I have two bonded gliders, Acro (neutered male, 11 months old) and Dot (female, 11 months old). Dot is very tame and loves being held, Acro is more wild and crazy but is super sweet to Dot. They have been together since they were 4 months OOP.

I recently went on vacation and left them under the care of my glider-owning friend who I thought would be a safe bet for a babysitter. She feeds BML too and knows how to handle them. I stressed quarantine and how our gliders couldn't meet. She has an unneutered male. I got back and everything was fine, or so I thought...

Now, I just found out Dot is pregnant, when I felt a lump and rushed her to the vet. I was so shocked! But later, talking to my friend, she ended up admitting to putting her boy in with mine for "playtime". Back to the vet for fecals, all clear, luckily.

Now I have a pregnant girl, and no idea how to deal with her. I've read up on rejected joeys and am gathering the materials I need to handfeed if I must, but what about Acro (her cagemate)? Should I separate them, will he try harm the baby? Will he smell the other male on her joey? Will she destroy the baby since she's away from the father? I can't get the real father, my friend won't give him up.

I've kept them together in their large cage (2'x3'x6') since I found out but added more sleeping pouches so she can get away if she needs some alone time. I've also doubled food portions and have 2 feeding stations. I do have a smaller cage (18"x24"x55") I can put her in if separating is the way to go, but I'm worried they'd get lonely. Advice, please! Is there anything else I am missing?

I do not know how glider dads know if the baby is theirs, but I know that males sometimes kill and/or eat babies that are not theirs. It's possible for it to be done to their own babies too. Females can do it to babies that aren't theirs... or to their own. If you learn that they can't really tell I would keep them together, but if your male can tell that it isn't his baby he very well may kill the babies. They are a little young, but close enough to a year that their age is probably going to be okay. Having a dad is very important, but she can raise them alone if needed. It'll be tough on you both, and there's a much higher risk of the joeys being rejected or killed out of stress. She's on a high protein diet which is good for milk production. I would ask vets and professionals and see if you can figure out if your male will be able to easily tell. If you just leave them together and act like it's his, there's a chance he'll help raise them. If you take them apart it will stress the female out. Stress is very very bad when there are joeys. You want to do NOTHING at all that could stress her out. Sorry I really don't know the answer. Good luck. If you choose to let her raise them alone you will need to give her a break every night by babysitting her joeys- keeping them warm while she plays freely. Ideally you do this a few times a night but that isn't always possible. I would also remove all extra sleeping pouches or anything she can pouch in if she's raising them alone, because she can go to another nest and leave the joeys to die. We had to have our girl raise joeys alone and it wasn't fun. She would try to avoid them all the could because she was just so tired and stressed out.

Side note: One of the main worries for me is whether it is safe for your male to help raise the kids. Keep in mind that they are little tiny babies inside her pouch right now. If she is housed with the male now, and he wanted to kill them, he could do so. They are both able to open up that pouch, reach in there, grab the joeys and eat/kill them. I'm not suggesting that you separate them now, though you could. I personally would try keeping them together to see what happens, because raising joeys without the dad is really hard for her and you. If you see them getting bigger and bigger and the male hasn't tried to kill them yet, it may logically be a good sign. It could always just be that the mom isn't letting him, and once the babies are out he could do it then. I don't know. Just something to think about. If he doesn't try to harm them he may be tolerating them and even accepting them as his. Neutered males do not "know" they are neutered, so it isn't like he knows he can't have kids.

I would not separate your gliders. Your neutered male will probably be just fine with the joeys and will help raise them. Your gliders share a common scent - a combination of both of their scents that identify them as 'family' to each other. The joeys are not going to carry the scent of a male glider that is no longer in contact with them - and probably has not been in contact with the mother since the babies were born and made their way successfully to her pouch to complete their development.

I have had joeys born in a family colony and their older (neutered) brother helped care for them along with mom and dad.

I also have a breeding trio colony. Two females, one intact male and two neutered adult males (first joeys). The neutered males do their fair share when it comes to bringing up the joeys, they even piggy back them back to the sleeping pouch if they wonder.

I would keep them together, there is a much higher risk of a single mother rejecting I think, she is also young.

Be prepared for rejection/can in a list ion regardless as first time mothers can always be hit and miss, even with the father there.

Sorry about the unexpected situation but have a read up about pregnancy and joey care. Get a rejection kit sorted and have a think about what you are going to be doing with the joeys, all being well. Would you keep them? Is your cage big enough for possibly 4 gliders?

Update!

After admonishing my friend again she's offered to lend me the real father in exchange for the father & Joey once it is weaned. I told her to keep the father since I will try keeping my two together and I don't think separating my female from her bonded cagemate would help her stress levels. Is this the right choice? Lmk if it isn't!

I've also moved their cage into my bedroom so I can monitor them easier as the pregnancy continues. I've been checking her lumps and she might have two! But it's hard to tell because I'm worried about detaching the joeys so I don't want to prod her too much. I have noticed they've been more talkative at night, lots more tsssting. They still happily share a pouch though. Hopefully the joey(s) will be OK.

If there is 1, I am going to give it to my friend for a companion to her male (with the stipulation that they're both neutered/her male is) and if there's 2 I am going to keep the other. My cage is a bit over 2'x3'x6' (custom built PVC cage) and would fit 3 gliders well.

Thanks for all the help so far! I feel much more confident with leaving my pair together now.

I think that your decision of keeping your current pair together and not accepting your friend's male is for the best.

Separating bonded gliders creates a lot of stress for the gliders involve, and depression. All of this is specially bad for a pregnant female.

Had you taken your friend's male, you would have to had go through introductions (just because they mated, does not mean they get along). This can create all sort of danger for not only the joeys, but also your adult pair. Also, because your female hasn't been with the intact male and instead has spend all her time with the neutered one, she will have his scent, and when putting her with the other male this could trigger an aggressive behavior from him, and could have severely endangered the joeys.

What your friend did was very irresponsible, it put your and her gliders in a lot of risk; glider fights can be fatal. Are you sure you want her to keep your joey? If you decide to follow through with it, she needs to be conscious that even if her current glider is the father, he did not raise the joey, and won't recognize it (it'll be a stranger to him). The joey and the adult glider will need to be kept separated until the joey has reach a size similar to the older glider (a small joey is not capable of defending itself against an adult glider, it will at least suffer severe injuries). Can you trust her to do this? If there is even the small possibility of her getting overexcited and not follow your instructions, the result could be fatal. For this you need to either keep the joey until it is an adult, or somehow make absolutely sure she will not attempt this.

Just my recommendation. But I am glad you are so caring of your glider.

I have to say, I wholeheartedly agree with Rusty.

I would NOT reward your friend's irresponsibility with a FREE joey. That is probably exactly what she had in mind when she allowed your female to interact with him.

I would keep the joeys as part of a family colony.

If it were my glider having the joeys - I would ask the 'friend' for the cost of neutering one or both joeys if they are male so they could continue to live in the same cage with their mother.

I think everyone agrees that your two gliders should raise the babies. And it seems like everyone thinks your two should keep their babies, however many there are. Taking babies away from their parents, even after they are able to be independent, is kinda uncool. I mean, you just take them one day and they never get to see each other again, and they don't know that. I just hate the idea of separating them when it isn't necessary. Anyways, I don't think you should give your friend joeys. Why would you even do that? They are your joeys. Here's the thing, your bonded pair will be raising them. You're very right that separating them will stress mom out to no end, and it is unnecessary. Most gliders have two babies at a time, but it could be one of course. Just keep them all together. There is no reason to separate them. If you have any male babies you must get them neutered at about 3 months, or separate them from any females until you can get them neutered. If you have two joeys, giving one to your friend and keeping one seems kinda... mean to the joeys, to me. They're brothers/sisters! Let them stay together. You and your friend discussed not putting her gliders with yours and she was irresponsible. Putting them together could have let to a FIGHT. You're lucky it led to babies and not a hurt or dead glider... or diseases. I agree with them that it would be almost like rewarding your friend with a free joey. Did she ask for it? If she asked then maybe she wanted this to happen... Maybe I'm being a little harsh but I really think families should be kept together. If your male thinks these babies are his and raises them then by all means, they are his and the family should be kept together.
I always keep the cage in my room when there's joeys around. You will probably hear some really weird and loud noises from mom. People call it singing, but it's basically the joeys nursing from her and it can get uncomfortable. They even push them away sometimes. Look up singing and know what to expect, because it can sound like a very bad noise if you don't know about it. I think it happens when it hurts mom's nipples to have the babies continuously nursing, which makes sense. It may happen every night, or occasionally. This is mainly towards the end and once they're oop. Also, never touch the pouch with the joeys in it. You said you check on them, I'm just making sure you only look and do not touch, 'cause that can kill the joeys as you know. Any other questions just ask! I have "helped raise" 3 joeys so feel free to PM me if you have any questions about that. Yours aren't oop yet so it's easy... they just chill in there! Haha.

The only reason I considered giving up a joey is because my friend only has one glider. I've been encouraging her to buy another one so he won't be alone.. But she thought having one was OK since the pet store told her it would be. She put them together because she heard them barking to eachother at night and thought they were wanting to play. Her boy never barks by himself. I am always telling her how a single glider is dangerous for the gliders wellbeing but that was the first time she really saw him "lonely". (She thought because she carries him in his pouch in the day and has tent time at night for an hour that would be enough attention). At least now she thinks another glider would be better for him too. So even though this whole thing has been super stressful for me and my gliders I think maybe the silver lining would be for her glider not to be alone anymore.

I would LOVE to keep all the joeys! I've been wanting a colony and I think family colonies are ideal. But I'm stuck between giving up a joey to a lonely bio dad or keeping them and hoping my friend will buy another one from a pet store. I don't like buying pets from pet stores (ours has their suggies on pellet diets) and I don't like supporting that. Hard to know what is the right thing to do. I don't like the idea of "rewarding" her bad behaviour with a free joey....but I'm thinking more of her glider than her.

If I did give up a joey it wouldn't be until I have proof her male is neutered and I would definitely keep the joey until it is bigger. Her male is only 4 months old. She sounded pretty shocked when I told her Dot was preg, she didn't think a 4 month male was ready to breed yet. So I don't think she planned on them mating, I think it was just a stupid 3am decision upon waking to barking. I'm so glad it was only babies and not a fight; the thought of putting unbonded gliders together and leaving them unattended like that gives me a cold sweat!

She did pay for fecals for my gliders and her boy once I found out she had them together. And she offered to pay for any vet trips the joey/mom may need. So I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, she wants to be a good glider owner she just hasn't researched as much as she should have.

At least I have some time before the joeys are here to decide what to do. I have encouraged her to better her glider's life in other ways (bigger cage, glider-safe wheel, bml diet over pellets, no rope bird toys in the cage) so I hope I can walk her through gradual intros if it comes down to that. But I would feel horrible if I gave her the joey and something bad happened. Ugh, I'm so torn! Thanks for the help, you have all given me a lot to think about!

Update!

I've had to seperate my pair :(
Over the last 3 nights I've heard more tsst sounds and some crabbing (they usually never crab at eachother) and he's been chasing her around a lot more. He's also been grabbing her and rubbing his forehead back and forth on her chest and wiping his chest on her while she tries to get away. I haven't seen him do this so intensely before.

Earlier this morning I was doing glider laundry and swapped out their dirty pouch for a clean one.. Acro went in the fresh pouch first but when Dot went in to follow him he freaked out and they balled up crabbing and fighting! They have NEVER balled up before and I literally had to pull them apart because they weren't breaking apart. It probably only lasted 3 seconds but they never fight like that, ever. I checked them out and Acro looks ok (but pretty scared) and Dot has a little cut by her nose that was bleeding a bit. I've flushed it out with saline and have a vet appointment in an hour and a half (soonest they could get me in).

I'm terrified of over grooming so I have her in a bonding pouch with me now (she doesn't seem hurt and hasn't touched her cut) but I'm keeping a close eye on her.

I don't know if she's in heat and that's why they're fighting, but now that he has hurt her I don't know if putting them back together is a good idea. Maybe Acro was trying to get at the babies and Dot was trying to defend them? I have two large cages so keeping them seperate is possible but I know single gliders are not ideal and Dot has babies in her pouch!

Was I wrong to swap the pouch? I know not to swap them when babies are out but should I have left the dirty pouch when her babies are still in pouch? Will I be able to slowly intro them in a couple days (if she is in heat now) or should I keep them seperate until after the joeys are out and grown? How long can I keep seperate gliders without issue? Will they be ok together eventually or should I look for a friend for him and just keep mom&joeys as their own colony? I am shaking, I feel like a horrible glider mom :(

I am definitely not giving up a Joey now. This whole thing has turned all our worlds upside down. My poor gliders. Dot is asleep in her bonding pouch and Acro is in his open-environment pouch, awake and looking around. Normally he sleeps all day. I gave him a treat and he ate it, but not as happily as he normally does :(

I am going to have to take Dot in the bonding pouch and Acro in the travel cage to the vet because I only have one travel cage. I'm so worried.

Please, if anyone has dealt with anything like this or has any input let me know. I will update after the vet.

Small cuts like that usually heal up by themselves, you can treat with neosporin to avoid an infection. Still, is always good to pay the vet a visit if you are not sure, not only about the wound, but their behavior as well.

In any case, is hard for a lone mother to raise joeys by herself, it'd be better if she could be with your male; but not if it presents a threat for any glider.

Usually there should be no issues with swapping your glider's pouch with a new, clean pouch. You could be right about the change triggering the aggressive behavior, or about your female having been in heat. Though a male is neutered, they are not aware of this, they will still try to mate with a female in heat, and of course, mark her. All of this could have annoyed your girl, specially if she does not want to mate, to the point where they start a fight.

If it is because she is in heat, you could wait 2 or 3 days before putting together(during this time, swap fleece and toys between the 2 cages, and try to keep them close, but not close enough that they can grab at each other). Then try to put them together again, in a new or clean pouch, one that doesn't have the scent of one glider or another. If they go in without fighting, and just fall back asleep, you can put them back in their cage (in a clean cage, again, so it doesn't smell more like any one glider). After that, keep a close watch on them and if for some reason they start fighting separate them again (try to have separate plates, so they don't fight over food), and start a process similar to that of glider introductions (scent swapping of fleece, toys, and pouches); and try again a few days later.

First time mothers are much more prompt to loose the joeys, this could be for so many reasons:

- The glider is not experienced enough
- There could have been something inherently wrong with the joeys (something you don't necessarily notice)
- Mom couldn't produce enough milk, specially if they are 2 joeys IP
- Mom was too stressed, etc, etc

The joeys will have a better chance if mom has some help from your other glider. But again, all of it will be counterproductive if it endangers one of your gliders.

Be prepared in case of joey rejection:

www.suzsugargliders.com/handraisingajoey.htm

www.suzsugargliders.com/helpforrejectedjoeys.htm

Wish you luck.