Hey Everyone,
Excuse this brick of text but any nutrition buffs on here may get some interesting reading below... Since the death of my dear Jaqen I have been obsessively studying sugar glider diets, digging up what research has been done and trying to ensure that I am giving my gliders the best balanced diet possible. For background, Jaqen's death was caused by a blockage in his urethra which the vet believed was due to his questionable lineage (he was a rescue) but I still fear that the diet may have contributed. He was on Ruth's modified Leadbeaters which is quite high in calcium.
I have started using HPW and have looked over Candy's very well informed glider kids information. I am also very familiar with recipes that are formulated on the nutrition page here, but I'm not sure that data is pulled from. Anyway, I have been developing my own excel spreadsheet that takes into consideration additional factors that I have found concrete sugar glider research in (Energy intake, Protein, Iron, vitamins) and I have found that my Ca:P ratios are very different from Candy's. I have triple checked the USDA dataset that I am using (brief version available here: ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/ and the full dataset can be downloaded in the USDA SR27 form). I have also looked at Candy's reference- nutritiondata and have found that both our spreadsheets are correct based on our references. However, for example, USDA SR27 lists 1c raw papaya with 29mg Ca/14mg P whereas nutritiondata specifies 33.6mg Ca/7mg P (the difference is huge- a 2:1 vs a 4.8:1
At the bottom of the nutritiondata page they do also cite that their data comes from the USDA SR21- this is an old nutrition listing by the USDA; the SR27 has the most up to date data. I just wanted to let everyone know about this disparity. Clearly there is very high variability in the nutritional profile of at least some fruits/veggies...

Thanks for the information.

I guess I need to look at the updated data and perhaps make some corrections in my spreadsheet.

I am not surprised that the values are off for papaya - but if this is confirmed it is going to put a crimp in a lot of folks previous recipes that use papaya and Bok Choi as a basis for mixtures of fruits and vegetables for gliders that have the "magical" value of a 2:1 ratio.

I believe these relish recipes are not nutritionally sound anyway because they contain Papaya or Bok Choi as MORE THAN HALF of the overall fruits and vegetables fed to their gliders.

I have been contemplating how there is such a drastic change in the papaya. Most other fruits and veggies are listed within 0.5 of the Ca/P that is on the gliderkids/nutritiondata... I know that GMO papaya is hard to avoid these days (esp from Hawaii I think) and maybe this is the reason for such a dramatic nutritional shift? Anyway, I agree with you that the best solution is knocking the protein up to a 2:1 so that you have flexibility with the fruits and veggie options.

There may have been an error in the earlier database in the amount of phosphorus in the papaya. If that amount were entered into the database lower than its actual value - it would have thrown the calculation off significantly.

What many people assume is that a higher ratio means that food has MORE calcium than other foods. The ratio is a comparison - not the amount of calcium. Papaya has about the same amount of Calcium as green beans. The reason it has a higher ratio was the very low amount of phosphorus. MOST fruits and vegetables are relatively neutral - about the same amount of both calcium and phosphorus giving them a ratio close to 1:1

That is why I would not be surprised if the Phosphorus value for papaya were incorrect in the old database.

That reminds me of another issue that I have been having with glider nutrition. If health issues arise from a lack of calcium, why is there not a better reference for glider daily calcium requirements? You always hear about the need for there to be up to 2x more Ca than P in the glider diet, but there is no reference that I have found that states a mg Ca needed for optimal health.

I have found one study that states Ca should be 0.8% of their daily diet by dry weight(P should be 0.4%), but i have no idea how to estimate a dry weight for a food item based on the wet weight...

I share your frustration at the lack of specific guidelines.

When I started researching glider diets about 7 years ago I did an analysis of all the then widely used glider diets to establish a range of the nutrients those diets provided. I found BML was highest and HPW was lowest in protein, calcium, phosphorus, fat, fiber and iron. For sugar content, HPW was highest and BML was lowest.

I used those values and designed my own glider staple recipes to be mid-range between those high and low values.

I also felt that HPW with a ratio of 0.96:1 and BML with a ratio of 3.6:1 could both use some improvement - because I feel having the staple provide an appropriate amount of calcium daily is better than trying to adjust the overall calcium with fruits and vegetables to go with HPW or following the limitations on fruits and vegetables for BML to prevent a calcium overload.

I once proposed adding calcium to HPW (900 mg calcium brings a batch of Original HPW up to a 2:1 ratio for the staple and reducing the calcium supplement in BML from 2 teaspoons would bring it down to close to a 2:1 ratio and remove the need for the restrictions on the fruits and vegetables fed with it. Both Peggy and Bourbon out right rejected the idea that either of these diets could be modified in this way.

So I moved forward with my own research and wrote my own feeding plan - with several staple recipes to honor owner's preferences for things like eggs only, no eggs, less honey etc. My recipes all have a ratio close to 2:1 and are compatible with feeding any fruits and vegetables you wish and still keeping the overall feeding in the 1.5 to 1.8:1 range for the calcium and phosphorus ratios.

For me, it has simplified feeding my gliders. I so not have to worry about the ratios of the fruits and vegetables I offer - I just offer a different pair each night rotating through at least 7 fruits and 7 vegetables each week to provide my gliders with the broad range of vitamins and minerals these bring to the over all feeding. Most fruits and vegetables are relatively neutral in their calcium to phosphorus amounts - a majority of them are close to a 1:1 ratio.

Ok so I have a question or 3 about all this.

When I looked at the bml recipe that was given to me and compared it to Candy's altered BML the only difference I can see is the amount of calcium, baby cereal and vitamin powder. Which I understand makes Candy's version more flexible with fruits and veg because it has 1 teaspoon less of calcium.

My question is can the Priscilla Price diet be altered to have the rep cal calcium and vit that the BML uses instead of the multivitamin/calcium supplement that the diet requires?

I get that there are some other ingredients in the supplement like bee pollen which I have on hand, but what would be lacking in the over all diet if you use the repcal products instead of her multivitamin you are still supplying calcium and multivitamins just from a different source.

My gliders both seem to eat the BML ok for a while and then get tired of the bml itself. I would like to continue using the rep cal products though because I can find them locally. I would just like a diet that they will eat long term without snubbing it, maybe that's unrealistic? Which leads me to one more question, is it frowned upon to use 2 different staples when they stop eating one of them change to the other etc ?

I maybe wrong in my thinking but if they aren't eating the bml long term and will eat the substitute diet for a while at least they are getting some benefit of the nutrients of both diets. On the other hand I don't want to mess up their tummies by doing so.



I also don't understand who does the analysis of the diets? Do you take it into a lab or something or do you just mean you researched all the ingredients ?

I'm not trying to interrogate anyone I just really want to understand all of this better so I can make better decisions.

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My question is can the Priscilla Price diet be altered to have the rep cal calcium and vit that the BML uses instead of the multivitamin/calcium supplement that the diet requires?

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No you cannot substitute another calcium & vitamin supplements because you would not be able to match the dosage of calcium and vitamins in Priscilla's combination. Different brands of calcium supplements have different milligram amounts of calcium per teaspoon -
It is almost impossible to sprinkle an appropriate dosage because it is such a small volume.

Priscilla's vitamins contain vitamins, calcium, bee pollen, acacia gum and other supplements so that the dosage can be measured (1/8 tsp per glider)

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Which leads me to one more question, is it frowned upon to use 2 different staples when they stop eating one of them change to the other etc ?

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The biggest problem with switching between two totally different diets is that it often takes gliders several days before the actually eat a new diet well. If you switch frequently there is a possibility that the gliders will eat poorly for several days EACH time you switch. If you are switching between something like BML that is very high in most nutrients to HPW which is on the low end of the amount of nutrients in the staple the glider's digestive system would also have to have time to adjust. For example if you are used to eating a diet that is mostly salads and plain meats prepared by grilling or baking and you suddenly began eating a diet that was mostly pasta and meats with lots of seasoning and sauces - you might have some digestive problems until your body gets used to the new diet. If you switch frequently you might have problems with digestive issues each time you change eating patterns.

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I also don't understand who does the analysis of the diets? Do you take it into a lab or something or do you just mean you researched all the ingredients ?

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There is no formal approval process for the staple recipes we feed our gliders. As part of my own research I created a spread sheet to calculate the amounts of protein, calcium, phosphorus, sugar, fat, fiber and iron in various glider staple recipes based on the amounts contained in each ingredient. This allowed me to break each staple down to the amounts in one recommended daily glider serving that I could compare to the other staples to see how much of each of these nutrients gliders were being fed each day. I have posted values with each of my staple recipes so anyone can see the differences between my recipes. I used to have values posted for other widely used glider staples but Peggy and Bourbon did not want that information made available so I removed the comparisons from my web page. Peggy has refused to reveal the break down on her HPW PLUS and HPW Complete so specific information is NOT available for those diets. I do have detailed information on Wombaroo High Protein Supplement from the manufacturer which I used in the calculation of nutrients in my staple recipes. The information on other foods used in my recipes was take from Nutritiondata.com

Ty Candy,

I guess for now I will continue feeding them what they will eat, when they will eat it. It's not like I just randomly switch their diets on them for the fun of it lol and I know that wasn't being implied. They typically go through about 2 batches of bml then stop eating it. When they stop I switch and they go right for the other one.

I keep a pretty good eye on them and haven't noticed any issues or changes with their bathroom habits everything stays pretty much the same. When the secondary batch is gone their ready for the bml I should specify it's your glider kids leadbeaters staple, because I like the freedom of choice for fruits n vegs, I guess I type bml out of habit without specifying. So the fruits and veg aren't changed even though the staple is. I believe this is helping keep their digestive system pretty regular, but obviously I'm not a nutritionist.

In general I understand what you mean about switching diets. But I'm not left with much choice. I either let them not eat the bml and not get the nutrients they need. Or feed them something different that they will eat and get the nutrients from, while they will eat it.

At any rate at least now I sort of understand how it's analysed/calculated. I'm not all that thrilled that some of the other diets don't want some of this information made public, so I do appreciate You making your findings available and ty for that. Even if I don't really "get" all of it lol I can appreciate the time you have taken to untangle this ball of knots and the repeated times you have probably had to explain it to folks like me. So again Ty for taking the time to explain it.

I don't have much to add to Candy's explanation on how to calculate the nutritional content of staples. It is unfortunate that diets have been developed in a pretty closed system- ie no transparency documenting justifications for the nutritional profiles of each diet. As far as I found there have been two published studies that examine glider health with respect to diet, laying out guidelines for nutritional intake. See the links below:

www.sugar-gliders.com/Sugar-Glider-Diet-Study.pdf

www.glidernursery.com/uploads/1/9/0/6/19062649/sugar_glider_feeding_dierenfeld2009_vap3111.pdf

Thank you for the links Nightcrawler!

Ty I will check them out. I like to know exactly what I'm feeding them so some things I just don't feel comfortable with. Like the Priscilla supplements,I get that it may have other nutrients that the repcal multivitamin may not. But because it just says " nectar, bee pollen, probiotics, acacia gum, and herbs" were just not comfortable using it.

Nectar from where? what herbs? there maybe an herb in there that I don't want to feed my gliders... There are some herbs I feed mine like parsley and basil now and then, and if the description would state what is in there I might be more inclined to buy some.

Anyway after some digging I found a post on a different forum. Now that I look at it lol it is one of Candy's posts from 2008.

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Surprisingly enough for some people as this will be, Priscilla has given me a break down!

Now keep in mind when looking at this and looking at the Rep Vits that we aren't trying to make a play by play comparison here. If someone else would like to take that on feel free, but my goal for this post was simply to get an idea of what the differences might be, so that those of us in the "common world" can have a little bit of a better understanding about vitamins.

So here is Priscilla's vitamin breakdown:

Breakdown per 7 tablespoons Pet Glider Vitamins

VITAMINS & MINERALS

Vitamin A 15,000 IU
Vitamin C 1,000mg
Vitamin D2 500IU
Vitamin E 400IU
Vitamin K 5mcg
Thiamine B-1 25mg
Riboflavin B-2 25mg
Niacin 100mg
Choline 100mg
Inositol 100mg
Vitamin B-6 25mg
Folic Acid 400mcg
Vitamin B-12 25mcg
Biotin 25mcg
Pantothenic Acid 25mg
Calcium 1,125mg
Iron 9mg
Phosphorus 200mg
Iodine 180mcg
Magnesium 200mg
Zinc 15mg
Selenium 50mcg
Copper 0.2mg
Manganese 4mg
Chromium 50mcg
Potassium 100mg

AMINO ACIDS

Alanine 196mg
Arginine 256mg
Aspartic Acid 297mg
Cystine/Cysteine 60mg
Glutamic Acid 424mg
Glycine 163mg
Histidine 71mg
Isoleucine 135mg
Leucine 274mg
Lysine 146mg
Methionine 117mg
Phenylalanine 167mg
Proline 170mg
Serine 165mg
Threonine 123mg
Tryptophan 48mg
Tyrosine 147mg
Valine 160mg

Also includes:
-Calcium sup approved through the FDA
-nectar, bee pollen, milk thistle for healthy liver function, probiotics for the immune system and for better absorption of nutrients, and Gum Arabic (from the Acacia species) a carbohydrate high in calcium

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I figured I may as well share it here in case anyone else wanted to have a look at it that is interested in this diet. I'm assuming the "herbs" is the milk thistle as it doesn't really mention anything else.

the quote was from 2010 sorry i miss read