because that's what it smelled like, they somehow retained the smell.. probably from rubbing on those cages and eating it for so long.) It's really awful, most of them don't know what a pouch is and were too scared to go see or try to go into them. ): I'm really hopeful, though.

So glad everything worked out okay! You and Kim have done the right thing despite of what anyone else says. Those babies are now on the road to recovery and will be eventually be spoiled rotten!!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kozi Gliders</i>
<br />Seeing those poor babies in person was so much more awful... Kim's car still smells from them being in it.. even AFTER the cages were cleaned (before they went into her car). (I think a lot of the smell was from the moldy cat food, because that's what it smelled like, they somehow retained the smell.. probably from rubbing on those cages and eating it for so long.) It's really awful, most of them don't know what a pouch is and were too scared to go see or try to go into them. ): I'm really hopeful, though.
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Poor babies. Been there. Will pray for them!