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  |  tjlong
Glider
 136 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 03:48:43 PM    |
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I talked to Steve at Zoologix this week. Zoologix is the only place we have found to date that has a PCR test that actually detects the strain of trichomonas that sugar gliders have. They create PCR tests that they use. They seem to be on the cutting edge in this field. We got to discussing how they are developed. Steve told me that they have to know the strain of whatever protozoa or pathogen they are trying to make a test for in order to make the test. They use a commercial lab to learn the strains rather than doing it themselves. SO, I asked him if he could take a positive test result from 3 1/2 months ago from my glider and send it to the commercial lab to find out the strain? He said ,'yes'. I should have the results back by the end of next week. I only sent one sample for now as each costs $100. I hope it's another step toward learning more about the trich that has begun to pop up in our glider community.
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 | Rukiya
Glider
USA
121 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 04:03:54 PM  |
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Thank you for putting in the effort and money to find answers that could benefit all of us. Although I don't currently face this issue, I am appreciative of any information that you get.
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| JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
 USA
5349 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 04:32:15 PM |
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That is awesome! Thank you for taking that step and offering to share the results with the community. It is appreciated.
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| Cora1
Face Hugger
TX, USA
763 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 05:47:24 PM  |
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Then wonder if he can test cabs too. It was about that long ago I think. They suredid not know then. And thats the whole reason it was sent off was to find the strain, not confirm he had it, we already knew that.
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 06:01:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Cora1
Then wonder if he can test cabs too. It was about that long ago I think. They suredid not know then. And thats the whole reason it was sent off was to find the strain, not confirm he had it, we already knew that.
Cora, the test at Zoologix never was able to confirm specific strains. They can only detect DNA from multiple strains. You get a 'yes' or a 'no' for trich. No strain specification. This test is from a different commercial lab that Zoologix uses. Zoologix keeps samples for 6 months. They should be able to do what is necessary to prepare Cab's sample and send it to the commercial lab. The fee is $100 and I was told the result should be available in 1 1/2 weeks.
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| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 06:05:27 PM |
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I also comment you TJ for taking the time, energy, and finances to obtain answers in this situation. It's nice to see someone vested in real answers. A lot of gliders and their owners should thank you!
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 06:44:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DoubleBogey
I also comment you TJ for taking the time, energy, and finances to obtain answers in this situation. It's nice to see someone vested in real answers. A lot of gliders and their owners should thank you!
I am blessed that my husband has been so supportive!
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| LHill
Super Glider
 VA, USA
347 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 08:35:06 PM |
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Who do you contact to have this additional test done? I'd be interested.
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| CountrynCrafty
Face Hugger
USA
427 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 08:54:10 PM |
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Please defiantly let us know when you find out anything. I am not in a place right now to be able to do a send off, and I'd have to talk to hubby about it. I have some things here that I need to get taken care of first...
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 14 2012 : 09:09:33 PM |
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Steve @ Zoologix in California is who I talk to. If you have had a PCR test done by them (that test is $85) they keep the the samples and results for 6 months. I don't think this is a service they are used to providing all the time. I'm referring to this second test they are getting done for me on my sample (cost is $100). I am sure you can call and see if they will do it for you as well. I speculate that our gliders will all have the same strain. More than 1 sample from 1 location will be needed to prove this. I hope everyone who can will do the test!
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| LHill
Super Glider
VA, USA
347 Posts
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Jun 16 2012 : 12:03:10 AM |
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I'll make the call Monday. I'm happy to help with anything that betters the futures for these babies. When I get my results who is collecting the data?
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 16 2012 : 12:24:44 AM |
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Since I am the first to bag the strain test done, we haven't determined the next step. Let me do some research and see who I can come up with. I know Peggy Brewer has suggested people send their results to Dr. Tim Tristan but I haven't talked with him and do not know what he would plan to do with the info once it is gathered.
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 16 2012 : 12:32:34 AM |
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That was supposed to say 'to have' not bag. Typing on my phone. Excuse typos!
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 12:33:00 PM |
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I got the results from Steve at Zoologix regarding the DNA sequencing of the positive sample I asked them to do. The results state this: "Followup sequencing: 1203220127 amplicon sequence confirmed as Simplicimonas spp. – a recently-characterized group of organisms closely related to Tritrichomonas spp."
It is my understanding that these organisms were named as recently as 2010. There doesn't seem to be much information regarding them that is available to the layman. I do know that the DNA seems to be closely enough related to some other organisms that it comes up as 'positive' on tests for those organisms.
I have done my best to be helpful and transparent regarding things that I have found. I have spent thousands of dollars on testing when I didn't have sick gliders and have openly shared information and tried to brainstorm to figure what our gliders may have how these organisms may affect them.
I had some joey losses and I had one sick glider, Grace who we believe caused issues for 2 of her cagemates. After changing my diet I have had no more joey issues whatsoever. I never had 'ick' joeys in my home. I did testing to be proactive yet, I have been told that I have "unresolved issues" by one person and I now understand that people have been talking behind my back accusing me of having a "google degree". I am not sure how I will 'resolve' issues that appear to have been caused by bad diet? I do not care to deal with people who feel this way about my animals and my facility. At this point, I will not speculate nor will I comment on anything regarding other gliders. I have shared my test results and I wish everyone the very best in caring for their animals.
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1417 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 01:01:42 PM |
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You try your best to help and all you get is * for it? I hate 'people' ...
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| Omis n Kais g-ma
Pouch Protector
TX, USA
7276 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 01:11:45 PM |
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Okay, I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here but what is it? Signs, symptoms? I've heard the term and looked it up but it only gives me the human definition.
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| tjlong
Glider
136 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 01:56:44 PM |
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First off, Thank you Helen for the vote of confidence!
Next quote:
Originally posted by Omis n Kais g-ma
Okay, I'm going to sound like a complete idiot here but what is it? Signs, symptoms? I've heard the term and looked it up but it only gives me the human definition.
Honestly, none of my gliders that tested positive displayed any issues. The gliders that had positive results didn't lose any joeys, didn't pull joeys, didn't have diarrhea, nothing. EXCEPT for Grace. Grace was diagnosed with Group G Beta Hemolytic Strep in her cloaca from a culture and sensitivity swab. She had 2 different cage mates who got Necrotizing fasciitis of their genitalia' prior to me having the test done. After I got that test, a friend suggested I have her tested for trich. I took her to the vet and had a direct smear done and they saw a swimmer. I then had the PCR test done by Zoologix and it came back positive. We then knew we could test and get a positive result from Zoologix PCR for trich/tritrich. So I sent 30 samples to them. Three came back positive. That made a total of 4 positives in my testing. I changed my diet and added probiotics both at my vet's suggestion. I treated Grace for trich with a 21 day round of metronidazole. I did NOT treat any other cages. I re-tested Grace and 1 other cage after just over 3 months of the different diet/probiotic. Both came back negative! At that point is when I learned we could do the DNA sequencing. I did it for on cage (#13) who had tested positive but never had a single issue and then tested negative after the diet change. These were my results.
So, some gliders show up with swimmers on a direct fecal smear, some can test positive on the Zoologix PCR. NONE of my gliders that tested other than Grace gave me any indication they had anything. Go figure?!?
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| Skeeter
Face Hugger
Florida
422 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:04:24 PM |
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Tracy thank you for investing your time,energy and money to find out more about this issue. I dont blame you for backing away - you do not deserve the negative talk from anyone.
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| JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
5349 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:21:22 PM |
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Maybe we all need to start banding together and demanding more than "heresay" from the ones that spout....this diet was created by vets & nutritionists and gliders have been subjected to ongoing testing....
Anytime something is questioned or someone chooses not to use it....this is the mantra I hear...
Well, maybe all this testing needs to start being made available. When someone questions it, or doesn't even question it, just has issues, switches and those issues disappear, they are raked over the coals and "proof" that the issues were diet related are demanded...well maybe the demands need to go both ways!
I for one am tired of hearing, "healthy joey weights, healthy fur, ect. ect.... Oh that means it's a wonderful diet, BUT when the results are the opposite, it has to be something OTHER than diet. How hypocritical is that?
Thank you again Tracey for posting these results and explaining a bit more about this.
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| JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
5349 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:22:52 PM |
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Oh, and Lisa...the 'slang' term is "ick." I know you've heard of that. 
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| Omis n Kais g-ma
Pouch Protector
TX, USA
7276 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:30:25 PM |
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Did I miss something? I don't think I read anything about a specific diet allegedly causing it. Why can't it justy be some intestinal bacteria they can get from certain unclean foods? I'm obviously completely missing the point or whatever here. Hmm, 'trich' is a yeast like bacterial infection isn't it? And no Lyndia, I've never heard of 'ick'. If you'd like, you can PM me to tell me more about it. Or keep the discussion going so it can be a teaching, health discussion for others to see. quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysmom
Maybe we all need to start banding together and demanding more than "heresay" from the ones that spout....this diet was created by vets & nutritionists and gliders have been subjected to ongoing testing....
Anytime something is questioned or someone chooses not to use it....this is the mantra I hear...
Well, maybe all this testing needs to start being made available. When someone questions it, or doesn't even question it, just has issues, switches and those issues disappear, they are raked over the coals and "proof" that the issues were diet related are demanded...well maybe the demands need to go both ways!
I for one am tired of hearing, "healthy joey weights, healthy fur, ect. ect.... Oh that means it's a wonderful diet, BUT when the results are the opposite, it has to be something OTHER than diet. How hypocritical is that?
Thank you again Tracey for posting these results and explaining a bit more about this.
Edited by - Omis n Kais g-ma on Jun 29 2012 02:32:45 PM
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| JazzNZoeysmom
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
5349 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:35:35 PM |
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Lisa, I am referring to this portion of Traceys post:
quote:
I had some joey losses and I had one sick glider, Grace who we believe caused issues for 2 of her cagemates. After changing my diet I have had no more joey issues whatsoever. I never had 'ick' joeys in my home. I did testing to be proactive yet, I have been told that I have "unresolved issues" by one person and I now understand that people have been talking behind my back accusing me of having a "google degree". I am not sure how I will 'resolve' issues that appear to have been caused by bad diet? I do not care to deal with people who feel this way about my animals and my facility. At this point, I will not speculate nor will I comment on anything regarding other gliders. I have shared my test results and I wish everyone the very best in caring for their animals.
There are some photos floating around either her or on GC of "ick babies." The fur basically just looks wet all the time. The poor little angels are pretty scraggly looking. 
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1417 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:42:20 PM |
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I've seen the photo's and heard of it on US forums, it seems non existant in the UK thankfully. Did the joeys that have it survive?
I can't remember her name but a lady from the US posted on the UK forum when it first came about asking all of our breeders if any of our joeys had it, I'm sure she mentioned something about it being diet related, or the chance of it being diet related.
I've read the previous posts on this thread but I don't really understand much of it. Has the cause been determined?
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| Omis n Kais g-ma
Pouch Protector
TX, USA
7276 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 02:44:54 PM |
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I've searched through posts about ick on this forum and can't find any photos.Our boys don't look wet all the time nor half the time. But Kai looks pretty scraggly.quote:
Originally posted by JazzNZoeysmom
Lisa, I am referring to this portion of Traceys post:
quote:
I had some joey losses and I had one sick glider, Grace who we believe caused issues for 2 of her cagemates. After changing my diet I have had no more joey issues whatsoever. I never had 'ick' joeys in my home. I did testing to be proactive yet, I have been told that I have "unresolved issues" by one person and I now understand that people have been talking behind my back accusing me of having a "google degree". I am not sure how I will 'resolve' issues that appear to have been caused by bad diet? I do not care to deal with people who feel this way about my animals and my facility. At this point, I will not speculate nor will I comment on anything regarding other gliders. I have shared my test results and I wish everyone the very best in caring for their animals.
There are some photos floating around either her or on GC of "ick babies." The fur basically just looks wet all the time. The poor little angels are pretty scraggly looking.
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| Helen88uk
Fuzzy Wuzzy
United Kingdom
1417 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 03:01:38 PM |
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The ones I've seen where on GC, the joeys were yellowy/brown in colour and just looked as if they'd been dunked in water. Their fur was constantly damp and matted looking. Unless they were really servere cases I'd think it was definately something you'd notice if your joeys were to have it
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| Cora1
Face Hugger
TX, USA
763 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 09:38:59 PM |
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Tracey, People are going to talk, it is what it is. Please keep us involved I dont care what 1 or 2 people or even 3 or 4. There are many more than that that are truly interested and learning, TY.
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| Cora1
Face Hugger
TX, USA
763 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 09:44:42 PM |
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Omis, may we have pics?
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| DoubleBogey
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1244 Posts
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Jun 29 2012 : 11:41:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Cora1
Tracey, People are going to talk, it is what it is. Please keep us involved I dont care what 1 or 2 people or even 3 or 4. There are many more than that that are truly interested and learning, TY.
  I concur!!!
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| waterburyk9
Super Glider
294 Posts
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Jun 30 2012 : 02:16:07 PM |
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Thank you for going the extra mile, sometimes people just have to talk- I'm not sure why really, they just have to... Please just ignore them as it is a few that tend to ruin it for the rest of us.
thanks for give us the information and who to contact for the tests.
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| Omis n Kais g-ma
Pouch Protector
TX, USA
7276 Posts
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Jun 30 2012 : 05:13:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Cora1
Omis, may we have pics?
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| valkyriemome
Goofy Gorillatoes
USA
3478 Posts
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Jun 30 2012 : 07:50:14 PM |
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Tracy - people are going to talk. Some people influence the opinions and decisions of those too weak-minded to do their own thinking. Now, I have no idea who was saying stuff about you. But, I do know that you have invested a lot into something that benefits us all - and I am grateful for that.
Lisa - your glider is fine. Kai looks like he's on a bad diet, but I don't remember what you feed. He looks stained, is why I say that.
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