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  |  SuggieSpoiler
Super Glider
 FL, USA
278 Posts
| Jul 24 2012 : 04:37:28 PM    |
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So I am thinking of doing the original BML diet. I was going to do the Modified LeadBeaters Mix, but then decided to look up the original diet. So I was just wondering the Pros and Cons of BML? Thanks in advance! 
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|  | Candy
Zippy Glidershorts
USA
4636 Posts
| Jul 24 2012 : 05:27:08 PM   |
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Pro - BML (Bourbon's Modified Leadbeaters) has been used longer that most other recognized glider diets. You can get all the ingredients at the local grocery store except the Repcal Herpivite and Repcal Calcium which are available in most pet stores (reptile department).
Con - you must use only the short list of fruits and frozen mixed vegetables with this diet because these have higher phosphorus and are needed to balance the amount of calcium included in the recipe.
Here is the recipe and specific instructions for the BML feeding plan.
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugargliders/bml/leadbeat.html
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| LuckyGlider
Zippy Glidershorts
  TX, USA
5081 Posts
| Jul 25 2012 : 09:26:01 AM |
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You could also ask Bourbon (Bourbon H. on Facebook) about the baby BML diet. That's the one without the herptivite. Those reptile vitamins have a lot of iron - over 50 ppm - which, based on a few studies I read, is way high for gliders but probably ok for lizards which it what it is made for. I think that's why Bourbon came out with the "baby" BML. I am NOT talking about the RepCal. The BML diet needs that or else it is completely upside-down. So the RepCal is OK - it's just calcium with D3.
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| SuggieSpoiler
Super Glider
FL, USA
278 Posts
| Jul 25 2012 : 10:26:40 AM |
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Okay thanks guys! I will look into it. Maybe I could put a little less Herptivite in it or none at all and put a different type of vitamins that are ment for sugar gliders in it. I don't know. Like I said I'll look into it. :) But thanks again!
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| JeremyLexie
Fuzzy Wuzzy
USA
1190 Posts
| Jul 25 2012 : 04:26:33 PM |
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[quote]Originally posted by LuckyGlider
You could also ask Bourbon (Bourbon H. on Facebook) about the baby BML diet. That's the one without the herptivite. Those reptile vitamins have a lot of iron - over 50 ppm - which, based on a few studies I read, is way high for gliders but probably ok for lizards which it what it is made for. I think that's why Bourbon came out with the "baby" BML. I am NOT talking about the RepCal. The BML diet needs that or else it is completely upside-down. So the RepCal is OK - it's just calcium with D3.
Baby BML is ONLY for tube feeding and only omits the wheat germ. There is no proof that BML has too much iron, if there is please show me and I can forward it to Bourbon.
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| LuckyGlider
Zippy Glidershorts
TX, USA
5081 Posts
| Jul 25 2012 : 06:24:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JeremyLexie
[quote]Originally posted by LuckyGlider
You could also ask Bourbon (Bourbon H. on Facebook) about the baby BML diet. That's the one without the herptivite. Those reptile vitamins have a lot of iron - over 50 ppm - which, based on a few studies I read, is way high for gliders but probably ok for lizards which it what it is made for. I think that's why Bourbon came out with the "baby" BML. I am NOT talking about the RepCal. The BML diet needs that or else it is completely upside-down. So the RepCal is OK - it's just calcium with D3.
Baby BML is ONLY for tube feeding and only omits the wheat germ. There is no proof that BML has too much iron, if there is please show me and I can forward it to Bourbon.
Yes, my bad jeremielexie - it's the (iron-packed) wheat germ that's taken out of the Baby BML diet - not the (iron-packed) herptivite. I forgot it was the wheat germ - thank you for the correction.
I suggested Brittany speak to Bourbon about that version of the diet, and I still suggest it.
Bourbon actually called me this Spring to talk diets. Someone with a sick glider was asking her about LGRS and since they were asking about our diet she asked them to call us. So I am trying to return that courtesy here. She rang me to give me a heads up. She is very frank and chatty so I think it would be a good experience for Brittany to speak with Bourbon. Every time I speak to her, we end up on the phone for like an hour. The time before that she was sharing her research on so-called "mock mating wounds" and treatments. She also has a pretty thick skin being a long-time veteran of the glider community so I don't think the subject of diet ingredients is radioactive or something she'd shy away from. So go ahead and contact her.
And now that I am citing another article below on the subject of iron I am also suggesting that Brittany contact her vet on the subject in addition to Bourbon.
Speaking of wheat germ, the Baby BML without the wheat germ is interesting because pound for pound wheat germ has more iron in it than most any other naturally occurring food. You can look that up on nutritiondata.com or the USDA database to see. Between the herptivite and the wheat germ the "original" BML diet is, as a point of fact, packed with iron compared to any other suggie diet I am aware of. Any.
I did write a post on this topic of iron some time back.
I also wrote a disclaimer saying that it was for diet nuts only... 
But since Brittany is actually asking for pros and cons I guess this is all on topic and fair game, right?
The question I ask in that post (see link below) is: "is it OK to feed your gliders HUMAN DOSES of iron" (paraphrasing myself).
Sure I would not call THAT comment proof of anything! To be more clear, I think maybe calculating the iron dosages from wheat germ and herptivite fed to gliders and comparing that to suggested human dosages (vs a glider that weighs like one one thousandth of an adult human) - that has not much to do with proof in my book but has a heck of a lot to do with common sense.
Keep in mind that when the BML diet was published on the internet it was absent any nutritive analysis. So in the beginning anyway, the amount of iron being offered was not openly contemplated nor openly advertised. But someone along the way posted an analysis here on GG in the nutrition section if you want to look at it.
(That was one of the reasons we took pains to research and publish the nutritive properties of the LGRS suggie soup recipe. I mean NONE of the so-called popular diets had any analysis published with them. Sorry, I find that kinda shocking. Don't you? I doubt the calculations are perfect, but as laypeople with the help of a few vets, we did the best we could to provide a full disclosure that could easily be shared with vets for people contemplating the use of the recipe. Honestly, I don't think we should feed any recipe touted as "good" without showing the nutritive analysis to our vets. That too is just common sense.)
For everyone's reference that post on iron is here:
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=25984
Regarding the very big word "proof" I am not sure we can call it that but in that post above four scholarly articles are duly cited on the subject of iron as footnotes.
In one of those articles, BML is compared to a few other diets and the iron is a central theme. That first research article was written by a vet and I think all of the other citations have doctors as authors too. I think over the years that research may have been called to question as being incomplete by some glider enthusiasts, or even BML defenders, but the research exists nonetheless.
I have read that item over and over and at the very least it is not some internet anecdote or folklore and since it was written by a vet, I guess it's the closest we are going to get to "proof" unless we all want to kick in a few thousand bucks a piece and commission a university study on the subject.
Honestly most of the time we conjure the "proof" word these discussions end up in a stalemate. But I don't think so in this case. I scoured dozens and dozens of articles and research papers on the subject of iron before I posted that. At the very least it's worthy of having your vet take a look.
I'd recommend for anyone who truly is searching for answers to actually read those articles and then post their own comments. At least there would be a basis for spirited debate and the argument can be on scholarly work, not just *pure* opinion.
In that iron post I also did a simple comparison of the PPM levels of iron in different diets. I mean I think anyone who cares about this subject should take a look and ask your vet what he/she thinks.
To me the comparison begs the "human dose" question which is probably worth posing to your vet. Not sure he or she would need "proof" if you simply ask: "Is it OK to feed my glider human dosages of iron?"
As a "default" / "been around for a long time diet," BML is a pretty good and solid mix. Personally, I'd lose the herptivite and the wheat germ but that's just my opinion of course. A veterinarian's opinion I am certain is more important than mine (or Bourbon's for that matter). A vet with a degree in nutrition would be best of course. Remember to offer the nutritive analysis when asking that question.
Ironically, the "L" in BML stands for Leadbetters if you are interested in an actual "original" diet. It is actually a basis for a bunch of diets like BML and others over the years and some of the zoos still use it as *part* of their diets. Admittedly, even LGRS Suggie Soup uses *some* of those ingredients.
I would be very interested in what newer members have to say on this subject after they talk to their vets and read up on it a little.
Edited by - LuckyGlider on Jul 25 2012 06:25:39 PM
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| SuggieSpoiler
Super Glider
FL, USA
278 Posts
| Jul 25 2012 : 11:12:39 PM |
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Thank you so much! Very informationative. I'm not sure if I will call Bourbon only because I am only looking for Pros and Cons. I'm also researching other diets. I'm kind of just exploring a bit before I choose a specific diet. But thank you so much! It really helped.
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Original BML diet Pros and Cons?
