So in late March I bought my first pair of gliders from a PocketPets breeder in Ontario. The male (Charlie) is fixed and is one of those extra white ones. The female (Chloe) is an average female. Bother were reported as only being around 7 weeks old.

Let's start with the Male;
Charlie is sweet and easy going. Very groggy when he wakes and whenever he's tired. You can get away with murder when he's tired or just waking up. He responds very well to pumpkin seed treats. He will readily come to my hand for a treat, he'll even climb on my hand to eat a pile of treats although a little nervous while doing it. When grabbed he remains quiet and just tries to push his way out. When pouched he may crab some from time to time but is quick to quiet down and eat his apple or go to sleep. In tenting, he's a little more distant. He'll climb on me and explore but he's not as keen. If left to explore my hand, he likes to nip a little but respect dis quickly to hsss threats. And Charlie likes to pull hair.

The Female Chloe is entirely different.;
Chloe loves to groom my head. I discovered this during tenting. She loves to like my scalp, be it in the tent or through the bars. Chloe is more brazen and will take, more chances. She will approach my hand but is ore cautious about that, yet she'll throw all her fears out the window for a treat. She steals treats from Charlie and even if I catch Charlie alone while she's asleep, she will wake the instant she notices I touched the cage and steal all of the treats from Charlie. She'll even drop any treat she has to come steal his so I treat her last. If they're both asleep, Chloe will wake the instant she feels the tiniest touch on the cage. Catching her a sleep is extremely rare. From the moment we brought her home she has been a little viper if you hold her, crabbing and trying to bite. I've tried just holding her in my hand for long stretches of time but she only stops of I completely wear her down. In the pouch she attacks the sides at the mere scent of my breath exhaling on it and never seems to calm down unless I'm completely still. I've tents her and she'll climb all over me. I've tried to use her love of treats, holding a full jar of apple sauce open for her to eat her fill while I stroked her. She would permit the stroking grudgingly as long as the apple sauce was flowing.
In the cage if I offer pumpkin seeds, it's a grab and run, only allowing me to touch until she gets what she's after.

Neither has bonded yet. I eel like Chrarlie would have long ago if not for having to catch Chloe it what must appear to be a scary chase event and with all her crabbing and complaining to be left alone.

The breeder just keeps guaranteeing that pouching is all that's needed, keep pouching, it's a process, etc, etc. I get it a process but I feel Chloe is making matters worse.

Any tips?

April. may. most of june. Sounds like normal gliders to me.
We have several extra gliders, and the wide and differing personalities for each
one makes your experience sound normal.

I would say ANYTHING that will teach your gliders to trust you can be considered good bonding trick. Spending a good amount of time with them in a bonding pouch with you is good, you can if you wish just put the harder one in the pouch and keep with you during the day, but remember to keep her/him hydrated with apple treat available.

one of our first gliders Link was real slow to bond/trust us, it was suppose to be the kids but they did nothing with him. so finally I would feed him treats with the cage door open, as he got more comfy I made him step on my arm for the treat. After a long time he stopped running away some of the time and would eat right in front of me. so after I made him get ON my arm, I would pull away from cage and make him eat treats on my arm. Then I started carrying him to frig and getting live mealworm. so now he will come to door of cage, walk on me and I carry him to frig for treats. Only problem is if he doesn't get treats fast enough he will nip me, telling me to hurry up with the treats.

I would say best things are bonding pouch, tent time, treat time. And I believe sometimes some gliders need a little push to get over a hump or fear they have and stops them from moving forward with bonding.

Sounds like she needs an open environment pouch

Open environment pouches help a lot with gliders that are fussy,crabby, lungy in the pouch. It gives them the ability to see what is going on around them.

I keep reading the title of your thread, maybe don't think of it as taming them. I don't know why but that terminology always bothers me.

It's really not a matter of them being tamed, it's a matter of building trust with them.

Trust that works both ways, they learn to trust you, you learn to trust them, and trust takes time.

I disagree with the breeder pouching isn't all that's needed, yes it's a process and takes time, but in that time you will need to get to know her on her terms and learn her language and what she is asking you for then do your best to accomadate her. If something isn't working for her, try to do that thing differently ( example the open environment pouch) Gliders react to what we do, if it's a negative reaction, change how you do that.

What is your bonding bag like ? does it have a mesh window? does it have a zipper? is she scared of the zipper sound? does she prefer the pouch be left open instead of closed?

Holding her until she's wore down may be working more against you instead of helping you. You want her to want to come onto you on her own terms because she wants to. Forcing her isn't going to make her want to.

If she is more content being in the pouch set the pouch in your lap and pet her in the pouch even if your in the tent.... I have several that prefer to stay in the pouch, some that prefer to be in my clothes, and a couple that really don't care if they are on me or not they like to be in the cage.

What does "bonded" look like to you ? paint us a picture of what bonded is to you, I'm not being sarcastic, everyone has a different idea of what bonded is.

what are your expectations or where do you think they should be at the 4 month mark?

None of my 6 gliders like to be held in my hand. It's a big no-no, and they let me know it. If they do get on my hand, it's their terms usually. They call the shots and if I'm lucky they are in a cuddly mood and I get to pet them lol think of it more as them holding you. :) you can try to hide the palm of your hand as much as possible. Approach with the top of your hand. It's less intimidating for them.

Thanks for the replies folks.

K, let me correct some of my terminology. When I speak of pouching, I'm referring to wearing the pouch around my neck. All of my pouches have a mesh which is worn against my body for scent and they always get apple in it just as a reward for the pouching. They all have zippers.

I train dogs as a hobby so some of that I try to use. The downside of that is I have a German shepherd and Saint Bernard in the house. All this to say none of my babies get to roam free unless I can easily rescue them and I can't do that yet so everything is highly controlled.

To that end...
I have bought a huge mosquito tent. I put the entire cage in and open the cage door to experiment with open door and semi open environment approaches.
I've also "escape proofed" a tiny part of the house for the same type of interactions but giving them a more realistic setting.
In both they will climb all over me. They will avoid any of my moving parts while I'm moving but will go anywhere while I'm not moving, including my hands (they usually try nawing on my thumb nail). Once bored with me they will begin exploring around. They fear all sounds of movement including each other's. (the tent causes sounds when the run across its floor material)

Leela, you mentioned trying different things to find and respond to their needs. I've been working along those lines. I had been told by the breeder, "just scoop them up and into the pouch when they're asleep". But as you've read, that's near impossible with the female and I hate stressing them to catch them so I engineered a way to hang their everyday pouch in their cage as a sleeping pouch which they used immediately. They would sleep in it all the time and when I wanted to remove them I simply zipped the pouch, pulled a stick that held the bag on the wall, and put it around my neck. The instant I did, Chloe would start lunging at the pouch walls. Eventually I free them back to the cage, rehang their pouch and they would climb in all cosy again.

I hand made a custom pouch with one full side made of screen. I hung it so they could always see me (I sit next to them in the living room where I work from home). Same thing, soon as I took it out, Chloe with get upset. Now the trust of my hand improved dramatically while I was doing that since I wasn't chasing them around the cage but Chloe started chewing through the thread for the screen and I had to abandon it.
At this moment I only take them if I can catch them sleeping based on lessons learned.
As for just holding Chloe, I agree it could work against me, it's just something I'm trying. I've tied it into her lunging so she gets to train me. If she lunges the pouch I take her out and pet her head for a half hour or so until she's calm and then I put her back in the pouch. She doesn't lung as much and settles down to nap where she wouldn't before but I only started that a couple days ago so it's way too early to tell. If it gives me access to her relaxing quietly in the bag then it may be worth it just to get access to the more desirable behaviour that can be positively reinforced. Like I said though it's early days yet. It would be great to not have to learn from my own mistakes through this.

Ive even toyed with the idea of the "spoiled child", focusing all of my bonding attention on Charlie and leaving Chloe out of any interaction time for a time to see if it gets a little more interest but that's just theory rattling around in my head at the moment. I am constantly experimenting with things to try to access their needs and the only thing I can come to is that Chloe doesn't want to be held in any way shape or forms. She doesn't fear hands or bags as long as they aren't being used to catch or or hold her so I'm trying to address myself to her fear of being held.

Personally I think she's traumatized from the process of capturing to pouch. I'm guilty for that but I have email after email to the breeder telling her how bad it scares them and how wrong it feels and being told to just keep it up.

Charlie is in the pouch with me right now as I type this, fast asleep in a ball. Chloe is asleep in the cage.

Ok I get you, and can tell your trying many different things and probably pretty frustrated.

First let address a couple things. They are about 4-5 months old, puberty in the glider world so there is that right off the bat lol so keep their age in mind. They will mellow as they reach maturity ( around a year year n a half )




I would def switch to the OE pouch maybe not the one I posted but one that is open on all sides, I will find better pics to show you. She really needs to get over her "pouch protectiveness" which is what most call it when a glider is crabby and lungy in pouches whether that is a bonding pouch ( I call bonding bags) or sleeping pouch ( the difference to me is the zipper the bag closes pouches don't )

A pouch with a mesh window isn't enough for pouch protectiveness, it really needs to be shallow, with limited obstruction of vision on the sides and top a deep pocket pouch is not going to help her get passed it even if it has a window.

for the bonding bag- I don't PUT mine in a bonding bag, I get the sleep pouch out hold the top closed until I'm ready then offer the open bonding bag to them and they walk in on their own if they won't I push the bottom of the sleep pouch up so the glider is at the top of the pouch and they go right into the bonding bag. I don't grab them or pick them up in the pouch. Use the pouches as tools but remember that is the gliders comfort zone so sticking hands in there kind of freaks em out.


Lunging and crabbing are really their best tools to try to scare away predators, in her mind your a big predator. For such lil furballs it tends to work well against the humans too lol

I have one that took me about 6 months to work through his pouch issues, now he's fine in any pouch I offer him. With him I started with a deep pouch and rolled it down so it looked like a boat ( with your dogs you'll want to do that in a tent ) I would just let him tuck his head down n stay in his boat in my lap, once in a while I would pet him or give him a treat, with the pouch so low and open he could see everything I was doing or see what made the noise that scared him etc.

Gradually I'd unroll one fold and let him get used to that, when he stopped having reactions to that I unrolled another fold gradually until he was in the deep pouch with no negative behavior. Zippers also scared him so as I was doing that I would open and close a zipper and let him see what I was doing. It took a long time, but it worked and he is probably my most handle-able adult gliders now. It also showed him I understood his fears.


There are some videos that might help you I'll dig em up in a minute.

I can assure you she's not traumatized but she is going to make you work for it My Leela's birthday is today, we brought her home in a sock and let me tell you when I finally got her out of that thing she shot out like a rocket and we spent the next 3 hours trying to get her. It was a nightmare but she got over it, and her fav place is in my shirt.... your at what I call a hurdle, you just have to figure out how to get you both over it. You said as soon as you get the bonding bag on you she starts, she can't see whats going on and the movement probably scares her, on the outside of the bonding bag cup your hand over them. Keep the bonding bag close to your body so it doesn't move n swing around so much or put it under your shirt.



tent time, when your in there with them, ignore them. Let them do their thing, read a book, bring your laptop or cell in with you do stuff online. This will 1. help keep you still and give you something to do, 2 gives them the freedom to explore you on their own terms without you trying to interact with them.

Get on a routine, they thriveeeee on routine just like toddlers. Get them out the same time every day.

Your a dog trainer do you use clickers? use the clicker with them too click it when your going to the cage, click it when you give them treats click it to reinforce good behavior etc...


So tomorrow, I suggest starting off with a clean slate. Forget about whats already occurred and begin again, fresh start. Address the pouch issue because I personally think that is the biggest thing standing in your way of "bonding" and until that'd addressed you may not see much progress.

Btw I don't free roam with mine and I have no other pets, there are to many things that can happen and the benefits don't out weigh the risks for me.







There is another one that is fantastic but you can only see it on facebook

These are just some examples of OE pouches, shallow and open.

manxx, sounds like you are doing bonding time and you have one glider making
good progress.
But depending on the glider some may take a LONG time to bond and trust.

Open pouch is fine, but remember crabbing is just their natural instinct to scare away something they think could be harmful. It took some of our gliders a LONG time to stop crabbing, and some stopped crabbing much faster. I think you should NOT worry about the crabbing.
We have Mary and scarface that still love to crab, mary will crab wildly but I can now pet her head, but she has lots more work needed. scarface crabs but I can pet her no problem. she will still take her treats and run and we have had her awhile. I can scoop her up now and put her on my shoulder and not get bit.

We got 3 rescued gliders about 3 years old, sweet pea will not bite, but is
scared to be on me and sometimes skittish of even being petted, but will NOT bite if I pick her up. on my bare skin (I think most gliders need extra time with bare skin) she will spread out her legs and hold on like she is scared to death of falling. but is much more relaxed on my clothes.

gizmo bonded quickly with lots of work with my wife.
Link took a long time after I started late with him.

With your gliders being skittish I think you just need to keep working with them, they are still very young, tent time, pouch time if she won't freak out, just more time with you so they can start trusting you. Lots of good videos on youtube.

it's not crabbing I was addressing. Of course they will crab now n then if startled or something. Honestly I only have one that will crab right now n she is still young, as soon as I open the pouch up and she sees me she stops.

These pouches are made specifically for gliders with the same behavior and it's known the behavior can stop very quickly with these pouches in as little as a day or two. Why not try to address it with a simple pouch change rather than letting it go on frustrating both the glider and the owner?

I also have rescues and have dealt with a lot of different issues with them and with breeders babies. I've seen the difference these pouches can make, and once that issue is addressed bonding progresses much easier. I'm not trying to sell her anything hell I'll even give directions how to make one.

I just don't understand why not promote something that is known to work and help. Why say keep doing what they are already doing when it isn't working? yes time will help but so can simple changes in set up.

There are lots of good videos on youtube, but there are a LOT of bad ones too which Is why I posted good ones relevant to her post so she can decide if those techniques will help her or not. Please note, you don't have to watch them, you don't have to use the advice, but if something sounds like it may help why not try it?

I'm open to anything. Don't mind the crabbing but the lunging and the biting hasn't let up in the slightest, well till I started the force holding her the other day.

So today I had Charlie for 7 hours. Watched TV with him, napped with him, went to the horse stables to pick up my wife with him. We were at it so long I had to give him fresh apple. A little crab here, a little crab there but nothing to write home about. He slept most of the time. I'll try something similar with Chloe. She's on me now and was lunging. I tried to comfort her by petting the pouch where she is and got teeth through the pouch.

I might try making her a shallow bonding pouch with full net walls. (I bought 2 yards of fleece and a yard of heavy pet netting).
I'm open to the other pouches you mentioned but I can't carry her around in one without an escape and in the tent she won't stay in anything. I could only use the OE bags in the cage. Funny thing though, they have a blanket now and they cover themselves up. (Well Charlie not so much now be she does) but a shallow OE is crazy simple to make so...

I will however try to avoid catching her while she's awake. She's freaky fast and darts all over the place trying to dodge capture. It freaks them both out. Right now I catch her asleep, she wakes, protests, I pet her and put her in her bonding pouch and leave her be.

Chainsaw, thanks for the replies, sounds like a valid assessment. Charlie will let me pet him some, he's just not ready for cuddles. Chloe is the challenge and not one that's easy to take for a novice at these guys.

Oe pouch strictly for in the cage yes, the open pouch rolled down for in the tent to gradually get her used to deep pouches and bonding bags in contained space in case she does come out.

does she lunge when you give treats or just in the sleep pouch or bonding bag?

If you or your wife is handy with a sewing machine there are some awesome safe sewing videos for cage accessories and bonding bags I can give you.

ps sorry for addressing you as a female lol


this is what I used for my pouch protective one took a few weeks but it seriously helped him especially with being in bonding bags

Lol... don't worry about the male/female thing. When it comes to Gliders and sewing, I'm the one.
That pic was worth a lot, I'll have to see how I employ that in the tent.

Since we were talking about pouch fear I got the idea to flip the bag over so she could see.
I just shot this;


youtu.be/cNgOawoQokc

Hi Manxx,

I saw your video and wanted to throw in my 2 cents about bonding pouches. I adopted my first glider from Pocket Pets as well, along with 2 of their bonding pouches. Like you, I have a crabber and biter, and also a very active little girl. I don't mind the crabbing so much. I feel it's her way of communicating. And fortunately the biting is much less than it was when I got her. Nevertheless, she has managed to chew through the seams of both PP pouches and escape, once while we were in the car which was stressful beyond belief. I mention this as a warning and to also suggest another pouch that seems more durable. Etsy has some beautiful ones, with strong zippers and seams, and they have a great selection.

www.etsy.com

I watched your video again, this time with sound, so I learned that you're already familiar with how creative and resourceful these little ones can be. I've actually thought of posting a question here, asking if anyone's heard of a totally glider-proof pouch.

Hey Tia, as mentioned in the second update to this thread (I know I'm long winded) I made a custom pouch for them with a whole side as window using the same netting they use for soft dog carrier satchels. Neither of them could chew through the netting but she did a number on the sticking and I ran the sewing machine back and fourth over the stitch line like 3 times, fully anticipating she would try.

Tip, if you ever want to give them the greatest toy ever, tie a piece of string into the craziest knots ever and see if you can out knot their ability to figure it out.

gmorning, i haven't had coffee yet so bare with me on typos and such lol

I've never had a pp bonding bag or pouch so I'm curious, are they single layer pouches? is there a visible seem inside?

Most of us use a double layer bonding bag. The double layers can be fleece on fleece ( with pet mesh window ) flannel on fleece with window, cotton on fleece with window.



Flannel and Cotton are much lighter for warmer climates BUT both of these materials fray if not sewn properly. There are two awesome videos for bonding bags both are in 3 video parts

The first is flyingmarsupials she also has videos on how to make other cage accessories ( sleep pouches, bridges, corner pieces, vines etc... ) you can go to her channel on youtube to see the rest, sewing isn't my strong suite but I can make what I need because of these videos.





The second video, is a little better for the zipper part, but same as far as double layer bonding bag I love this video but if you have small children maybe watch it when they aren't around there is some cussing going on





A totally glider proof pouch, I don't think there is a total glider proof cage let alone pouch because humans are involved. What I do suggest is to examine the bonding bags every time before you put the gliders in them. Check the seems, check around the window flip them inside out and look for any wear or weak spots.

You can of course buy all this stuff there are tons of vendors but the OP is in Canada and shipping is superrrrrrrrrr expensive to ship up there. I love Etsy and vend on there myself, but make sure the bonding bags are double layer and safely sewn, ask the vendor questions before you buy.

Also for chewers you can try putting other things in the bonding bag that they can chew instead of the bonding bag, plastic drinking straws, a plastic bracelet, plastic charms, eucalyptus branch etc as long as it's safe chuck it in there but again check them regularly if they get to chew up and rough edges pull them out and put new ones in.

the video you shared, yep single layer bonding bag, you will def want a double layer pouch with her more protection for her and your hands.

The seems are hidden in double layer pouches which is much safer for their nails, the mesh windows are double layer as well giving you more protection from her teeth.

They are a much sturdier made pouch that will last much longer than a single layer pouch especially with gliders that don't want to be in them.

With Cloe I think I would work with her in the bonding bag in the tent and leave the top unzipped to see how she does with an open top instead of closed, it may help settle her down. I have one female that when the mood strikes her she will act the same way, as soon as the pouch is opened she calms right down, she is one that prefers her freedom and won't leave my body unless in the tent. She's also one thats always had an OE pouch with her previous owner she is ok in normal sleeping pouches but doesn't like to be zipped in a bonding bag. Some times they also want OUT of the bonding bag to relieve themselves, mine will come out pee n poo then go back in and settle down. So if your going right from the sleeping in the cage to bonding bag, maybe she needs to potty and doesn't want to in the bonding bag, just a thought

Those are great vid Leela, thanx. I did wonder as it looked like many of the pouches were doubled so good to see.
I'm one of those folks who can look at an object and see it with the seams opened up and unfolded flat. The PP pouch you saw is made from a single piece of cloth, folded over and stitched down the sides. Having the inner lining material will defiantly add some protection for the seams!

On the topic of Chloe's reactions to the pouch and the problem of grabbing them, hanging one of their pouches on the side of the bars had become combersome so the pouch I had made (that Chloe ruined), was made with the bigger window I mentioned but also with a top zipper. You need to block access to top corners when you do that so I had shoe lace ringlets in the top corners on wither side with little thumb clips. The zipper was a big deal because the PP pouch zipper is plastic junk that jams easily and is very hard to close with one hand so I got a metal zipper that would zip shut very easily (with blocked corner access I mentioned). I would open it and clip the bag to the cage. They would climb in and when I wanted to carry them I just zipped it shut, removed it and clipped it onto a neck strap.
It was with this pouch I just opened the pouch in the tent. They both would freely go in and out of it still around my neck. But she was still given to attacking the sides when I zipped up and moved. Last nights little, test with the pouch window facing out seemed to address her fear and she stopped attacking. After a while she calmed down so I'm wondering if the ability to see what's coming is all she was really after like you mentioned earlier. More tests will tell the tale. One lesson I noticed.. the pouch has about 2 inches of bottom before you get to the window. Chloe was hadding in the lower 2 inches unless there was something that she was concerned about when she would just move forward a bit, take a peek and then sink back into hiding.

Today I'll try smearing some apple sauce on the netting for her to lick off. She's a little pig so should make her really happy about the pouch.

Thank you, Leela and Manxx, for the toy and pouch suggestions. As mentioned, the PP pouch is a single piece of cloth. The seams are definitely visible, but then again, my glider has chewed through seams that are hidden. The Etsy pouches can be ordered double or triple layered, which is helpful for protection as well as warmth in cooler weather.

careful with triple layer that's a bit excessive , gliders can and do over heat and die in pouches, factor in your body heat and how many glider are in the pouch and what material all the layers are.

If your talkin 2 layers of fleece and a layer of cotton it's still going to get mighty warm in there if you have 2 or more gliders even with mesh windows.

I'd stick with 2 layers, if it' that cold out that 3 layers is needed then leave em home where its a more controlled warmth.

For me it' usually to hot to take mine places unless were at place with Ac. I have a pure mesh pouch with a cotton shell and even that is not enough to keep them cool so they stay home most of the time unless it's a vet trip and quick lunch.