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Candy Cuddle Bear   FL, USA 8110 Posts OK, Although I feel like I am "feeding the troll" I will offer some experience with adding gliders to an existing colony. First - it is not only males that may exhibit dominance. I currently have 3 colonies and each one has a very dominant female. I have 14 gliders that are quite happy living in groups of 4 or 5 so they will stay as they are. I had a colony of 5 that I wanted to introduce another female into. This female had totally rejected a colony of 3 that I had initially wanted her to join. She would run around crabbing (almost screaming) anytime I put her with the trio even in the tent, which although not "neutral" territory was a common area that all of my gliders from the 2 colonies I had at the time had been in several times. After months of this I gave up and started over with the other colony. after pouch and toy swapping I decided to do introductions one to one. The new glider was introduced to the meekest, mildest female from the colony. That went well and the two of them spent a few nights together in the small cage. Then I chose then next calmest glider, and added her to the twosome. After a little crabbing, the three got along well enough to leave them together for a few days in the small cage. Next step I introduced the youngest male to make a new group of four. At that point, I moved the new group into the larger cage and put the two oldest, most dominant gliders in the small cage. Again, I left them for a few days in the swapped cages before adding the other male (both males were neutered) to the group in the large cage. I now had 5 of the group living happily together. I saved the dominant female for last. After chilling in the small cage for a few nights I brought her back into the group. She chased them all around the cage for a bit then settled down to hog the dinner plate because I gave them mixed vegetables that night and Sassy ALWAYS wants to eat her fill of the corn before she allows anyone else near the plate. It worked, she was distracted by the corn, I added an extra feeding station that night so everyone was happy and they all settled in as a colony of 6. Now, I do have to make a comment or two about some of your statements above Jerry. quote:
People here have warned me about the dangers of inbreeding, so my intention is to keep any girl offspring and give away any males, two at a time, to friends who want to take up the hobby (and there's a wicked long line for that, as I'm sure you'd expect), thus ensuring that any inbreeding is limited to one generation, tops.
Unfortunately, this plan will not stop the inbreeding as your male, who under this plan will be the father of ALL FEMALE JOEYS can and will attempt to breed with all of his daughters as soon as they begin to come into heat whether or not they are mature enough to breed. To prevent inbreeding your male would need to be neutered before any of his female joeys are about 4 months old. A colony of 15 may or may not work. There may still be some pretty nasty fights between dominant females - injuries which most of us would feel required vet care rather than allowing a glider to suffer from an injury, infection etc. Good luck with that. Clearly you are determined to avoid even the minimum of a well check up for your gliders. Keep in mind that if one glider has giardia, roundworms or other parasites they can and will share them with all of the other gliders. In turn, any feces that gets to the floor -- I am sure your gliders keep the space around their cage spotless and totally sanitary, right -- this can allow the spread of these parasites to any other pets in your home, to you, or even to your children. A little diarrhea in a glider cage, not a big deal to clean up. A few sick, dehydrated gliders dying, I understand that will not cause you to loose sleep. I do think a dog, cat, child or yourself suffering from bloody diarrhea, cramps, nausea, vomiting and all the fun symptoms that can go along with a parasite infestation might prove to be a bit more of a cleanup nightmare. I hope it does not happen but it could. That would be your responsibility 100% Best of luck with your plan. Just keep in mind, you are dealing with a group of folks that consider our gliders, dogs, cats and birds all a part of our families and most of us have some what higher care standards for our pets than you so when you come here for support, well many of us have trouble with that. Jerrycnh Glider  119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Candy
OK, Although I feel like I am "feeding the troll" I will offer some experience with adding gliders to an existing colony.
First - it is not only males that may exhibit dominance. I currently have 3 colonies and each one has a very dominant female. I have 14 gliders that are quite happy living in groups of 4 or 5 so they will stay as they are.
I had a colony of 5 that I wanted to introduce another female into. This female had totally rejected a colony of 3 that I had initially wanted her to join. She would run around crabbing (almost screaming) anytime I put her with the trio even in the tent, which although not "neutral" territory was a common area that all of my gliders from the 2 colonies I had at the time had been in several times. After months of this I gave up and started over with the other colony.
after pouch and toy swapping I decided to do introductions one to one. The new glider was introduced to the meekest, mildest female from the colony. That went well and the two of them spent a few nights together in the small cage. Then I chose then next calmest glider, and added her to the twosome. After a little crabbing, the three got along well enough to leave them together for a few days in the small cage. Next step I introduced the youngest male to make a new group of four. At that point, I moved the new group into the larger cage and put the two oldest, most dominant gliders in the small cage. Again, I left them for a few days in the swapped cages before adding the other male (both males were neutered) to the group in the large cage. I now had 5 of the group living happily together. I saved the dominant female for last. After chilling in the small cage for a few nights I brought her back into the group. She chased them all around the cage for a bit then settled down to hog the dinner plate because I gave them mixed vegetables that night and Sassy ALWAYS wants to eat her fill of the corn before she allows anyone else near the plate. It worked, she was distracted by the corn, I added an extra feeding station that night so everyone was happy and they all settled in as a colony of 6.
Thank you. That description of your experience was very helpful. I have questions/comments about it: 1) I have a pretty good understanding of both hierarchies right now, so I know definitely who's who in the pecking order. Given that it's 3-2 instead of 5-1, the plan of adding 1 glider at a time would involve multiple instances of two different colonies. For me, the first obvious pair would be the bottom pegs from each colony, Serenity and The Brain. But the next step is harder to figure - no matter which colony I take the next one from, it's going to create an imbalance that would seemingly make it harder for the last two. Which would you go with, the last "new" glider or the middle child from the original colony? 2) I love the idea of a food distraction - for my group, it would be cantaloupes, that's their favorite. :) 3) Was there any concern about the gliders who were "alone" for any period in this plan? Is it okay for them to be alone for 3/4 days during the transition? Should I give that glider more playtime with me to compensate? quote:
Originally posted by Candy
Now, I do have to make a comment or two about some of your statements above Jerry.
quote:
People here have warned me about the dangers of inbreeding, so my intention is to keep any girl offspring and give away any males, two at a time, to friends who want to take up the hobby (and there's a wicked long line for that, as I'm sure you'd expect), thus ensuring that any inbreeding is limited to one generation, tops.
Unfortunately, this plan will not stop the inbreeding as your male, who under this plan will be the father of ALL FEMALE JOEYS can and will attempt to breed with all of his daughters as soon as they begin to come into heat whether or not they are mature enough to breed. To prevent inbreeding your male would need to be neutered before any of his female joeys are about 4 months old.
I get that. That's why I said it would "limit the inbreeding to one generation". Long term, that may be a problem once I hit my maximum number, as I wouldn't want the one-generation-inbred females to go to new homes without their owners being aware of it, that would be unethical, but it does get awfully hard, I imagine, to determine which female actually mothered a given joey if you're not present for their first OOP. I imagine when the time comes I'll have to ask about it on here. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
A colony of 15 may or may not work. There may still be some pretty nasty fights between dominant females - injuries which most of us would feel required vet care rather than allowing a glider to suffer from an injury, infection etc. Good luck with that.
Perhaps it's too ambitious, I chose 15 mostly because what I've read on the subject says that's the typical size of a "wild" colony. Of course, they don't all have to live in the same cage - I'm more than happy getting 3 aviary cages and having 5 each, so they can have their space, I'd just want to be able to have them all out at the same time to play (and, in my pipe dreams, be able to put them back in the three cages at random rather than have to say, "Okay, this one goes in /that/ home..."). Those are problems for another day and, again, when the time comes, I will solicit advice before proceeding. I may not heed what I get, but I /will/ listen. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
Clearly you are determined to avoid even the minimum of a well check up for your gliders.
Mostly. That cheap fecal option sounds good, before today I had no idea it was a possibility. Calling my chosen vet this weekend is on my to-do list. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
Keep in mind that if one glider has giardia, roundworms or other parasites they can and will share them with all of the other gliders. In turn, any feces that gets to the floor -- I am sure your gliders keep the space around their cage spotless and totally sanitary, right -- this can allow the spread of these parasites to any other pets in your home, to you, or even to your children.
Duly noted. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
A little diarrhea in a glider cage, not a big deal to clean up. A few sick, dehydrated gliders dying, I understand that will not cause you to loose sleep. I do think a dog, cat, child or yourself suffering from bloody diarrhea, cramps, nausea, vomiting and all the fun symptoms that can go along with a parasite infestation might prove to be a bit more of a cleanup nightmare.
Also true. Thankfully the further up the food chain you get, the greater the ability for the infected to actually /express/ the need for treatment in some way. With gliders, the only thing I know is to look for droopy ears, and apparently gliders hide sickness naturally so you can't even rely on getting /that/ signal all the time. Diarrhea's a pretty good clue, though, if I saw that for more than two days in a row that might be sufficient warning for me to get a vet involved. Especially if I knew for sure which one it was coming from. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
I hope it does not happen but it could. That would be your responsibility 100%
Agreed. I promise, if/when it comes, I won't be one of those people who cries on here about it and says "if only I'd listened". I'm not that much of a hypocrite. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
Best of luck with your plan. Just keep in mind, you are dealing with a group of folks that consider our gliders, dogs, cats and birds all a part of our families and most of us have some what higher care standards for our pets than you so when you come here for support, well many of us have trouble with that.
I get that, which is why I no longer ask certain things which I know are likely to set off the powderkeg. (I don't even TRY to ask dietary questions anymore, for example - I just fake it and hope for the best. None of my greys have changed color so I must be doing /something/ right.) It just gets frustrating when I ask "safer" questions and it always segues into a fight that I WASN'T looking for, and then I get called a "troll" because I give back what I get instead of telling people what they want to hear. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
I get that. That's why I said it would "limit the inbreeding to one generation". Long term, that may be a problem once I hit my maximum number, as I wouldn't want the one-generation-inbred females to go to new homes without their owners being aware of it, that would be unethical, but it does get awfully hard, I imagine, to determine which female actually mothered a given joey if you're not present for their first OOP. I imagine when the time comes I'll have to ask about it on here.
I think this is what some of us are trying to express Jerry. It IS unethical to allow an inbred glider to go to a home without the owner knowing but it is MUCH more unethical to inbreed them in the first place. ESPECIALLY, if this is a preventable situation. You don't HAVE to allow your gliders to inbreed. You just don't. That's a choice. Most people that inbreed do so out of 1) stupidity or lack of education 2) lack of regard for gliders and their health 3) monetary gain or greed or 4) personal ambition/motivation/convenience. I guess that is where the rubber hits the road for me and I am still so very confused on why you think you need to allow inbreeding to have a larger colony of happy healthy gliders. That just doesn't make sense to me. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
And before I am told that response is off topic - it is very important to the basis and foundation for your intro.
No, it is not. It speaks to whether or not I SHOULD merge the two colonies, which is not what I asked. I already MADE that decision. What I asked was /HOW/, not IF or WHY. quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
I think this is what some of us are trying to express Jerry. It IS unethical to allow an inbred glider to go to a home without the owner knowing but it is MUCH more unethical to inbreed them in the first place. ESPECIALLY, if this is a preventable situation. You don't HAVE to allow your gliders to inbreed. You just don't. That's a choice. Most people that inbreed do so out of 1) stupidity or lack of education 2) lack of regard for gliders and their health 3) monetary gain or greed or 4) personal ambition/motivation/convenience.
I guess that is where the rubber hits the road for me and I am still so very confused on why you think you need to allow inbreeding to have a larger colony of happy healthy gliders. That just doesn't make sense to me.
My reason is #4 - personal convenience. Isolating them from the male is the only way to keep it from happening, and as previously stated, I want gliders that can all interact with each other - in the same cage, if possible. That goal is incompatible with preventing inbreeding entirely, so if I can't prevent it entirely, and I'm not willing to sacrifice the goal, then the logical thing to do is minimize it - hence the policy of giving away all future males. (I considered giving away all future females and keeping the males, every male joey I kept would have a 3 in 4 chance of choosing to mate with a glider who wasn't related, well, 2 in 4 in the case of my cinnamons, but in that scenario an inbred grandkid could wind up /also/ mating with grandma, which would cause 2 layers of inbreeding... so while inbreeding would be less likely, the potential damage would be greater, as my understanding is that inbreeding is a lot like a copy machine - the more times you make a copy of a copy, the worse the damage when compared to the original.) That policy hurts no one but potentially me and my gliders, and on that basis comforms to ethics as I understand them. Giving an inbred glider to someone else without telling them, however, would be deceptive and lead them unknowingly into a dangerous situation - which is why THAT, to me, is unethical. unknownxcelebrity Super Glider FL, USA 259 Posts Okay, Jerry, just a warning, this is not about intros, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. In the long run it would be cheaper to just have your male neutered (Not pushing the issue, just explaining something). I know you don't want to take them to a vet, but lets say you have the male neutered, it costs around $50-$200 depending on where you get it done, you'll save that in food in less than a year compared to having fifteen gliders. Also, you could keep just one cage instead of three (which is more time and money to clean). In the wild sugar gliders do stay in colonies consisting of 10-15 members, but they have the entire planet to live on, no cages and confinement, five gliders is a large colony and your gliders (if they are all introduced) will have PLENTY of company. Breeding very rarely makes anyone any money, ask any breeder, the money you spend in food alone would be more than you'd make selling joeys. Just an idea. BustersDad Starting Member 2 Posts Jerrycnh - My family runs a rescue for sugar gliders and although I really want to help and give you intro methods that I have had work, I wonder if you would listen anyway. The other issue is I really can't in good conscience assist you in making a mess of the lives of your gliders. Reading your posts help me develop a better adoption questionnaire to avoid any of our animals ending up with a home that would be like the one you say you are putting your gliders in. I really agree with DB on this. Neuter or find them good homes. Wild animals have the ability to run away to a new area, yours are stuck in cages. Poor husbandry setting and surely very unethical and surely not moral. PrimoWorks Joey  USA 47 Posts quote:
Like I said, it's a last resort. For the next few weeks I intend to keep doing what I've been doing - swapping sleeping pouches and other items to get them acclimated to each others' scent. One thing that worked great when I was integrating Ren was switching cages entirely, which I intend to do to these guys at some point
I'm actually in the process of integrating a single male to a 3-colony (2 males,1 female) in sorta the same cage-switching way. The original male was our first, then we got a another male from the same breeder. They got along great. A few weeks later, I rescued a sickly female. After vet checks (poor, crappy diet), I added her and, after Tails (dominant male) established who was boss, they did great. Then came trouble in the shape of a cute little black beauty. This third male was NOT welcome by Tails or Suki (the single female) but, by this point, I had noticed that Peanut was gaining very little weight compared the the other 2. So I divided the ridiculously large cage/aviary we have into 2 and placed the new boy (Bill) on one sie and the trio in the other. The next day, I intorduced Bill and Peanut (the 2 smallest) to each other. Now we have a colony of 2 small males who are very mellow and starting to gain weight, and a pair colony that used to hog food but get along great with each other. They live side by side but separately and both colonies are thriving. Every few days, I switch the colonies to the opposite side and they love that they get to play with "new" toys. I do hope to eventually have all four in a single colony but it all depends on them. Btw, I originally only wanted males. The one female, I just couldn't abandon. We are waiting for two of the boys to be old enough to neuter (one from each colony), since we don't want babies to worry about. If the colonies become integrated, I'll have to rethink Bill's continued masculinity.  Candy Cuddle Bear FL, USA 8110 Posts It might take a 3rd cage to do the intros - one glider from each group first, then add one more glider (which ever you think will be calmest.) If you add the glider that became a loner when her cage mate was moved to the "intro cage" then you are back to 2 cages and you can then add the next calmest glider from the original trio to the group that has one of its former cage mates and the two new girls. leaving a glider alone in a cage for a few days should not present a problem as long as they are near others. I had the cages side by side during the process so all of the gliders could see and smell the others but could not reach them. I think I also did more pouch swapping during the 2 or 3 nights with each evolving grouping so they were constantly mixing smells. The night you get everyone into the same cage I would put in two either brand new or very clean pouches so none of the gliders would have a sleeping spot they could consider "MINE" - they might sleep a night or two in two pouches but will most likely pile in together after a night or two. As for the inbreeding: quote:
but it does get awfully hard, I imagine, to determine which female actually mothered a given joey if you're not present for their first OOP
It does not matter WHICH female is the mother of the female joeys - If you have only one intact male he will be the FATHER of all of them and the inbreeding would occur if you do not either get him fixed or separate ALL OF THE FEMALE JOEYS from him at 4 months OOP. You are also dealing with gliders of unknown lineage, your pocket pets female is likely to be already inbred coming from a mill breeding situation. The other females, and your male could also be inbred or related since you do not know their origins. Even if they are only "distant cousins" there may be recessive genes that might cause deformities or major health issues and any of the joeys might inherit those genes from both parents and have problems. Sometimes these problems could be internal, not something you could see, but it could result in the early death/canabalization of the joeys when their parents instinctively remove the sick joey from the colony. Yes it would be unethical to give someone an inbred joey - but you may be setting YOURSELF up for dealing with inbreeding health issues with your first joey births, not just the next generation. Sorry if my remark about feeding the troll struck a nerve with you. My definition of a troll is someone that comes to the forum and asks questions they KNOW will bring out strong opinions and controversy or someone that makes statements they KNOW will raise the emotions of many members of the forum while at the same time REJECTING the advice the troll KNOWS WILL BE GIVEN. I believe you to be an intelligent person who KNEW your plan to create a breeding colony with gliders of unknown origin would rile up the folks here. I am also sure you KNEW your stand on not providing vet care would also hit a big nerve here. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by unknownxcelebrity
Okay, Jerry, just a warning, this is not about intros, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
In the long run it would be cheaper to just have your male neutered (Not pushing the issue, just explaining something). I know you don't want to take them to a vet, but lets say you have the male neutered, it costs around $50-$200 depending on where you get it done, you'll save that in food in less than a year compared to having fifteen gliders. Also, you could keep just one cage instead of three (which is more time and money to clean). In the wild sugar gliders do stay in colonies consisting of 10-15 members, but they have the entire planet to live on, no cages and confinement, five gliders is a large colony and your gliders (if they are all introduced) will have PLENTY of company.
Breeding very rarely makes anyone any money, ask any breeder, the money you spend in food alone would be more than you'd make selling joeys.
Just an idea.
I'm not interested in making money on them. I suppose I could neuter my male and just buy ten more, but that's a lot of intros and, honestly, I would like the experience of raising a joey "from the beginning", infant gliders are adorable and I've only seen one in person once. As previously stated, I have a LOT of friends interested in the hobby (many of whom, I freely admit, agree more with your standards of glider care than mine - whenever I educate them about anything, I am cautious to provide both the dominant forum point of view AND my own on any given matter, so that they have the information on both standards. I also provide them with the Pocket Pets Propaganda point of view, mostly to let them know it exists - admittedly, it also helps my own views appear the most "balanced", when compared with their extreme on one end and this forum's on the other). Breeding my gliders also allows me to be generous in helping them get started, they can focus on the best cage and toys since they'll get the gliders themselves from me for free, and of course neutering if they so choose. And yes, as unrealistic as it probably is, I have dreams of "glider play dates" that might be made possible by the gliders having the same scent marker as their parents and thus also feel free to interact. :) I realize that's unlikely, though, I'm sure gliders seperated from their parents eventually change to the point where they don't "recognize" each other anymore. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by BustersDad
Jerrycnh - My family runs a rescue for sugar gliders and although I really want to help and give you intro methods that I have had work, I wonder if you would listen anyway. The other issue is I really can't in good conscience assist you in making a mess of the lives of your gliders.
Listen, yes. Follow your recommendations? Maybe, maybe not, depends on whether they make sense, in my opinion, to my situation. And if your conscience is bothering you, that's fine, but remember - I'm doing this one way or the other. You can help it go well or you can stand aside, but you're not "helping me make a mess" by trying to help me succeed. At best, you're making a (from your perspective) horrible situation just a little bit less horrible. I'd think someone who was involved in a rescue would be all over that.
quote:
Originally posted by BustersDad
Reading your posts help me develop a better adoption questionnaire to avoid any of our animals ending up with a home that would be like the one you say you are putting your gliders in.
Oh, I'm sure I could fool you if that was my intent. ;) There's not a questionnaire in existence that a smart man can't find his way around. If I wanted a new glider from a rescue, I've learned enough here to know all the "right" things to say to make sure I get it. The only people you're going to wind up denying with your little questionnaire are people who probably would actually heed your advice. Irony at it's best. quote:
Originally posted by BustersDad
I really agree with DB on this. Neuter or find them good homes. Wild animals have the ability to run away to a new area, yours are stuck in cages. Poor husbandry setting and surely very unethical and surely not moral.
[/quote]
It must /kill/ you that you have no legal ability to take them away from me.
I think I'll take a moment to feel smug about that. BustersDad Starting Member 2 Posts Jerry - well did it work? Did you enjoy your smug moment? I am beginning to think your purpose was to get everyone commenting and frustrated. BTW it doesn't kill me that I have no legal ability to take them away from you. I spent time in emergency services trust me when I say I have dealt with all kinds. The best advice I have for you is don't introduce them until your male is neutered. Less testosterone will help the introductions a bit. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by BustersDad
Jerry - well did it work? Did you enjoy your smug moment?
I am beginning to think your purpose was to get everyone commenting and frustrated.
Like I said, I wasn't looking for a fight. Sometimes I can start enjoying it, though. If life gives you lemons, right? quote:
Originally posted by BustersDad
The best advice I have for you is don't introduce them until your male is neutered. Less testosterone will help the introductions a bit.
Yup. I can see why you wrestled with your conscience before sharing /that/ nugget of wisdom. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Candy
I think I also did more pouch swapping during the 2 or 3 nights with each evolving grouping so they were constantly mixing smells. The night you get everyone into the same cage I would put in two either brand new or very clean pouches so none of the gliders would have a sleeping spot they could consider "MINE" - they might sleep a night or two in two pouches but will most likely pile in together after a night or two.
See, little gems like this are why I go through the pain of asking things here. This is VERY useful advice that I would not have thought about on my own, THANK you. I will follow this suggestion when I get there. quote:
Originally posted by Candy
Sorry if my remark about feeding the troll struck a nerve with you. My definition of a troll is someone that comes to the forum and asks questions they KNOW will bring out strong opinions and controversy or someone that makes statements they KNOW will raise the emotions of many members of the forum while at the same time REJECTING the advice the troll KNOWS WILL BE GIVEN. I believe you to be an intelligent person who KNEW your plan to create a breeding colony with gliders of unknown origin would rile up the folks here. I am also sure you KNEW your stand on not providing vet care would also hit a big nerve here.
Ahhh. I suppose I'd fit that definition, then. I honestly didn't expect the conversation to even steer towards vet care but I did know I'd hear /somebody/ say that even having an unneutered male in the mix was irresponsible in some way. My own definition of a troll is someone who has these conversations FOR THE PURPOSE of riling people up, without any actual need for information - which is NOT my intent. I'd be thrilled if every topic I posted here went like my bonding pouch thread has gone, a pure sharing of information and insights without all the crap. I don't WANT to rile people up, I'd prefer not to. But I'm not going to withhold controversial parts of my situation if asked, to do that would be to risk people giving me advice based on assumptions that aren't true. The best advice comes from people with a full understanding of what's going on. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
[quote]
No, it is not. It speaks to whether or not I SHOULD merge the two colonies, which is not what I asked. I already MADE that decision. What I asked was /HOW/, not IF or WHY.
[quote]
My reason is #4 - personal convenience. Isolating them from the male is the only way to keep it from happening, and as previously stated, I want gliders that can all interact with each other - in the same cage, if possible. That goal is incompatible with preventing inbreeding entirely, so if I can't prevent it entirely, and I'm not willing to sacrifice the goal, then the logical thing to do is minimize it - hence the policy of giving away all future males.
That policy hurts no one but potentially me and my gliders, and on that basis comforms to ethics as I understand them. Giving an inbred glider to someone else without telling them, however, would be deceptive and lead them unknowingly into a dangerous situation - which is why THAT, to me, is unethical.
Believe it or not, all of those dynamics (i.e. intact male, inbreeding, females, etc) ALL play into the SUCCESS of your intro. Your choice if you want to see that truth. Inbreeding is worth it because you are NOT willing to sacrifice the goal? The goal to what...have many gliders in the same cage without having to "buy" them? Do you not see how self serving this is? You are putting them at risk...for your own PERSONAL convenience and desires. Quite frankly, you could get another male and breed without the inbreeding in two separate cages and achieve the same goal. I don't advise it - but have you thought about this? Intros are not fun - but they are certainly something you can do. If you would put some money into the neutering of joeys - you could have 3 cages and group all the joeys together and make a big ol' colony of joeys then just rehome your adults when they are done breeding for you. Is that unethical? You might even get a rehoming fee. And you would avoid inbreeding entirely. I don't think it's ethical at all but I do think that it gives a way out of inbreeding and removes "that" risk for your gliders. As for your "policy" - "policies" are put in place to PROTECT those involved. You are happy to protect the future owners from a "dangerous situation" by simply "telling" them they are adopting an inbred glider? However, you are COMPLETELY willing to put your gliders in a position of risk without more than a calculation of odds? Again, the "dangerous situation" is to create them in the first place. You are putting the GLIDERS in a "dangerous situation". How is that NOT unethical? I truly want to understand why that is not the focus of your position on ethics in that equation. If you didn't inbreed them, you would have to contingently deal with that new owner conversation. Do you believe that you are really saving that new owner any heartache...if their glider is inbred and suffers repercussions of such? No. They are still going to "feel" it. Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Believe it or not, all of those dynamics (i.e. intact male, inbreeding, females, etc) ALL play into the SUCCESS of your intro. Your choice if you want to see that truth.
I can't see that truth, because it doesn't make any logical sense. Inbreeding can't be an issue at this point - there isn't even a FIRST set of joeys in the picture, much less any possibility of an inbred one. How can the chance that I may someday, at LEAST 5+ months in the future, allow a glider who doesn't exist yet to have sex with a relative have any bearing on the success of introducing 5 unrelated gliders in the here and now? Are my gliders precognitive? Is one of them going, "Oh crap, better not accept these females, I might have sex with our children someday?" Effect cannot precede cause, not without time travel involved. And if my gliders can time travel, then I'm going to be making a lot of money that has nothing to do with joeys. :) quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Inbreeding is worth it because you are NOT willing to sacrifice the goal? The goal to what...have many gliders in the same cage without having to "buy" them? Do you not see how self serving this is? You are putting them at risk...for your own PERSONAL convenience and desires.
I don't recall ever denying that it was self-serving. Of COURSE it is. Being a pet owner in the FIRST place is self-serving - we take them in to make US happy, not because we're on some altruistic good will mission to make the world better for them. The only reason I ever care about whether my gliders are happy or not is because seeing them happy makes ME happy. If seeing them miserable made me happy, then I'd be going out of my way to make them miserable. (Granted, I'd be a little more understanding of all the objections if I had that type of personality, and I'm quite glad that I don't. I DO want happiness for my gliders. But I'll tell you, if there was some sadist out there who took in animals to satisfy his need to torture things, and his torturing animals kept him from torturing human beings, I would support that COMPLETELY. Better an animal than a human being. And using animals as test subjects in painful experiments? No brainer. To quote a famous comedian, "If hooking a monkey up to a car battery helps us find a cure for cancer someday, all I have to say is that the red is positive and the black is negative.") quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
Quite frankly, you could get another male and breed without the inbreeding in two separate cages and achieve the same goal. I don't advise it - but have you thought about this? Intros are not fun - but they are certainly something you can do. If you would put some money into the neutering of joeys - you could have 3 cages and group all the joeys together and make a big ol' colony of joeys then just rehome your adults when they are done breeding for you. Is that unethical? You might even get a rehoming fee. And you would avoid inbreeding entirely.
I'm... not sure I understand the logistics of your suggestion. Get another male... okay, so now there's 6, 3 and 3... let them all breed until there's 15 kids, neuter the male kids, throw all the kids together and then get rid of the original 6? Hmmm... I suppose that's possible. A little heartless to the 6, I'm sure from your perspective anyone willing to create inbred joeys must be willing to cast 6 aside, but believe it or not it doesn't /quite/ work that way, I don't think I could just discard gliders once they become mine, I couldn't even imagine giving up the cinnamons after 2 weeks, much less ditching them all after that many years. Even supposing I'd be willing to do that, I'd (A) have no way of replacing gliders as they die, and (B) no way to give any gliders away to new prospective parents. Add the fact that I'd likely keep the original 6 and you add that I'd (C) still wind up with gliders who can't all come out at the same time. quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
As for your "policy" - "policies" are put in place to PROTECT those involved.
No, a policy is just a guideline for how to do something. It is, for example, "policy" for all American males between 18 and 26 to register for the Selective Service to be drafted. That policy, I assure you, is not in place to protect said males. :) It's in place to put them in harms way, if needed, for the convenience of the REST of the country. Policy is more about risk management than risk prevention. quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
You are happy to protect the future owners from a "dangerous situation" by simply "telling" them they are adopting an inbred glider?
Yes. The "dangerous situations" that I am protecting them from include any situation that not knowing could cause - such as, for example, their own decision to breed said glider without knowing it's lineage. quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
However, you are COMPLETELY willing to put your gliders in a position of risk without more than a calculation of odds? Again, the "dangerous situation" is to create them in the first place. You are putting the GLIDERS in a "dangerous situation". How is that NOT unethical?
Inbreeding is not a dangerous situation to the parent gliders. Their own health and genetic codes are completely unaffected by their mating choices. The only glider in "danger" is the unborn one, and I feel no moral or ethical responsibility to an entity that does not currently exist. In fact, if you accept the precept that nonexistence is arguably "worse" than any kind of existence is (and unless you think it's okay to put down humans with birth defects for their own good, you assuredly do subscribe to that precept), then allowing the inbred glider to have any life at all, even a "lower quality" of life than it's regular counterparts, is actually a greater good than preventing it's existence. Not good for the glider species as a whole, perhaps, but gliders are hardly an endangered species, and there's plenty of pure genetic stock running around to keep them going for quite some time. And since I don't intend to let any inbred glider procreate at all, the impact should, theoretically, be contained to my own colony. quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
I truly want to understand why that is not the focus of your position on ethics in that equation. If you didn't inbreed them, you would have to contingently deal with that new owner conversation. Do you believe that you are really saving that new owner any heartache...if their glider is inbred and suffers repercussions of such? No. They are still going to "feel" it.
"Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something." Owning a glider comes with pain. It's also one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever encountered. The parent who chooses to accept an inbred glider will likely feel the same pain as the parent who chooses to adopt a baby with Downs Syndrome - it takes a special kind of person, to go into that situation knowing what pains lie down the road. Doesn't make the good moments any less good, though, and in the end, they're the ones to decide if it's worth it. Mind you, this is all theory. Perhaps I'll feel differently when I actually /see/ an inbred glider. Though so many of you are so quick to point out that my PP glider may be inbred herself, and I've already shared 7 months of love and affection with her without noticing any difference, so if that's the way it works, I'm not going to have any regrets about the choice.
Dear Lisa, Thank you for the great article on pedigrees. If anyone wants to see the results of inbreeding they need look no farther than my little Luna. Luna and her three cage mates were part of a group of 19 sugar gliders that were abandoned in a rental property last year. We kept four of the gliders and adopted out the others in groups of four or more (except for two who were adopted out to be companions of two other gliders). Anyway, little Luna and several of her siblings were born without eyes 
It is our suspicion that the original keepers had purchased a single male and female and then just let them go crazy. Amazingly, although the gliders were in a filthy, tiny cage, no one had MBD (metabolic bone disease aka hind leg paralysis), but several were half blind, completely blind, or, like Luna, basically eyeless. Susan M --------- Dear Susan, First I want to thank you and sharing Luna’s story and picture. A picture says many more words than I can and we can discuss this over and over and a lot of people still miss the point. I think sharing Luna’s picture will have a great impact on better husbandry and she will be known a great teacher to us silly humans. I hear often from people who’ve “accidentally” inbred, often the result of getting gliders that were already impregnated and then questioning after the fact who the father is. This is why it’s important to question your sugar glider supplier about their method of preventing inbreeding. Now granted we have to take part of this on faith, but I also urge people to trust their gut instinct. If you are getting mostly sales pitch and not getting a sincere sense of responsibility to the animals, then simply don’t buy your gliders from that source. You’ve also given me a great opportunity to discuss the flip side of this coin. What I mean by that is too many people need to be able to “see” the effects of inbreeding. Just as easily as inbreeding can affect a visible defect that is obvious in Luna and her relatives, just as easily the results of inbreeding can manifest a not so visible effect. In other words, the problem may not show up on the outside of the glider. There could be organ damage, or a higher risk for disease like cancer, stroke, heart attack or any internal condition affected by defective organs. Just because an animal looks healthy, doesn’t always mean it is healthy. Inbreeding does not support the long term optimal health of these animals. I hope the community embraces Luna’s story and sees her example as just one way inbreeding can be detrimental to health. By the way, I think she is just beautiful and she is blessed to have you as her human, as another person may have just put her down because she can’t see. Animals are way more resilient than we are. They tend to adapt to deformities easier than humans. But this is not a reason or excuse to inbreed. This is simply a statement to Luna’s good fortune to have an accommodating family that cares for her and loves her in spite of her differences. Thank you again for this picture . I’ve never seen such solid evidence of the harms of inbreeding and your story will make a difference. I found this on sugar-gliders.com Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
Dear Lisa...
The problem with this cautionary tale, from my perspective, is in it's details. "It is our suspicion that the original keepers had purchased a single male and female and then just let them go crazy." Making Luna's case probably the result of 5+ layers of inbreeding, not just one. Not to mention that, eyelessness aside, she still seems like a pretty cool, cute glider that I'd happily raise. (Dare I even admit that her blindness and compensating for it sounds like an interesting and rewarding challenge to tackle?) Let me save you some time: To successfully dissuade me from this idea, you'd have to get some vets to tell me that /one/ layer of inbreeding, alone, has a 75%+ chance of causing a glider to deal with health issues that would cause severe or chronic pain. If I was reasonably assured of that as a fact, I would do what was necessary to prevent any inbreeding. Anything less than that is, from my perspective, an acceptable risk. DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts You and I are not going to agree - but you did mention that "Perhaps you will feel different about inbred gliders once you see them..." I want to help you here. Take a look at the data that I have worked hard to pull together for you. Clearly, while we don't agree, I care about your "non-existent" future gliders enough to pull this together. I have given you pictures, videos, a link to discussion and experiences, as well as a medical breakdown of potential issues, and of course my 'unwanted' opinion. Perhaps this will give you a glimpse into the future. http://http://www.sugar-gliders.com/images/luna.jpg
This glider was born with no eyes as a result of the same level of inbreeding you are considering acceptable in your future colony. I realize you blew this off earlier...but I still find it a compelling display of risk. http://http://www.sugarglider.com/images/terrys/9276150_27.jpeg
Another inbred glider. Most of the issues with inbreeding manifest internally so you might not "see" it outwardly until their untimely demise. Here is a link to a discussion about inbred gliders (as verified through their lineage so there is no question) - there are videos on this thread that will allow you to SEE gliders first hand that have been inbred and the repercussions of having done so. They can't even walk without wobbling. No telling how they actually feel. Since you need a "VET" to tell you that it's a bad idea....why don't you reach out to Valkyriemom and ask her about the vet she referenced in her posts. In the meanwhile, I will see what I can find. http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/953658/Inbred_or_not
An owner also posted her story of 6 gliders that first generation bred. The parents were fine with one living for 15 years and the other for about 10 years... but the babies (4 of them) died of organ failure (2) and heart failure (2). The offspring passed away in roughly 3-4 years. Horrible deaths. Same environment, same food, same care. So, they got 1/4 of the life span. Unfair, really. Other stories that you can read site small or missing ears, missing sexual organs, melanoma, cancers, heart defects, liver shunts, kidneys that malfunction, tumors, missing parts/organs, non/under functioning organs, neurological defects, tremors, mental retardation, Your "better to have lived and suffered than to have not lived at all mentality" is interesting because you are negating your accountability and replacing it with a "I am giving LIFE!!" mentality. I'm sorry but "You're doing it WRONG!" or will be. Again, you can AVOID the needless suffering for those gliders. You mentioned parents that have Down Syndrome babies? You name ONE set of parents that purposefully set out to CREATE Down Syndrome babies. No, they don't just "put them down" because they have special needs but people certainly do NOT elect for it. IF they did - there wouldn't be so many babies aborted because of a down symdrome positive amnio or ultrasound. There wouldn't be so many "special needs" children in orphanages, right? No one WANTS to create special needs because it causes undue suffering. It is cruel and humane to strive for this...or to even just "allow" it to happen when it's preventable. Omis n Kais g-ma Pouch Protector TX, USA 7524 Posts Jerry, 
the problem with reason #4 is this. unneutered males will fight and stink. You'll need to neuter any and all males to minimize or eliminate this. In saying this, why get rid of the females? Why get rid of anything? I'm just asking questions. Can you not handle neutering your males? And dude, really? You have the gliders for your own personal benefit? That is a pretty sad thing. Do you have children? God I hope not. Will you take them to the Dr. if they get sick? If so why? As I see it, sugar gliders are on this Earth on loan to us from Heaven. Nothing belongs to you. This is all MPO. 
There are those that can help you with intros but with your attitude, I doubt they'll want to step up to help you. quote:
Originally posted by Jerrycnh
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
And before I am told that response is off topic - it is very important to the basis and foundation for your intro.
No, it is not. It speaks to whether or not I SHOULD merge the two colonies, which is not what I asked. I already MADE that decision. What I asked was /HOW/, not IF or WHY.
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
I think this is what some of us are trying to express Jerry. It IS unethical to allow an inbred glider to go to a home without the owner knowing but it is MUCH more unethical to inbreed them in the first place. ESPECIALLY, if this is a preventable situation. You don't HAVE to allow your gliders to inbreed. You just don't. That's a choice. Most people that inbreed do so out of 1) stupidity or lack of education 2) lack of regard for gliders and their health 3) monetary gain or greed or 4) personal ambition/motivation/convenience.
I guess that is where the rubber hits the road for me and I am still so very confused on why you think you need to allow inbreeding to have a larger colony of happy healthy gliders. That just doesn't make sense to me.
My reason is #4 - personal convenience. Isolating them from the male is the only way to keep it from happening, and as previously stated, I want gliders that can all interact with each other - in the same cage, if possible. That goal is incompatible with preventing inbreeding entirely, so if I can't prevent it entirely, and I'm not willing to sacrifice the goal, then the logical thing to do is minimize it - hence the policy of giving away all future males. (I considered giving away all future females and keeping the males, every male joey I kept would have a 3 in 4 chance of choosing to mate with a glider who wasn't related, well, 2 in 4 in the case of my cinnamons, but in that scenario an inbred grandkid could wind up /also/ mating with grandma, which would cause 2 layers of inbreeding... so while inbreeding would be less likely, the potential damage would be greater, as my understanding is that inbreeding is a lot like a copy machine - the more times you make a copy of a copy, the worse the damage when compared to the original.)
That policy hurts no one but potentially me and my gliders, and on that basis comforms to ethics as I understand them. Giving an inbred glider to someone else without telling them, however, would be deceptive and lead them unknowingly into a dangerous situation - which is why THAT, to me, is unethical.
Jerrycnh Glider 119 Posts Well... I suppose there's at least enough evidence here to start thinking about more alternatives. I still think I /might/ be right about this, but I can concede that it's not necessarily a die to roll on purpose. How's this for a plan: Step 1. Integrate the current gliders. Step 2. Ren mates with one or more of the gliders. Step 3. When the first set of new joeys reaches 3 months of age, neuter Ren. Give away all male joeys, keep all female joeys. Step 4. Obtain a new, unrelated, unneutered male joey - perhaps in trade for one of mine? - and integrate it into the colony. Step 5. Continue to ensure that whenever new joeys reach weaning age, the current unneutered male is neutered and replaced with an unrelated, unneutered male until my glider population reaches the desired level. That should prevent even one layer of inbreeding unless, by chance of bad luck, the unneutered male I bring in comes from the same stock as one I give away or one of the originals. The only downside is the big tremendous pain in the ass associated with integrating the new unneutered males... but I suppose I could live with that, if, y'know... some of the tricks I'm learning to put these five together actually work. :) DoubleBogey Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1244 Posts The data is out there Jerry - you don't need me or any vet to show you - but I will give it a whirl anyway. Check out the data below. http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/28668/InTech-Veterinary_dysmorphology.pdf
A culmination of vet's discussing abnormalities in animals and so note that in section 4 - you can see that they link inbreeding as a risk factor and potential cause for these issues as close breeding activates and inactivates alleles that can cause all sorts of issues. "In domestic animals, these numbers must be similar or even higher because inbreeding is common in selective breeding both for companion animals and for farm animals, increasing the coefficient of consanguinity." "4.2 Risk factors The artificial selection in breeding to obtain animals with a new or better appearance or for financial gain often means consanguineous unions, increasing the risk of the recurrence of a given defect in future generations." For anyone wondering - what "consanguineous unions" means? It means INBRED. "The offspring of consanguinous relationships are at greater risk of certain genetic disorders." "The low genetic heterozygosity associated with increased consanguinity in a population (identified by microsatellite markers) increases its susceptibility to infectious pathogens." "Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents. Inbreeding results in increased homozygosity, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits. This generally leads to a decreased fitness of a population, which is called inbreeding depression." "Inbreeding may result in a far higher phenotypic expression of deleterious recessive genes within a population than would normally be expected.[1] As a result, first-generation inbred individuals are more likely to show physical and health defects, including: Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability Increased genetic disorders Fluctuating facial asymmetry Lower birth rate Higher post birth mortality Slower growth rate Smaller adult size Loss of immune system function Natural selection works to remove individuals with the above types of traits from the gene pool. Therefore, many more individuals in the first generation of inbreeding will never live to reproduce. Over time, with isolation such as a population bottleneck caused by purposeful (assortative) breeding or natural environmental factors, the deleterious inherited traits are culled." But here is my nasty bottom line - would YOU want to doink your mama Jerry? I guarantee you would not and your mama would not want to doink you. Know what I'm saying...the same goes for brothers/sisters/cousins/whatever...it's just nasty to doink your own kinfolk! You know what I mean?
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