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I have 2 joeys almost 7weeks old (6weeks and about 3 days lool), both of them females. 1 rejected, 1 normal.
They are not together in the same cage, and the "normal" joey isn't with the parents anymore, since i wanted to bond with her and introduce her to solid food, she is a little crabby with me. However the rejected one loves me!
My questions are:
- When AND how should I start to introduce them to solid food and the food I give to my adult glider (LGRS soup)?
- Can I put them together in the same small cage, sleeping in the same pouch?
- Should I start leaving some solid fruit and LGRS in a little bowl during the night? (I'm afraid the rejected one may fall into the bowl and be all wet during the night).
- How many times, and how much, per day should I feed them with the 3mL dropper?
Hannah (normal), 6weeks old:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/p1030314u.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/p1030315s.jpg/
Lily (rejected), 6weeks old:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/p1030318g.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/p1030319.JPG/
#Tigerlily88 - I didn't remove her by will. Yesterday when I came home I found out she had been walking outside the pouch, and ESCAPED the cage. I don't know how did she escaped, my guess is that she passed through a small gap close to the door. The reason I was already asking this was in case the mother don't accept her back (I was just waiting for a good response so I knew if I should put her back with the mother or stay with her in another cage). Now about the rejected joey, I haven't take her to the vet for a general consult because the ONLY exotic vet in my area don't know much about them (mines were the first gliders they handled...) and i already made some posts about her, and supposedly everything was going fine! I feed her based on SUZ's recipe and routine. She is bigger than before, much more energetic, she eats well, she seems fine  #kidsmom32 - *response already written above* #Candy - My cage was homemade, 1,5m wide x 0,6 depth x 1,3 height. I used a hard plastic mesh, with only 1cm/1,2cm of opening. They are not chewers, and, the only gaps that exist in my cage are close to the hinges of the door (1,7cm opening, but the adult gliders can't pass through there! I have them there for a long time now) But it seems that the "normal" joey could pass through it s: So it seems I'll have to rearrange it so she can't escape again, and since i really should put her back in the cage with the parents. Tigerlily88 Face Hugger   KY, USA 842 Posts If the gap at the door is 1.7cm, then it is roughly 2/3 of an inch wide. Your adult gliders CAN and will eventually either escape from that, or like Candy said, die or seriously injure themselves trying. I'm not sure what other posts you made about your joey where everything was deemed "fine" but going by the pictures you showed, she most certainly is not. From the relationship to your hand, she looks to be roughly the size of a 2-3 week old joey and is in a very poor condition. Her growth has been severely stunted and she will very possibly suffer some long term consequences from this. My biggest recommendation to you would be to find a knowledgeable vet NOW and try to get on top of things along with neutering your male ASAP. From your first post, you made it sound like you removed the joey so that you could bond her to you and teach her to eat solid foods, but now you are saying that she escaped. I'm not going to venture a guess as to which is actually true, my only hope is that you will do your best to correct this situation before the joeys suffer any further health and developmental consequences. Like many have said on posts like this before, you will do what you will do, we can only hope you will make the right choices for your little ones. 1,7cm isn't 2/3inches... 1 cm = 2.54inches. Believe me, they really can't pass through there, at least the adult gliders!... I don't know about the sizes of yours gliders head, but mine can't even stick half of their head neither through the mesh's openings or the gap in the hinge. About what I said first about the normal one, obviously I wouldn't remove her from her parents without reason or knowing if I should! I only said it that way because I read in this forum that at this age, 7weeks oop, she could already "live" without the help of her mother, maybe I was wrong, and i should have been clear right from the start. Doesn't matter. So basically: - The rejected one I should really take to the vet for exams, and i should feed her more? - The normal joey, I'm going to put her now with her mother again, and hope she accept her back. Sorry for the misunderstood, and i'm grateful for you help! Helen88uk Fuzzy Wuzzy United Kingdom 1774 Posts Joeys should start eating solid food from 5wk OOP, usually the time they start leaving the sleeping pouch. It concerns me that your rejected joey is still being syringe fed and your asking if you should continue at 7wk. What have you been feeding it and how much/often? That joey looks smaller than my 3wk olds :( I really wouldn't put the two joeys together, I'd put the one that escaped back in with the parentsif it's only been out for a night or two. The parents teach them so much behaviour between 7-10wks. You stated in your first post that you removed it to help you bond with it, this isn' a good enough reason to take it too early. Your normal joey should have already started eating adult food by itself, I find it very unlikely that it's mother will have let it continue nursing ENOUGH to sustain it alone past 5wk. Your rejected joey needs a vet ASAP and a drastic diet change. You mentione also you were scared it would fall into it's water bowl, is it unable to move/climb properly? Can you tell us exactly what/how you've been feeding it. PnE Joey 33 Posts quote:
I count 28 'squares' across the side of your cage in the photo with the door open. 23.6 divided by 28 is 0.84 inches. That is greater than 3/4 inch spacing on the mesh on your cage NOT 1/2 inch. Your mesh spacing is 2.14 cm.
You're correct Candy I counted 28 also. Which explains how the joey got out and you should know that his can be a hazard for your adults Foxnora  . I wish you luck with Lily as she looks terribly sick. Cage & Hannah You're right about the inch = cm, my bad! Thought my adults can't pass throught it, seems like the joey might s: However each opening is 1,8cm wide, and her head is bigger than that! I checked it. Futhermore, I found a gap bigger than her (almost 4cm wide, how didn't I noticed that  ) head in a corner close to the ground! I've already closed it. Yesterday, after reading that Hannah should be put together with her parents, I did so! Right after reading the response. The mother accepted and all went fine. I never had problems with them stuck their head in the openings of the cage, since the only thing that passes throught it it's their nose... Both my adult gliders are almost 2 years old now. Lily About the food: At first I was feeding her one of SUZ joey recipe, http://www.suzsugargliders.com/helpforrejectedjoeys.htm
. After the 5week oop FINISHED, I start making 1 part of Aptamil HA supplement milk, to 1 part of adult glider food (LGRS soup + fruits/veggies/proteins), giving her each 3/4 hours 1mL/2mL. This week I'll be working on her eating from a bowl. Lily is bigger than before, more energetic, she climbs around well actualy. I never thought she could die now... even with her being much smaller than her sister. Oh, I only found out she wasn't eating at 2 weeks oop, that was when I took her out of the cage. I'm calling the vet tomorrow (today they're closed), however I think you guys will do a better job helping me than them, especially because they never heard of a sugar glider before. And supposedly they care for exotic animals. _____________________________________________________________________________ Forgeting the cage or Hannah, what can I do to Lily (rejected one)? I'm not talking on getting her to the vet, that I can and will do tomorrow! Questions: - What am I doing wrong with her?
- What should I feed her?
- How many times per day?
- Where should I put her since she's in bad conditons? (small cage, incubator, etc) Please, answer in front of the questions or make it easir for me to understand. Don't be rude or ignorant, I have suggies for only 1 year, and this were my first joeys, and obvisouly, my first rejected s: And when you guys say that she might die it makes me stressted... I really can't and won't let that happen, I love that little thing quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily88
I'm sorry if we came off harsh or rude, it's just shocking to see a baby that small at that age. Honestly, she is about the size of my 10 day old joeys. I went back and read some of your older posts, and you said at one point that you were not feeding her overnight. This could possibly account for some of the decreased growth and development, joeys MUST be fed around the clock when hand raising just as their mother would do. It's also highly possible that she has something developmentally wrong with her that is causing such stunted growth. She looks to me to be a bit mis-developed in some areas but it's hard to say whether it is due to lack of nutrition or congenital defect.
At this point, I don't really have much constructive that I can tell you, she's beyond my realm of experience now. In the abscence of a knowledgeable vet, the best suggestion I can give you is to register on The Sweet Spot, which is a more medically focused forum for gliders. The members there can undoubtedly give you some much better advice on how to proceed from here. There is an entire section dedicated to rejected joeys.
The Sweet Spot
You weren't, I just don't need that people may come here and argue or be rude for me doing something wrong. I already thougt of that, but it's hard for me to fall asslep, really hard /: But okay, I'll be feeding her each 3h, even overnight. If it really had to be done! Well she was rejected, and wasn't for me picking her up... Thanks for the link! I'll register now. So, I went to sweetspot, and they gave me a new receipt :) I'll buy today the ingredients and do it! If anyone checking this post with the same problem as me, i'll post here what I understood from what he said. You have to check if she's thermoregulating, put her in a pouch outside the "incubator", and go check on her every 15-30 min to check if she's cold. If she isn't, with that age, she can go to a small cage. New receipt:
- 1 part cat/puppie milk replacer;
- 1 part heavy cream;
- 1 part warm water.
In the first day give her 25% of the new receipt to 75% the one you're using (in my case it's 1part Aptamil + 1part LGRS). Then 2nd day 50% / 50% ; 3rd day 75% / 25% ; 4th day 100% new receipt Give 1mL - 2mL every 3-4 hours, for 1-2 weeks. After that, if she's going fine you may change to the adult glider food (LGRS soup in my case). He also said you can add a pro-biotic to help her digest :)Chris R Glider 119 Posts He is a She (that is helping you) :) and what we have you doing is basically starting back from the beginning because the joey hasnt had sufficient nutrients to grow properly (not your fault, you were doing the best you could with what you had) the recipe I have you changing to is done is every 2 day incriments, day 1 and day 2 is 75% of what joey has been on mixed with 25% of the new recipe day 3 and day 4 is a 50% mix of what you have been using and 50% of the new recipe day 5 and day 6 is 25% of your recipe and 75% of new recipe day 7 on is 100% of new recipe The reason I have you doing this is so not to upset her tummy, send her into metabolic shock Key is that you really want to watch the consistancy of her bowel movements (poop)... If she starts to get to soft, increase the water by 1 cc, if it goes to diahrrea immediately go to a mix of 50% water (if you have 2 cc planned to feed her that time mix it with another 2 cc of water) if her bowel movements get to hard/dry then you cut the water back by 1cc in your formula mix (the amount you are making up for the period ie 2 days) You never did say if she was able to thermoregulate or not? Can you please answer if she is able to do so Also if she starts to get diahrrea I need you to contact me immediately so we can formulate a plan, this joey is not in good shape and diahrrea could be determental at this point in "the game" Good Luck! Im praying for this little one to completely turn around!!
Some photos from our members graciedawn Super Glider  222 Posts I hope that Lily is doing OK. I just wanted to add that while the amount of food is important, the content is just as important. Rocky (my rejected joey) didn't look very healthy when he was younger. He was always smaller and his hair, well lets just say he had a perpetual bad hair day until he was several months old. I do agree that she needs a vet check, even if it is just for them to have a visual to start their care from. Rocky visited the vets office frequently for a couple of reasons: they could gain knowledge and they could keep track of his progress. This was my vets first experience with gliders, and he was learning right along with me. He made some contacts that he would and still consults with. These were just pop in and out kind of visits. I also kept close track of his weight, once a day. I started him on solid food too quickly and he started loosing weight, so I put him back on the formula. Their development does not follow the normal joey development. Rocky was delayed in most aspects, except for bonding with me. Some suggestions: include Wombaroo Milk Replacer in the formula (I added this to the parents diet before OOP and used it in Rocky's formula) Discuss this with whoever is helping you with diet before doing so. Keep her on you (in your bra) as often as possible. Your warmth and moisture in your skin will help in regulating her body temp. I think Rocky also liked being near a live body, or maybe that was just wishful thinking. Keep track of her weight. Here is a pic of Rocky's bad hair day 
Oh Chris! Haha, I forgot the update about the ratio I should give. But I'm following exactly as you said in SweetSpot :) Lily has a little more fur, her movements are smoother/fluid than before. She don't seem to have diarrhea. And yes, she can thermoregulate :) I checked her every 15/30 min, while having her in a pouch without the hot water bottle, and she wasn't nor cold nor too hot, I think she had a good temperature. Before I was giving her less than 1,5mL since she wasn't eating more than that, but with the receipt Chris gave me, she eats a full 2mL!  Friday or Saturday I'll try to upload some new pics so you guys can keep her in track and help me see if she's developing well or not. One thing, she has a little piece of poop stuck in her fur, right between her eyes -.- I tried to clean it up with a moist swab, useless... Same with a wet wipe. I'm not doing much strength and being carefull to not hit her in the eyes or pull her fur. Any suggestions on how to take it out? Oh and I'm a 19y male, so I can't put her in my bra  but I'm currently making her a bonding pouch made of polar fleece? I think it's how it's called. It will be like this, but with a smaller "window": 
I hope I didn't forgot to answer nothing... petluv15 Fuzzy Wuzzy   1500 Posts LOL, and what about the poop in her head? ): I still have to know how to clean it! I'll be updating my main album today, with pics from all my animals, and I actually appear in them xD Chris R Glider 119 Posts soak it with a swab and warm water (for the poop) keep wetting it until it loosens and then you should be able to gently wipe most of it off and Lily should be able to get the rest of it off by grooming it herself Im glad that she likes the formula
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Glad to hear it sounds like you are on the right track! Hopefully you will see more big changes soon!