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Apr 15 2012
08:28:52 AM
I was led to Gliderpedia today in an attempt to answer a diet question correctly. It concerned Ruths Modified Leadbeaters & BML. Well of course that had me comparing ingredients between these 2 diets.

Of course the first thing I see about BML is how outdated it is and the Rep-Cal called for is potentially dangerous.

Please know that I do not and have never fed this diet. I have never met Bourbon or even talked to her outside of FB and those comments are pretty generic. Most of us know that some people here have a personal issue with her and that's all well and good but IMO this forum is here, and mainly the Gliderpedia part, for new people to have a reliable source of information, so it baffles me as to how this disclaimer can be put on BML but not on Ruths?

They both use the same Calcium and Vitamin Supplements.

I think the disclaimer should either be removed from BML or also added to Ruths and I really hope whoever does the modifications on Gliderpedia will rectify this.

BML

1/2 cup honey
1 egg (hard boiled, scrambled, or microwaved, no shell)
1/4 cup apple juice
One 4oz bottle premixed Gerber juice with mixed fruit yogurt
1 TEAspoon Rep-Cal Herpivite Vitamin Supplement (blue label) <- Do Not Substitute
2 Teaspoons Rep-Cal Calcium Supplement Non-Phosphorous with Vitamin D3 in it (pink label) <- Do Not Substitute!
Two 2 1/2 oz. jars of Chicken baby food(Chicken with Broth or Chicken with Gravy)
1/4 cup Wheat Germ
1/2 cup dry baby cereal (mixed or oatmeal)

RUTHS

Apple Juice 1/2 cup
Honey 1/2 cup
Boiled egg 2 (I leave the shell on)
Gerber Baby cereal (dry flakes) 1/2 cup
Wheat Germ 1/4 cup
Rep-Cal (Calcium supplement with no phosphorus) 1 1/4 tsp
Herptivite Vitamin Supplement 1 tsp

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Apr 15 2012
11:54:12 AM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3478 Posts
Gliderpedia will remain biased against Bourbon. Nothing you can do about that. That's pretty much old news. Anyone can modify Gliderpedia, but if you seek impartial, accurate information, you shouldn't look there. Some modifications won't be accepted, and if you modify somethings, they will "revert" to the way they were.

If you wish to talk about the specific ingredients of BML, and express any concerns, I suggest you contact Bourbon. She has more information and has done more research and heard more specific results than anyone else on this subject. If you have questions, ask Bourbon.
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Apr 15 2012
12:45:42 PM
JazzNZoeysmom Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit JazzNZoeysmom's Photo Album USA 5354 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by valkyriemome

Gliderpedia will remain biased against Bourbon. Nothing you can do about that. That's pretty much old news. Anyone can modify Gliderpedia, but if you seek impartial, accurate information, you shouldn't look there. Some modifications won't be accepted, and if you modify somethings, they will "revert" to the way they were.

If you wish to talk about the specific ingredients of BML, and express any concerns, I suggest you contact Bourbon. She has more information and has done more research and heard more specific results than anyone else on this subject. If you have questions, ask Bourbon.




You are probably 100% correct on that.

I guess I just feel that information that is meant to educate should be impartial and speaking for myself... when I read something that is supposed to be informing me...just like I stumbled upon this morning.... I was looking for information to help educate someone on diet, or at least direct them to where they could go to get educated and I read something that seems so blatantly biased, it makes me question the motive and the validity of the information itself. I for one more often than not dismiss it, and the sad thing is, it may be very valid but the tone has totally turned me off.

The reason I bring this up is because we direct many newbys to Gliderpedia, and chances are, at this stage of glider ownership, new people don't know who Bourbon is, they don't know all the back-drama, they don't know enough to choose what information is true and which is biased...they don't know they can contact her with questions concerning her diet...heck, she's just the B in BML, they don't associate her as someone tangible and accessible.

I just feel that the information should be presented in a middle of the road way, then if it is feasible a disclaimer can be put at the bottom.

THIS ING. CONTAINS K3 WHICH HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...
Please research this for yourself so you may make an informed decision when feeding your gliders....

Something to that effect...and it should be put on all of these diets that seem to have questionable ingredients because the fact is, what is unacceptable to you may be acceptable to me.

Newbys come on here seeking answers and they think this stuff is written by people who are all knowing in all things glider. All I'm pointing out is, when they are around for awhile and start learning the ins & outs it can be quite disheartening when they finally see the "man behind the curtain" so to speak...and it can lead people to then not trust any of the information being offered which defeats the whole purpose.

I like this forum. I am on here more than any other and I would just hate to see it get to the point where people start saying, "oh don't go there, they have no idea what they're talking about!"
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Apr 15 2012
03:29:12 PM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3478 Posts
I would also love it if Gliderpedia were impartial.

it isn't.

And - many many many people already say "don't go there, they have no idea what they're talking about!" about this site. Sad but true.

The best way to combat that is to keep posting good information, and for people who have good information to stick with the site, and not leave after a time. Moderation would help, but isn't an option to the site owners. Having topics that stayed on topic would help. Having topics that didn't break out into random, immature arguments, which then stay posted, because the site isn't moderated would go a LONG way towards making things seem more legitimate. But - this is what we have instead.
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Apr 15 2012
06:17:42 PM
petluv15 Fuzzy Wuzzy Gliderpedia Editor Visit petluv15's Photo Album petluv15's Journal 1500 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by valkyriemome

Gliderpedia will remain biased against Bourbon. Nothing you can do about that. That's pretty much old news. Anyone can modify Gliderpedia, but if you seek impartial, accurate information, you shouldn't look there. Some modifications won't be accepted, and if you modify somethings, they will "revert" to the way they were.



Yep, that is exactly what happens. I edited the diets page and added in a link(sweet sugar glider diet page link) that wasn't biased against BML and all my edits were removed...

Perhaps our community should take a vote on if that should happen - at least the BML warnings should be prefaced with no necropsies have shown those effects happening in sugar gliders...
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Apr 15 2012
06:46:12 PM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
The community can vote on whatever they want. However, what would the results do? You could always try actually speaking to Kazko. He is a real person capable of intelligent conversation. Threads like this, that like to point out what's wrong with this site, certainly will not change anyone's mind about how they choose to run the site THEY own.
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Apr 15 2012
06:58:15 PM
JazzNZoeysmom Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit JazzNZoeysmom's Photo Album USA 5354 Posts
I was under the impression that certain people had permission to edit Gliderpedia. I was not aware that Terry is the one that picks and chooses what is actually in it.

This post was directed at the person(s) that I thought had such access.
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Apr 15 2012
07:10:14 PM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
Anyone can edit but that particular page was last edited by him.
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Apr 15 2012
09:04:17 PM
petluv15 Fuzzy Wuzzy Gliderpedia Editor Visit petluv15's Photo Album petluv15's Journal 1500 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by valkyriemome

Gliderpedia will remain biased against Bourbon. Nothing you can do about that. That's pretty much old news. Anyone can modify Gliderpedia, but if you seek impartial, accurate information, you shouldn't look there. Some modifications won't be accepted, and if you modify somethings, they will "revert" to the way they were.



Yep, that is exactly what happens. I edited the diets page and added in a link(sweet sugar glider diet page link) that wasn't biased against BML and all my edits were removed...

Perhaps our community should take a vote on if that should happen - at least the BML warnings should be prefaced with no necropsies have shown those effects happening in sugar gliders...
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Apr 20 2012
07:40:38 PM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3478 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by kyro298

Anyone can edit but that particular page was last edited by him.



My only point was - that yes, anyone can edit, but your changes will be deleted.
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Apr 27 2012
12:31:14 PM
Eric C Retired GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Eric C's Photo Album Eric C's Journal TX, USA 2316 Posts
JazzNZoeysmom:

I'm not sure what it means to say that a diet is outdated. To say that has an implication that newer diets are somehow better, which is something I would personally disagree with.

If your concern is about a lack of mention of menadione on the page regarding Ruth's diet, then I can assure you that that omission is simply an oversight and in no way intentional. That Ruth's diet is even included in the Gliderpedia is simply as an additional resource, largely historical.

I think the oversight of not having a disclaimer on Ruth's diet page isn't that big of a deal. Indeed, had I been asked prior to this discussion what the difference is between Ruth's diet and BML, I would have said that it was the vitamins. I was genuinely surprised to see that the vitamin supplement was the same. Of course, memorizing which diet uses which company's supplement is not something I care to do. But that's simply a side note. The reason I don't think it's a big deal that Ruth's page doesn't have the disclaimer is that Ruth's diet is nowhere near as heavily promoted as BML. I think you would be hard pressed to find a mention of Ruth's diet anywhere else, whereas for BML, you'll find that mentioned all over the place, and promoted as a diet to be used.

If you feel so strongly that the disclaimer is needed on Ruth's, then please feel free to become a an editor and fix it yourself. However, you might find that the other side of the coin is that perhaps the inclusion of a synthetic vitamin K may not be that big of an issue and that the disclaimer on BML should be removed.

This sort of conundrum arises because both Ruth's diet and BML fall under the category of husbandry, and husbandry is largely just opinion. Just like there is no one right way to raise human children, the same easily applies to owning pets.

Diet has always been a hot topic and always will be. You may want to read my original thoughts on the diet pages, www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7893 And I highly suggest you look at the posts I made on the focus and purpose of the gliderpedia, suggestions on article guidelines, and most importantly the responses I received:
www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7084
www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7272
www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7110
www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7598
www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7315

As you can see from the responses, no one was really interested in helping to create and ultimately shape the gliderpedia into a useful resource. I'd like to reiterate my stance on diet, in that I think the gliderpedia should focus on the wild glider and not the captive glider. However, my personal life has prevented me from doing much with this website anymore, and so Kazko took over the lead with maintaining the site, and thus the gliderpedia. We differ in opinion on what the focus of the gliderpdia should be, and I offer to you Kazko's discussion on the role of diet in the gliderpedia: www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18937

Obviously, the focus and direction of the Gliderpedia has changed. Now that it includes husbandry, there will inevitably be differences of opinion regarding its content. Even though the purity of focusing on only the wild glider that I had originally wanted is now just an afterthought, I can't say that the gliderpedia is any worse off now. Personally, I think that even with any faults or differences of opinion, it's still an extremely useful tool. And I do stress that it is merely a tool. Having a consolidated location of all sorts of glider information that is relatively easy to edit and create is very useful in my opinion. That it is not perfect does not make it any less useful.

In terms of the editing diet pages in the gliderpedia, and I sincerely hope that I've stressed that such a thing falls under the "opinion" category, it might be more fruitful to start a discussion as a means of gathering input and other people's opinions. I much prefer cogent discussions over unsubstantiated fluff.
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Apr 27 2012
12:31:57 PM
Eric C Retired GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Eric C's Photo Album Eric C's Journal TX, USA 2316 Posts
valkyriemome:

Your hatred and contempt for this website and the people that visit it is unwelcome. If you feel the need to reinterpret other people's actions to suit your own skewed world view, then that is your choice, but go elsewhere to do it.
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Apr 27 2012
12:32:25 PM
Eric C Retired GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Eric C's Photo Album Eric C's Journal TX, USA 2316 Posts
petluv15:

When people from that other forum come to this site en masse for the sole purpose of causing drama, any edits to the gliderpedia are typically considered defacements. This is especially true when the edits look to be self promotional in such that they contain content or links to unknown or fly-by-night websites.
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Apr 28 2012
01:38:04 AM
valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes Visit valkyriemome's Photo Album USA 3478 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by Eric C

valkyriemome:

Your hatred and contempt for this website and the people that visit it is unwelcome. If you feel the need to reinterpret other people's actions to suit your own skewed world view, then that is your choice, but go elsewhere to do it.



I think you misread what I wrote, Eric. I don't hate this site, nor feel contempt for it.

I offered suggestions for how the general out-side-looking-in view of the site could be improved. I didn't do that because I hate the site! I did that because I think it would benefit everyone in the glider community, and especially new owners, if the site were more accepted and given the credit it deserves.

I've certainly never argued against the fact that the owners of a site get to do things the way they see fit. Not on this site or any other privately owned glider forum.
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Apr 28 2012
08:50:47 AM
Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector Visit Omis n Kais g-ma's Photo Album TX, USA 7524 Posts
Okay, I know I have missed something here. Who wants to change what and why? Why not ask the creator of the diet to do so if it is a diet issue?

Edited by - Omis n Kais g-ma on Apr 28 2012 08:52:26 AM
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Apr 28 2012
10:08:38 AM
DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy Visit DoubleBogey's Photo Album USA 1244 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma

Okay, I know I have missed something here. Who wants to change what and why? Why not ask the creator of the diet to do so if it is a diet issue?



I don't know about Ruth but I know the creator of BML (i.e. Bourbon) cannot edit the gliderpedia so that would be tough.
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Apr 28 2012
10:18:52 AM
JazzNZoeysmom Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit JazzNZoeysmom's Photo Album USA 5354 Posts
Thank you Eric, and your point about the disclaimer being removed from BML was exactly my point. IMO either have it on both or remove it from the one since it's the very same supplement.

I have since learned that there is no love lost between Terry & Bourbon and maybe that is why the information is skewed or as you said, Ruths isn't really wide spread so maybe it was a simple oversight. Again, I can only speak for myself but I do send people to Gliderpedia and when I do I would just like to know I'm giving them the best info. available, and now that Ruths IS in there, it may pick up a bit of steam and have more people using it, which leads us right back to discalimer or no disclaimer.

I was feeding one of the "recognized" diets for awhile in the beginning. As I became more knowledgable and learned what questions I needed to ask...I asked those of the creator...I got run around in circles and I feel mislead on some of the points that concerned me. Needless to say, I no longer feed that diet and will not recommend it. That experience came to mind when I came across this BML/RUTHS issue in Gliderpedia and I just know that if I feel like someone is misleading me or giving me false info. on one thing, what other information they give is false and misleading?

I didn't want that to be the case for others if they came across this discrepency in Gliderpedia...that was my whole thought behind this thread.

I didn't mean to insult anyone or tell you or Terry what should or shouldn't be on YOUR forum. As I mentioned, I thought new forum members had access to get in and change things & I thought that may have been the case, and if so, they should pay closer attention to the info. they put out there for the public.

IF it was done out of pure malic for Bourbon by you or Terry, HEY! I may not agree but it's your forum and you can do whatever you want, and if it bothers me so much I guess I can make a dramatic Goodbye post and make my exit!
(not saying it was, just saying it's your guys' perogotive to do as you wish and those that don't like it can leave)

And I thank you for your post, it actually gives me some insight as to the direction you had in mind for Gliderpedia...and maybe I will become an editor in time. At this point I don't feel knowledgable enough to contribute. I know how new owners feel and believe me, in the beginning we hang onto info. from sources like Gliderpedia like it's Gospel! ~ Another reason for my post. I know people will read this info. and feel like it must be written by glider experts, hence be 100% true...I just wouldn't want to mislead anyone.
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