 |
|
| | | |
| |
|
  |  Jerrycnh
Glider
  119 Posts
| Jun 13 2012 : 11:05:25 PM    |
 |
So my colony of 3 has become a colony of 5. :) I swore I wouldn't buy any more, but there were these adorable cinnamon colored ones... well, you know how that story ends.
The two cinnamon suggies (affectionately named "Pinky and the Brain", for now - we'll see if those names stick) have proven a much bigger challenge for me than my past integration experiences. Part of it is just that Pinky is, well, insane... she still crabs up a storm if anyone, glider or human, goes anywhere near her, she hates bonding pouches and will crab for a good half hour before settling down whenever put in one, and although she'll crawl on me a little bit when let out in my room, she otherwise dodges me even if I have /food/. Bonding with her is going to be a tough, long process, but I'm not worried about that part, I know time will do that for me, and The Brain is already starting to form a pretty strong bond with me, she eagerly leaps on me when playing and rides my shoulders whenever I'm walking around, always switching between them to see which gives her the better view. :)
What's driving me crazy, however, is integrating the colony of 3 with the colony of 2. They still attack on sight when sniffing each other through the bars, trading sleeping pouches doesn't seem to be helping them adjust to each others' scent much at all (actually my male responds by scent-bombing the offending pouch immediately), and on the one occasion when I was stupid enough to wear a new fresh shirt while playing with the new gliders, the old ones /attacked/ me because they couldn't smell my scent or their own scent, just the opposing colony's. :P They even got aggressive with each other one morning after sleeping in the opposing colony pouch when I put out food for them, I had to isolate my male for a day until it wore off.
Is it possible for integration to fail completely? Are there any "advanced" techniques to help gliders adjust to each other when the regular tricks fail?
|
| | JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
 USA
5349 Posts
| Jun 13 2012 : 11:09:56 PM  |
|
Yeah, unfortunately sometimes intros fail. Fact is they each already have a friend so they appear to not really care to get more.
There is a "wet method" of intros...I believe it's under Gliderpedia. I have never done it and most people use it as a last resort...hop up there and read about it and see if it's something you think may help you.
|
 | petluv15
Fuzzy Wuzzy
 1500 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 07:54:12 AM  |
|
Chances are it is because your male is intact and its possible the females are pregnant(but you can't tell yet). If you get them introduced, you are just asking for cannabalized joeys, rejection, etc. so I'd be thankful the gliders are telling you now that they aren't happy about it.
Also, intros should NEVER happen between the cage bars - it should be ONE on ONE in a neutral area. Almost every glider is going to be territorial and NOT want strange gliders by their cage - they are seen as invaders and threats.
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 08:58:23 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
Chances are it is because your male is intact and its possible the females are pregnant(but you can't tell yet). If you get them introduced, you are just asking for cannabalized joeys, rejection, etc. so I'd be thankful the gliders are telling you now that they aren't happy about it
Well /supposedly/ the new cinnamon gliders are only 11 weeks old, 9 when I bought them... I sincerely doubt that's the case, because if they are then they're the biggest 11 week olds I've ever seen. :P (I don't know why people feel the need to lie, honestly, they're adorable enough and the price was right that I'd have been just as happy with them as 'declared' adults). My Serenity is 7 months now and /just/ starting to look the same size as her adult playmates.
I'll wait it out and continue with traditional methods until I'm 100% sure they're not pregnant. That would be... four weeks, if I'm doing my glider math right? A few more days for them to birth into the pouch, and three weeks to mature to the point where their bumps in there are unmistakable?
If anyone's pregnant, it's likely one of the greys, but then they'd probably react the same way in that case, I guess.
Once pregnancy can be ruled out, if they haven't made any headway by then, I'll try the wet method.
|
 | renee14150
Fuzzy Wuzzy
1810 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 09:10:28 AM |
|
I think you might be moving too fast. Did you read up on introductions and 30 day quarantine? Vet checks? If not, please do - you can go up to gliderpedia and search it. It really does take time with the scent swapping (pouches, toys and eventually cages) and then intros should be done one on one in a scent neutral area. Gliders are very territorial.
If your males aren't neutered then chances are it won't work - they will fight for dominance and could seriously injure or even kill each other. Females shouldn't be bred until they are about a year old. Joeys are very often rejected or canabalized when they become mom's too young. When considereing breeding please keep all that in mind - cuz having a rejected joey is more work than a newborn human baby. Feedings every hour 24/7.
Edited by - renee14150 on Jun 14 2012 09:12:39 AM
|
| petluv15
Fuzzy Wuzzy
1500 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 09:33:53 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
Chances are it is because your male is intact and its possible the females are pregnant(but you can't tell yet). If you get them introduced, you are just asking for cannabalized joeys, rejection, etc. so I'd be thankful the gliders are telling you now that they aren't happy about it
Well /supposedly/ the new cinnamon gliders are only 11 weeks old, 9 when I bought them... I sincerely doubt that's the case, because if they are then they're the biggest 11 week olds I've ever seen. :P (I don't know why people feel the need to lie, honestly, they're adorable enough and the price was right that I'd have been just as happy with them as 'declared' adults). My Serenity is 7 months now and /just/ starting to look the same size as her adult playmates.
I'll wait it out and continue with traditional methods until I'm 100% sure they're not pregnant. That would be... four weeks, if I'm doing my glider math right? A few more days for them to birth into the pouch, and three weeks to mature to the point where their bumps in there are unmistakable?
If anyone's pregnant, it's likely one of the greys, but then they'd probably react the same way in that case, I guess.
Once pregnancy can be ruled out, if they haven't made any headway by then, I'll try the wet method.
Chances are you cinnamons are stained greys - TRUE cinnamons are actually rare and if the people lied about their age, they probably have no idea that staining isn't their true color.
And this is not to mention the fact that despite the lies, you still went ahead and skipped quarantine and probably won't take any of them to the vet to screen for parasites which can and will bloom during stress and right now they're on stress overload - new home, new person, said person putting them in harms way near the cage of other gliders, said person thinking about using the wet method when they are happy as a pair, etc.
You won't be able to know that she is not pregnant UNLESS AND UNTIL you neuter your male and wait. They continue to go into heat every month and unless you catch them in the act of mating(which most often times you never will), then you have to assume she is pregnant once she is old enough(which at 7 months they are sexually mature although too young IMO to be having joeys as they aren't done growing physically).
I think its downright PATHETIC to use wet methods to force an intro when its only going to lead to lots of joeys dying - trios are hard enough with joey snatching/cannabalization that many breeders will only stick with breeding pair. Now you want to try breeding FOUR females to one male and chances are the poor females will have their joeys pulled and killed over and over. Not to mention the stress of intro'ing them that way. The wet method was used for LONE gliders who needed a cage mate(over grooming, stressed, etc.) but wouldn't accept one easily - it is NOT because you want to merge a pair with a trio to have 4 breeding females...
|
| som3randomp3rson
Face Hugger
949 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 10:03:03 AM |
|
I'm hopefully getting my Luna a cagemate soon, so I've been starting my research on introductions. A lot of what I've read has pointed out that introductions often don't work, or don't work as well, with established colonies. I've also read that when attempting to introduce a single glider (or a pair) to an already-established colony, one should do introductions on a one-on-one basis. And even then it still may not work. The reading I've done said that when you bring another glider(s) into the home with the intention of trying introductions, you should be ready for those introductions to possibly fail. You may end up with two colonies in two separate cages.
I think you should really listen to the things people have already said too. Vet visits and quarantine are important to ensure the health and safety of all your gliders. Luna and I just went for her first vet visit yesterday (she's healthy and parasite free!) And any new glider I add to our home will also go. It will make me feel so much more comfortable and secure to know both gliders are healthy and neither can pass on parasites to the other.
|
| JRMMJONES
Face Hugger
USA
405 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 10:26:02 AM |
|
Call Ed and Gail at Lucky Glider. They can give you pointers.
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 10:46:44 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
Chances are you cinnamons are stained greys - TRUE cinnamons are actually rare and if the people lied about their age, they probably have no idea that staining isn't their true color.
Their coloring is pretty to me. Honestly, as long as it doesn't wash off, why would I care whether the coloring was "genuine" or "stained"? A color's a color. And if it does wash off and I have 5 greys, so be it - I'll feel a little ripped off, but they're still my gliders now, I'm not about to reject them over something that petty.
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
And this is not to mention the fact that despite the lies, you still went ahead and skipped quarantine and probably won't take any of them to the vet to screen for parasites which can and will bloom during stress
They're in one cage, the others are in the other. Their interaction has been limited to a few sniffs through the bars for seconds. That sounds like quarantine to me. :P
Or are you suggesting they have to be in different rooms or something?
And you're right - there won't be any vet visits. So far, my success rate on that policy is 100%, given the condition and health of my trio. I get that taking a glider to the vet gives peace of mind to know "for sure" that the glider will be fine (vets can be wrong, so it's really only being 99% sure instead of 50% sure), but I don't mind waiting and finding out the natural way. I hate spoilers.
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
and right now they're on stress overload - new home, new person, said person putting them in harms way near the cage of other gliders, said person thinking about using the wet method when they are happy as a pair, etc.
Unless gliders develop teleportation or mind-reading powers, I don't think being 3 feet away from another glider cage counts as being "in harms way", nor can my /thoughts/ on using the wet method or any other subject stress them out unduly. Honestly, I know you think I'm evil, but really, my /thoughts/?!? As long as you keep talking like a fanatic you're never going to convince me that all your PETA-style neurotic concerns (and that's exactly what they are from my perspective, neurotic and paranoid and ridiculously over-the-top) have any merit at all.
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
You won't be able to know that she is not pregnant UNLESS AND UNTIL you neuter your male and wait.
True of my three greys, yes. But I'm pretty sure my two female faux-cinnamons aren't going to "get" pregnant if they're not already. Not without a miracle.
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
They continue to go into heat every month and unless you catch them in the act of mating(which most often times you never will), then you have to assume she is pregnant once she is old enough(which at 7 months they are sexually mature although too young IMO to be having joeys as they aren't done growing physically).
I suppose I could isolate the male for a month, but /that/ would be cruel - I've read that removing the dominant glider from a hierarchy can cause serious problems to their whole social structure and wig out all of them long term. So since that's not an option, my choices are to never integrate them or take my chances that they won't acclimate to each other in time and a joey or two might die during their adjustment process. Depending on how my integration attempts go over the next few months, I may very well wind up with two colonies in two cages - if it goes that way, so be it. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if I get all five of them together and something goes wrong with a joey. It'll be sad, but... well, you know the old metaphor about omelets and eggs. Every egg is a baby chicken that never had a chance, y'know.
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
I think its downright PATHETIC to use wet methods to force an intro when its only going to lead to lots of joeys dying - trios are hard enough with joey snatching/cannabalization that many breeders will only stick with breeding pair.
See above, re: omelet/egg. And you can't /guarantee/ that integration via the wet or any other method is going to cause "lots of joeys dying". There's another thread going on right now on here that's talking about other female joeys in a colony helping to raise each others' young, and the near unanimous consensus among the people posting in it is that it works out. There may be a joey problem for a few months, tops, but if integration works, they /will/ start to see each other in the same heirarchy, which in the LONG term will actually IMPROVE a joey's chance of survival with so many colony mates watching over it.
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
Now you want to try breeding FOUR females to one male and chances are the poor females will have their joeys pulled and killed over and over. Not to mention the stress of intro'ing them that way. The wet method was used for LONE gliders who needed a cage mate(over grooming, stressed, etc.) but wouldn't accept one easily - it is NOT because you want to merge a pair with a trio to have 4 breeding females...
Let's clear up a couple of things for the record. One, I didn't buy these two thinking "oh yay, four females, good luck with your new harem Ren". I bought them because they have a pretty color. :) The only point at which anything remotely breeding related entered my mind was when I had the thought "good, both females, I don't have to worry about another male causing a dominance fight".
As for your assertion that the wet method "was used for lone gliders only"... once again, this is why your raving has no credibility with me. THIS VERY SITE, in it's entries on the wet method, not only fail to ever suggest such a thing, but goes on to show example videos and stories that mostly center around introing SEVEN sugar gliders from three colonies simultaneously. (Just a funny side note, I just started proofreading what I've written, and in a couple of places I found I'd accidentally typed "rhythm method" instead of "wet method" - it's all this talk of joeys and breeding, I swear!)
To quote the Gliderpedia itself: "A wet sugar glider is fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting an animal wet. It actually appears to happen in nature on occasion. {I found that statement hilarious, I read it with what I believe was the intended sarcasm.} The impulse to seek safety and to groom are much stronger than the impulse to attack a new scent sugar glider."
I do appreciate your insights, if not your judgmental delivery of them. If nothing else, you make me do my homework, which never hurts in the end. :)
|
| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 10:58:49 AM |
|
Hi Jerry - I have a few questions so that I can try to help.
First - the 3 gliders that you have today are a male and two females, right? Where did they come from? Lineage? Breeding now? How long have you been breeding? How long have you had gliders? Any losses?
On the 2 new gliders (congrats btw!) - they are adolescent girls it seems and you want to intro them into the colony you currently have, yes? Where did you get those girls? Lineage? Any health records included?
I want to be sure I understand what you are saying here too if you don't mind.
Quote: "And you're right - there won't be any vet visits. So far, my success rate on that policy is 100%, given the condition and health of my trio. I get that taking a glider to the vet gives peace of mind to know "for sure" that the glider will be fine (vets can be wrong, so it's really only being 99% sure instead of 50% sure), but I don't mind waiting and finding out the natural way. I hate spoilers." End Quote
Are you saying that you don't take your gliders to the vet at all? Have never? That you don't believe in doing fecals (which provide finite results) or am I reading that out of context. It happens sometimes in the middle of a long discussion with quotes. If I have it right, help me understand the basis for your decision here. Thank you!
Edited by - DoubleBogey on Jun 14 2012 11:03:33 AM
|
| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 11:01:13 AM |
|
Oh and another question - I know you mentioned that you didn't buy these gliders with the whole "Good luck with your new harem, Ren" mentality but tell me what your goals are with these gliders. Are you planning to breed them or are you planning to neuter and make a pet colony? I know it seems like the focus of my response is on breeding and intact status but that is a HUGE part of your introduction and it's success. SO bear with me there. Still reading also.
|
| | JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
5349 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 11:05:12 AM |
|
Jerry I'm not gonna touch base on everything but I will comment on a couple things....
I agree with you, I think cinnamon gliders are beautiful & I know you won't reject them if/when they turn to Standard Greys but you need to be aware that the staining is caused by poor diet & when you put them on a good diet, in time they will revert to their natural color....so while it "won't wash off," it will change in time with good diet.
And a note about vets.... my Kodah had roundworms when I took him in before intros....he had NO symptoms whatsoever...he's the biggest of the bunch and was when I first got him so I had nothing to "worry" me,...like he was scrawny or dehydrated, not eating...ect.
So while all your babies may appear healthy, one or more "could" have a worm or parasite that hasn't shown itself. Just something to consider...being eaten alive from the inside wouldn't be a very nice way to go and I know you wouldn't want that for any of your babies.
Also, even if you don't want to take them in for a wellness check, you can get a communal cage fecal sample & just run it to the vet...they don't have to have the actual animal(s).... but it could, as you said, give peace of mind.
Keep us posted on your progress... I for one am very interested as I am in the process of intro-ing my 5 to my new twins and I'm a bit uneasy about it.
|
| petluv15
Fuzzy Wuzzy
1500 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 11:08:32 AM |
|
Gliderpedia can be written/edited by almost anyone and seeing as the owner of this site is the one who wrote about/used the wet method, yeah its going to be in there - doesn't mean its advisable in your case.
Ed, of Lucky Glider has used it twice for lone gliders. Several others have tried it and it really doesn't always work especially with colonies - often times once they're dry they start to reject one of the new comers.
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31164&whichpage=1
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31178
If you do a search on posts, especially on other glider forums but on this one as well, the majority consensus is that it is NOT an acceptable method except for extreme cases of lone gliders that are overgrooming/SMing without a buddy.
SOME use water(like a squirt bottle) as a means to break up a fight during intros - that is NOT considered the wet method...
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 11:40:03 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Hi Jerry - I have a few questions so that I can try to help.
First - the 3 gliders that you have today are a male and two females, right? Where did they come from? Lineage? Breeding now? How long have you been breeding? How long have you had gliders? Any losses?
I've had my gliders for about 7 months now. First the baby, Serenity (who, by the math, must actually be 9 months old now - WOW, time flies), a female who came to me from Pocket Pets at the mall. It was my first exposure to the existence of gliders and, of course, I fell in love immediately. :) Particularly with the "cinnamon" glider that they were showing off in their demonstrations. I love that color - in fact, one of my questions to them when buying Serenity was whether or not she'd be cinnamon when she got older because I really wanted a cinnamon one, to which they told me that "a glider's coloring comes out naturally as they age". (Knowing what I now know, perhaps he wasn't so much lying as simply believing that to be true based on his own experience with his glider "turning" cinnamon over a poor diet.)
I wasn't /completely/ fooled by their pitch, I just decided that I wanted the glider no matter what, and that when I got home I would simply do my research on the internet and find out the truth.
And oh boy, did I ever. :)
It didn't take long to find this site and, at the urging of people here, I immediately got Glider #2, Precious, a 2 year old female listed on Craigslist whose owners were moving and couldn't take her to their new location. Precious came with a crappy white bird cage, which I put next to Serenity's PP cage and let them get to know each other through the bars for awhile before taking them both to a neutral room for formal introductions, which went very very well.
A month later, I got Ren, an intact male - and yes, /that/ purchase was made with breeding in mind. I'm eager to have a large colony, ideally I want 15 of the little guys as I adore playing with them and watching them play and taking them out with me and so on... not to mention many friends who would like to get involved in the hobby that I'll eagerly share excess gliders with and get them started once I have my 15. I'll share my long term plan on that later, if you're interested. (There was a Stimpy, but the owner decided she couldn't part with him and kept him at the last moment.)
Anyway, the trio - Ren, Precious, and Serenity - have been happily living in their new, full sized aviary cage for the last 5 months and generally loving life.
2 weeks ago, Pinky and the Brain came into the picture, they didn't come with a cage so they're living in Serenity's old PP cage until integration either succeeds, in which case they'll have the room of the spacious aviary cage, or fails, in which case I'll get them their own big cage.
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
On the 2 new gliders (congrats btw!) - they are adolescent girls it seems and you want to intro them into the colony you currently have, yes? Where did you get those girls? Lineage? Any health records included?
They also came from Craigslist, I actually had to drive three hours out to pick them up. No lineage or health records included, the story I was told was that their former owners had bought two similar ones for themselves unaware that their female was pregnant, and a week later - POP! - out come these two, who they hand raised from Day 1 until they were 9 weeks old and then sold them to me. They didn't use any bonding pouches, which I believe is why Pinky is so averse to them, she HATES it (she's around my neck right now, she's calm now but she'll crab for a minute once every hour or so, to the point where I'm starting to question whether the bonding pouch is doing more harm than good - she did let me touch her today without crabbing, and she sleeps in my shirt, so it's not like she "needs" the pouch to get my scent... but that's a topic for another thread.)
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
I want to be sure I understand what you are saying here too if you don't mind.
Quote: "And you're right - there won't be any vet visits. So far, my success rate on that policy is 100%, given the condition and health of my trio. I get that taking a glider to the vet gives peace of mind to know "for sure" that the glider will be fine (vets can be wrong, so it's really only being 99% sure instead of 50% sure), but I don't mind waiting and finding out the natural way. I hate spoilers." End Quote
Are you saying that you don't take your gliders to the vet at all? Have never? That you don't believe in doing fecals (which provide finite results) or am I reading that out of context. It happens sometimes in the middle of a long discussion with quotes. If I have it right, help me understand the basis for your decision here. Thank you!
It's entirely a question of finances, to be honest. I VERY rarely go to the doctor myself - no physicals, not when I'm sick, I mean I literally have to be at death's door before I consider seeing one. Same with my family - a kid with a cold in this house gets chicken soup, not antibiotics, and they rough it out.
Mind you, I do see /other/ benefits to that in humans, I think our immune systems develop better naturally if they get to fight disease themselves instead of relying on medicine.
With the gliders, though, it's purely about money. They're expensive enough as it is, what with all the extra food expenses, toys, pouches, etc... not that I don't enjoy spoiling them. :) But a vet visit, and yes I know this is going to sound HORRIBLY cruel, but a single vet visit would run me exactly the same, dollarwise, as replacing a dead glider would if it came to that. It's just not a good return on investment, ESPECIALLY a wellness visit. Maybe if I /knew/ one of them was sick or injured, I'd consider it, but it's not an expense I can justify for "just in case". Not for myself /or/ for my gliders.
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
I know you mentioned that you didn't buy these gliders with the whole "Good luck with your new harem, Ren" mentality but tell me what your goals are with these gliders. Are you planning to breed them or are you planning to neuter and make a pet colony? I know it seems like the focus of my response is on breeding and intact status but that is a HUGE part of your introduction and it's success. SO bear with me there. Still reading also.
Well, I don't intend to neuter Ren, no. I'm perfectly happy to let my gliders breed, but the new gliders will also be pets - I'm not interested in selling any. People here have warned me about the dangers of inbreeding, so my intention is to keep any girl offspring and give away any males, two at a time, to friends who want to take up the hobby (and there's a wicked long line for that, as I'm sure you'd expect), thus ensuring that any inbreeding is limited to one generation, tops. One I hit 15, the maximum number that I think I can handle, then /all/ future gliders would be given away (except, of course, to replace older gliders or sick gliders as they die). That would be the pattern until I die, and likely continue until my descendants decide they don't want gliders anymore (at which point I'll be too dead to have much say in the matter, hehe).
quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysMom
So while all your babies may appear healthy, one or more "could" have a worm or parasite that hasn't shown itself. Just something to consider...being eaten alive from the inside wouldn't be a very nice way to go and I know you wouldn't want that for any of your babies.
Also, even if you don't want to take them in for a wellness check, you can get a communal cage fecal sample & just run it to the vet...they don't have to have the actual animal(s).... but it could, as you said, give peace of mind.
You're right, that... doesn't sound appealing. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, person or animal. If the glider ever showed signs of it, I'd seriously consider taking him/her to the vet, even knowing that by then it was probably too late to do anything other than humane euthanasia.
But unfortunately, I won't do anything pre-emptive.
quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysMom
Keep us posted on your progress... I for one am very interested as I am in the process of intro-ing my 5 to my new twins and I'm a bit uneasy about it.
I will. :)
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 11:54:19 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by petluv15
Gliderpedia can be written/edited by almost anyone and seeing as the owner of this site is the one who wrote about/used the wet method, yeah its going to be in there - doesn't mean its advisable in your case.
Ed, of Lucky Glider has used it twice for lone gliders. Several others have tried it and it really doesn't always work especially with colonies - often times once they're dry they start to reject one of the new comers.
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31164&whichpage=1
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31178
If you do a search on posts, especially on other glider forums but on this one as well, the majority consensus is that it is NOT an acceptable method except for extreme cases of lone gliders that are overgrooming/SMing without a buddy.
SOME use water(like a squirt bottle) as a means to break up a fight during intros - that is NOT considered the wet method...
It makes sense that once they're dry, scent issues would reassert themselves. As I said in my original post, I had to do the reverse, isolate my male for one day because they all smelled so much like the /other/ colony from sleeping in the same pouch that they were attacking each other until the scent wore off. I had my doubts about the wet method based on that logic, and it's unsettling to hear those doubts repeated back to me.
Like I said, it's a last resort. For the next few weeks I intend to keep doing what I've been doing - swapping sleeping pouches and other items to get them acclimated to each others' scent. One thing that worked great when I was integrating Ren was switching cages entirely, which I intend to do to these guys at some point (although I'm a little concerned about that, the PP cage is pretty small for 3 gliders, even for just a day or two, but I'll try it and see what happens).
I like the squirt bottle idea. When I start doing one-on-one physical introductions in my spare cage, I'll keep a squirt bottle handy just in case.
|
| dooney
Face Hugger
519 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 11:55:11 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
yes I know this is going to sound HORRIBLY cruel, but a single vet visit would run me exactly the same, dollarwise, as replacing a dead glider would if it came to that.
OMG....Did I just read this correctly?
|
| dooney
Face Hugger
519 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:05:03 PM |
|
I feel very sorry for your gliders. 
|
| JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
5349 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:05:28 PM |
|
But a vet visit, and yes I know this is going to sound HORRIBLY cruel, but a single vet visit would run me exactly the same, dollarwise, as replacing a dead glider would if it came to that.
This should not be true.... when I ran a fecal to my vet she charged me $20. You may want to check with your vet and double check that...if money is the only issue keeping you from doing fecals.
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:05:52 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by dooney
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
yes I know this is going to sound HORRIBLY cruel, but a single vet visit would run me exactly the same, dollarwise, as replacing a dead glider would if it came to that.
OMG....Did I just read this correctly?
Yup. I stand by it, too. THEY'RE. NOT. HUMAN. They're adorable, I enjoy their company, I'll be sad when one dies, but it's already inevitable that, barring some major catastrophe with my own health, I will outlive every single one of them. So I'm not going to put the same value on their lives as I would on a human life - they die, they die.
If it's of something that could have been prevented by taking them to a vet, well... there are no vets in the wild. So it goes. Any glider that lives past 5-7 years already had more of a life with me than they'd have had in the wild anyway.
If it's of something they wouldn't have gotten if they weren't in captivity... then they died exactly as they lived, FOR MY BENEFIT. If I got joy out of their existence, whether for a day or ten years, then they fulfilled their purpose, because they exist SOLELY for my pleasure and the pleasure of those I deem fit to share them with.
They are property, pure and simple, and I will be as distraught over their deaths as I will be when this computer stops working - because they have the same value as this computer. "Darn, that sucks - I really liked that thing. Oh well, time to get a new one."
You think I'm evil for that philosophy. I think anyone who gets more attached to their pets than that isn't prepared for the reality of owning a pet with a shorter lifespan than theirs. I'll love them while they're here - and I'll let them go when they're not here any longer.
Actually, that's kind of how I see human deaths, too, so I guess it isn't so different.
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:07:14 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysmom
But a vet visit, and yes I know this is going to sound HORRIBLY cruel, but a single vet visit would run me exactly the same, dollarwise, as replacing a dead glider would if it came to that.
This should not be true.... when I ran a fecal to my vet she charged me $20. You may want to check with your vet and double check that...if money is the only issue keeping you from doing fecals.
Oh. Well if THAT'S the case, I don't have an issue with that. I will check into it and let you know. $100 for one glider is a lot, but $100 for all 5... that's doable.
|
| renee14150
Fuzzy Wuzzy
1810 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:12:18 PM |
|
Wow - all I can say is WOW. You have more homework to do. 15 would never live together in one cage (jmo) - as I've always understood that somewhere between 5 & 7 are the max for a colony.
Your intensions to allow dad to breed with daughters is terrible. Inbreeding causes deformities and illness - not cool.
While your thinking on vets seems to make sense to you....you are setting yourself up for disaster. If by chance any of them has a parasite you will now HAVE to treat all the gliders with medication. Not just the one. And if you don't treat them all they will all possibly die. Yes, quaratine means separate rooms. If your kid is sick and it's airborne, you would get it from breathing the same air or touching the same surface.
And trust me - I'm far from PETA mentality. Your thought process is just plain cruel and self serving.
|
|
| | dooney
Face Hugger
519 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:15:32 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
they died exactly as they lived, FOR MY BENEFIT. If I got joy out of their existence, whether for a day or ten years, then they fulfilled their purpose, because they exist SOLELY for my pleasure and the pleasure of those I deem fit to share them with.
They are property, pure and simple, and I will be as distraught over their deaths as I will be when this computer stops working - because they have the same value as this computer. "Darn, that sucks - I really liked that thing. Oh well, time to get a new one."
You think I'm evil for that philosophy. I think anyone who gets more attached to their pets than that isn't prepared for the reality of owning a pet with a shorter lifespan than theirs. I'll love them while they're here - and I'll let them go when they're not here any longer.
Actually, that's kind of how I see human deaths, too, so I guess it isn't so different.
I honestly think you have some sensitivity issues (dang and I thought I had a hard time being compassionate) to you definitely take 1st place here.
Again I feel very sorry for your gliders. They have feelings, they love, they mourn, they are NOT just property.
I also did not say your were evil, What I really want to say I cant on here. Already got in trouble on another forum, I'll be darned if you get the best of me on here!
You need to grow up and get a heart~!
|
| JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
5349 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:32:51 PM |
|
Guys, there's really no point in getting riled up over Jerrys' outlook on this....he's made it clear from the day he joined the forum, and yes, most don't agree with him and find him a bit brash but he reminds me of a thread that was going on about CraigsList gliders a week or so ago....
Like that, I feel it comes down to degrees. While I don't understand his way of thinking, I realize many people feel that way about animals so I try to offer him advice...if he chooses to use it, great, if not, well...that's his choice.
It's kinda like someone who feeds their dog steak on a silver platter at the kitchen table would probably find me cruel to my animals because my dogs eat dog food out of a plastic dish on the floor...and they drink tap water, not Evian out of a crystal goblet.
Again, I don't necessarily agree with Jerrys' outlook but he did make it clear from day one and I think the people who get really upset by his views know to avoid his posts because while he doesn't post often...he is true to form and will no doubt upset someone when he says the things he does. Save yourselves the stress and just avoid his posts if they upset you because he's gonna say what he says, he doesn't back down, doesn't get emotional...just comes at the topic in a philosophical way.... believe me, there have been some whopping threads! LOL!
|
| kyro298
Glider Sprinkles
CO, USA
15262 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:33:01 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysmom
But a vet visit, and yes I know this is going to sound HORRIBLY cruel, but a single vet visit would run me exactly the same, dollarwise, as replacing a dead glider would if it came to that.
This should not be true.... when I ran a fecal to my vet she charged me $20. You may want to check with your vet and double check that...if money is the only issue keeping you from doing fecals.
Oh. Well if THAT'S the case, I don't have an issue with that. I will check into it and let you know. $100 for one glider is a lot, but $100 for all 5... that's doable.
Agreed...I think it's $15 or $20 at mine as well. $45 for an exam.
The problem with not taking one to a vet and letting nature take it's course is that they are confined in cages with each other. In the wild, they'd oust the sick one or dispose of it's body themselves. This isn't always the same dynamic in captivity. If you have a glider, say, with an infection and that infection goes untreated, it will probably eventually kill them in a slow and uncomfortable way. I realize they aren't comparable to humans, but letting anything that can feel pain suffer is a different scenario. (In my opinion, of course) I would hope, at that point, you'd consider at least euthanizing before letting that drag out and possibly let something spread to the others?
I hope you'd consider at least entertaining the idea of an exception in your thought process if the situation called for it.
|
| angelmom
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1971 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 12:44:11 PM |
|
For a new glider owner you've got unbelievably huge dreams.
15 gliders is a lot of animals to take care of. For someone who is concerned about the price to take them to the vet, you don't seem to comprehend the cost is will be to feed, and house 15 gliders.
Breeding gliders without lineage is going to lead to a lot of possible health problems (for all you know they're related).
Your mentality on pets is worrisome and reminds me a lot of the sociopaths that one would study in a "abnormal psychology" class (one of the best classes I've ever taken btw- I highly recommend it).
I understand that "pets are pets" but you've crossed a line from "its a captive animal" to "its an animal". They are different! Captivity strips animals of a lot of their natural abilities, but also tends to increase their life spans. I'm not one to take my dogs to vets outside of spay/neuter and obvious injuries (shots are done at home) but gliders are exotics which demands more preemptive care.
Your throw-away mentality is honestly scary. I pity your animals and your kids, and can only hope that the way you are coming across is not how you are in real life.
|
| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 01:07:21 PM |
|
Okay. So to keep the point of my post pure - I am not going to copy and paste quotes left and right and confuse the matter. I believe we can all go back and reference as needed.
Jerry,
To net it all out - you have a PP glider (with no lineage that could already be potentially inbred), in with two other gliders that you also have no history or lineage on. You are now adding two more gliders to the mix that you also have no history on or even clear fecals to know they are safe to intro. To say that these gliders should NOT be bred is an understatement. To say that a new owner with 7 months under their belt should not try "trio" much less " larger colony" breeding is also an vast understatement. But, this will likely fall on deaf ears with you - because as you have said, you really don't give a damn. You can also just replace them after they die for much cheaper than a wellness exam - your words, not mine.
You don't "mind" if there is inbreeding to a degree of one generation. You don't mind the repercussions of them pulling, rejecting, or cannibalizing joeys because quite frankly you really don't care if they die at all. They are just a commodity to you and I have a very hard time believing that you have the capability to "love" anything. For you to say you give half a rat's ass about your gliders...but you won't even invest $20 in some fecals...is just asinine. You are KNOWINGLY putting your gliders at risk based on your lack of education and your warped sense of a glider's purpose. Let me ask you something here - that $20 you could have spent on fecals or whatever...why did you instead choose to spend it on MORE gliders? Actually, never mind on that. Let's move on.
I want to be clear with you - this is NOT a PETA-like mentality talking here....this is a person that looks beyond the pale and sees a LIFE in my hands with my gliders, one that I am responsible for, one that I COMMITTED to responsibly care for within my capabilities and sometimes outside of those capabilities. They are a part of my family. They are NOT here solely for the purpose of my entertainment and they are certainly not "SOLELY on this earth for your pleasure or for the pleasure of those you deem it appropriate for". Their lives would have existed without your ownership Jerry and frankly - your statement sounds narcissistic and God-complexed.
Perhaps the law says they are property but you as a pet owner should love them as a companion and NOT own them as a commodity as you clearly stated you do. They should NOT be expendable due to your lack of responsibility or finances either. If you don't have the $20 or whatever for preventative care then you are NOT fit to be a glider owner. You are welcoming a VERY bad situation into your glider's lives and won't even take the steps to care for them and ensure their health is in good standing because "it's cheaper to replace them". You don't see anything wrong with this? Perhaps, you can't because you are incapable?
Do I think you are evil for that philosophy? Nah, but I do think you have a deep seated inability to love and possess empathy for other living creatures. I also find you to be a completely IRRESPONSIBLE and particularly heartless pet owner. There are still basics that a pet owner should provide to hedge on the positive side of abuse, neglect, and unethical treatment and you are clearly NOT willing to be "that" responsible because it didn't weigh out on your "costs vs. rewards" analysis. Going back to your God-Complex...it almost seems as if you are setting this up as a project and have assumed certain risks...for what? Your pleasure? To see how it plays out? To see if you are right and we are wrong? To play God and allow them to just live it out for your "viewing pleasure"? To build a larger group of gliders that you can continue to make bad decisions for? Why not just avoid the risks in the first place? Why allow a life to be destroyed based on your convenience, lack of funds, responsibility, and motivations?
Jerry - you really need to look into yourself and your responses and ask yourself 1) why are you OK with losses? 2) should you really own gliders? and 3) break your own doctor rule and have yourself evaluated because seriously....Personality Disorder (probably of the antisocial variety) is written ALL over your internet persona.
I pity your gliders and you as a person that lacks humanity. It must be a cold, dark, and lonely place once you get past the giant ego you possess.
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 01:20:44 PM |
|
*sigh*
Once again, a request for advice devolves into a rant on morality and ethics of pet ownership. I honestly don't know why I bother asking questions on here anymore, there's nothing for me but venom and hatred. Perhaps having to absorb all of that and let it roll off my back is the reason WHY I can detach myself so well. :P But for the moment, congratulations - you've all hurt me to the point where I need to step away for awhile. Particularly DoubleBogey, who asked me for a full understanding of my situation "so he could help" and then posted a diatribe without a SINGLE word of actual relevant advice in it. Good job, sir.
I guess I'm on my own. So now my gliders get the same treatment they would have gotten from me anyway, but without any advice or counsel that might have helped. Lucky them. Pat yourselves on the back for that.
Jazz... I'll try to PM you in a few weeks with how it goes.
|
| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 01:21:35 PM |
|
Okay Jazz and Zoey - good point. Here is my constructive advice for Jerry rather than getting riled up.
Jerry:
1) neuter your male.
2) rehome your glider to someone that will take them to the vet if they need care.
If you won't go with option 1 or option 2 - I would strongly suggest you read up on the minimal medical care necessary for a glider to ensure they are healthy. It's not that expensive and it does potentially prevent future issues. Consider a hobby that can net some disposable cash that you don't "see" as "yours" perhaps... more for the gliders and use those funds for emergency visits or just vet visits. Get a Care Credit card to pay for the glider's emergency bills to save them if it happens. Look, worst case, you can stiff Care Credit and still save a life. I am sure that credit is not that important to you either if "life" isn't.
So, there is a free way to treat your gliders in an emergency or even for preventative care. That should solve your cost problem and really...it's just a small ding on your 7 year report anyway. And credit's really not "life or death".
Bada Bing! Problem solved!
|
| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 01:31:16 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
*sigh*
Particularly DoubleBogey, who asked me for a full understanding of my situation "so he could help" and then posted a diatribe without a SINGLE word of actual relevant advice in it. Good job, sir.
I guess I'm on my own. So now my gliders get the same treatment they would have gotten from me anyway, but without any advice or counsel that might have helped. Lucky them. Pat yourselves on the back for that.
First, I did want to help. But your responses were absolute and you know that. You have already decided your position, one that I cannot agree with. So, I stated such. I wanted to help but you shut me off in your responses of "nope, not gonna happen". Second, it is absolutely UNFAIR to now say that your gliders are going to continue to receive bad care because of a post that said you were wrong. Maybe you do realize it's "bad" - you just said "Lucky them" about their care when you tried to put that accountability on us. The onus of their care is solely on you and you know that as well. Several people have given you good advice, only to be shut down with your responses. This does not portray someone that is willing to change.
Did you really want help? Because I can promise you this - if you sounded even remotely open minded to changing the way you were going to do things...I would stopped everything I was doing and would have written you a constructive post to "educate" and "assist" in every way I could.
Have I misread your willingness to change the way that you are working with your gliders? Jerry - if you tell me that you have even 5% of the open mindedness that I am HOPING you do - I will literally PM you my number right now and we will talk through every bit of this and hopefully I can help you understand while being respectful of your position. I am ALWAYS willing to help, but you HAVE to be willing to learn. You cut off everyone's advice and stand pretty firm in your convictions. Am I wrong? Did I misread? Again, you tell me that you are willing, I will literally wash my brain of this memory and I will 100% engage as your personal and positive "go to" to help you through WHATEVER you need with your gliders. Trust that.
Edited by - DoubleBogey on Jun 14 2012 01:41:44 PM
|
| fazioli
Face Hugger
906 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 01:38:24 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
*sigh*
Particularly DoubleBogey, who asked me for a full understanding of my situation "so he could help" and then posted a diatribe without a SINGLE word of actual relevant advice in it. Good job, sir.
I guess I'm on my own. So now my gliders get the same treatment they would have gotten from me anyway, but without any advice or counsel that might have helped. Lucky them. Pat yourselves on the back for that.
First, I did want to help. But your responses were absolute and you know that. You have already decided your position, one that I cannot agree with. So, I stated such. I wanted to help but you shut me off in your responses of "nope, not gonna happen". Second, it is absolutely UNFAIR to now say that your gliders are going to continue to receive bad care because of a post that said you were wrong. The onus of their care is solely on you and you know that as well. Several people have given you good advice, only to be shut down with your responses. This does not portray someone that is willing to change.
Did you really want help? Because I can promise you this - if you sounded even remotely open minded to changing the way you were going to do things...I would stopped everything I was doing and would have written you a constructive post to "educate" and "assist" in every way I could.
Have I misread your willingness to change the way that you are working with your gliders? Jerry - if you tell me that you have even 5% of the open mindedness that I am HOPING you do - I will literally PM you my number right now and we will talk through every bit of this and hopefully I can help you understand while being respectful of your position. I am ALWAYS willing to help, but you HAVE to be willing to learn. You cut off everyone's advice and stand pretty firm in your convictions. Am I wrong? Did I misread? Again, you tell me that you are willing, I will literally wash my brain of this memory and I will 100% engage as your personal and positive "go to" to help you through WHATEVER you need with your gliders. Trust that.
Agreed DB. I also want to point out that in any of Jerry's other posts, he comes on asking for advice, but shoots down any advice that requires him to make some sort of an effort. Jerry, why do you even bother requesting advice when you already have your mind made up of how you are going to do things?
We are here to help the ones that would like help on how to properly care for their gliders. Their willingness to learn and change things if need be to ensure the proper care of an exotic animal.
|
| Jerrycnh
Glider
119 Posts
| Jun 14 2012 : 01:45:20 PM |
|
I asked for techniques and methods to integrate two colonies of sugar gliders together. I have listened to and acknowledged the advice I have gotten so far ON THAT TOPIC - wet method, spray bottle, neutral area one-on-one. Took it all to heart.
I did NOT ask for neutering, breeding, dietary, veterinary, health, feeding, or quality of life advice of any kind.
If anyone has any other ///techniques and methods to integrate two colonies of sugar gliders together///, I'll gladly listen.
Keep your other thoughts to yourself, and I'll do the same.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
 |
New Message |
 |
|
. |
|
Home
Glider Gossip
Gliderpedia
Journals
Resources
Fun Stuff
Integration Woes...
