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Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: Technical Q - Soy Products
When: 6:08 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 24.48.198.232
-

I was just sent this page and was asked "what does this mean? Does this mean that soy substitutes will actually kill our gliders? Tofu etc??"
Okay technominds lets talk !!! This is from an article that was just published May of this year.
<a href=http://203.23.131.2/nexus/soydangers.html>http://203.23.131.2/nexus/soydangers.html</a>



Follow Ups:

Posted by: Lisa
Subject: soy
When: 7:11 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 207.175.52.71

Bourbon, I skimmed the article. It sounds as if there is a concern here, but at the same time there can always be found articles saying that foods we eat are bad for us. We're damned if we do and damned if we dont smile My opinion is to keep soy products to a minimum, but then again, many gliders cant stand the stuff anyhow. Tofu is just plain gross and soy burgers often have added onion or garlic for flavoring. Who knows??



Posted by: KarenE, KarenElfrank@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 7:24 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 152.163.207.53

Well now I've had my Sunday afternoon of reading wink
By the time I got to the end of the article (?) I had forgotten what I read before. Soooooo, even if my babies liked tofu, their days of consuming the product would be over. Why take any chances? It seems that the few people who feed tofu to their gliders had a problem keeping it from going bad before it was used up - why? - because they didn't eat it themselves.
Well, we don't either so I don't have that problem. I have offered it once and mine wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
The bottom line for us - none of us, human or glider, are going to eat it raspberry



Posted by: Ms. Shell, bhsinc@uswest.net
Subject: none
When: 8:56 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 216.160.232.185

I wasn't going to say anything until I found my book, so I'd at least have something to back me up here. Here's my take on soy and canola. Why are they used? Why is the government pushing this stuff? Because it's cheap... cheap to grow, cheap to make. Let me try to explain it like this... not the best analogy, but its how it was told to me, and it makes sense. If you were a drug dealer and you had a pound of pure cocaine, would it make more sense to add say flour or something to it to sell it to 100 people or leave it pure and only sell to 10? Soy is a filler and a preservative. I actually stay away from canloa more than I do soy (gotta have my doritos raspberry )
Have you ever heard of a canola plant? No, good reason for that... canola actually comes from rapeseed. Because "they" didnt like the sound of it, "they" came up with canola. Rapeseed is a member of the mustard family... used to make mustard gas in chemical warfare! Scary stuff 'eh?
I have tried several web searches on this, I cant find much, either because this is all wrong, or there aren't many people out there that wanna speak up. I will find my book tho, and let you all know who wrote it. I'm not saying this is the all true, just that when I read it, it made enough sense to me to research further and stop using some products. Sorry for rambling! smile




Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 10:19 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 152.163.194.212

Truly a frightening article. It makes me very happy that I don't typically use much in the way of soy products. I definitely won't be feeding any tofu to my little guys - not that I have in the past smile



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: Karen
When: 10:27 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 24.48.198.246

see if this one is easier to read, thanks M for sending this one to me..
<a href=http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0NAH/2_29/53929987/p1/article.jhtml>http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0NAH/2_29/53929987/p1/article.jhtml</a>



Posted by: KarenE, KarenElfrank@aol.com
Subject: Bourbon
When: 11:11 PM, 01 Oct 2000
IP: 205.188.197.28

Thanks. I have bookmarked this one and will try to digest tomorrow. Don't believe I have enough alert brain cells left for tonight raspberry



Posted by: Gliderlover
Subject: none
When: 11:35 PM, 02 Oct 2000
IP: 24.65.233.144

I have read it over and I see many holes. Most of the studies are done on soy beans and things change drastically when it is turned into tofu. I use tofu once in a while and I believe it is safe, it is a good source of protein and nutrients. I can imagine in extremely large quantities that tofu could be potentially harmful, but who feeds their gliders a lot of tofu? Its not the cheapest and not the easiest to keep. I sometimes put it in my leadbeaters so it is frozen and preserved. I would still say a little tofu every once in a while is good if not essential for gliders.



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: a lot of holes.. hmmm
When: 5:19 AM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 24.48.198.166

it don't take a lot with a glider, when you think about it, we are 600 times their size, I believe if i go back over that diet I will see it is a little more than once in a while. but let me see if I read this right..
I am going to use the second article since it is easier for some to read. The other one really is the best since it gets into the real tecnical aspects of it. but alas. It may be difficult for some to understand.
I believe they were very distict when they said in both articles the 4 main problems.
"Yet a few scientists think the coronation of soy as a miracle food is premature.
They claim that while some soyfoods offer distinct health benefits, others pose
health risks, particularly to people who consume large amounts of soy. Critics cite four main potential dangers associated with eating too much soy or too much of certain kinds of soyfoods:
One, soyfoods can disrupt the functioning of the thyroid gland:

two, soyfoods can interfere with the digestion of proteins:

three, they contain substances that rob the body of minerals: and

four, soy's isoflavones may upset hormone balance."
I do belive they did say can and may but they have the scientific evidence to back up their claims.
when they said" They wrote an article for the September 1995 issue of Health Freedom News--a publication of the nonprofit health advocacy group called National Health Federation in Monrovia, Calif.--in which they detailed these charges and cited dozens of scientific studies."

I know how much you apprecitae "published works"
and of course it isn't all soy foods but they did say "They see more problems with nonfermented soyfoods: tofu, soymilk, texturized soy protein, and soy protein isolate. " I do believe the word tofu is stated right there. and of course "Brian R. Clement, director of the Hippocrates Health Institute, a raw foods, vegan clinic in West Palm Beach, Fla., says, "People come to us unshakeable in their belief that tofu, soy burgers, soy this, soy that are all good for you. They're not." after all he is only a director of a vegan clinic.
although there are researchers that say other wise they will not say it is all "poppycock" after all we are talking about gliders right, and gliders are animals.. so lets look at what they say regarding the animals..

"While high levels of these inhibitors have triggered what appear to be premalignant lesions in the pancreases of animals, low levels may have cancer-fighting and cancer-preventing abilities." so does that mean that while the gliders will be able to fight the cancer, it will produce lesions on the pancreas? Now there is a safe trade off.. what they are saying after 30 years is that still..." What's unknown is the level to consume for optimal health." so how much is too much for a glider? Of only 4 ounces?
Scientists have linked infertility to the soy diet of animals such as cheetah and quail. For example, researchers at the Children's Hospital Medical Center in Cincinnati, Ohio, analyzed the diet of cheetahs living in zoos to figure out why the animals experienced infertility. In the journal Gastroenterology in 1987, the researchers theorized that the cheetahs' phytoestrogenrich soy diet was probably a major factor." and we know that cheetahs and quail are much bigger than our gliders. so is there cause for concerns? yes they beliveve so, why would we want to subject our gliders to possible slow deaths when clearly there is controversy amound major medical facilities. I did say possible, but isn't that like using our gliders lives in a game of russian roulette? Here we have a product that scientist, nutritionalist and researchers believe may have ill effects on human organs, do they trust this for long term? it don't seem so, even the ones that advocate and believe that Tofu is a healthy part of the diet is not ignoreing the fact tht there MAY be adverse effcts, that they still don't know what amount is healthy for consumption, so how do we break it down to a "little bit" for our gliders? Even the australians believe that more research needs to be done. I personally think there is too much room for the health problems that we can't cure in our gliders to take those particular risks, and this is only my opinion. With the medical knowledge that we have in comparing humans to gliders alone, steates that this may be an issue for a long time to come. Would I be willing to use my glider as a guinea pig with so much data stating otherwise? I think not. In the first article it stated "In spite of poor results in animal feeding trials, the soy industry has sponsored a number of studies
designed to show that soy protein products can be used in human diets as a replacement for traditional foods." That sentence alone tells me that soy is NOT good for animals, and they have already proved that. As much as I would love to have my glider as big as I am and human (in spite of how she acts)I still would follow with what they said regarding the animal studies.



Posted by: IrishCreme
Subject: none
When: 12:24 PM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 209.71.85.45


Tofu is an added source of protein and other nutrients in many gliders diets... fact stated.

But my major question is to what extent are tofu and other soy products a part of the diet. Is it the major source of protein or just an added source once in a while?

For those of you that are using tofu for a source consistantly, please take a close look at the facts stated in these articles (and Im sure many others). The facts are based on clinical scientific data gathered through completed studies and many ongoing ones. The facts are stated clearly - soy products in the diet of the studied animals is beleived to have harmful effects on the body's digestive and reproductive systems.
The animals used in the study are much larger than our gliders are - therefore -
amount consumed that is assumed to cause problems is definately going to be different. A 3 pound meal given to a 90 pound feline is going to convert to a dramatically small amount safely given to a glider.

For those of you using soy products only once in a while - please be sure to only give a small amount at a time and carefully monitor (not that you dont already) your gliders.


As always, my advise is to offer a large variety of foods - but offer them in moderation.



Posted by: Gliderlover
Subject: none
When: 1:00 PM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 24.65.233.144

I always offer tofu in moderation. I have read the article and what was written, and I know what they are talking about. I have heard a few of these concerns before over the year. But tofu is not meant to be a major part of any animals diet and not a person either. If you weigh the pros and cons it pretty much comes out equal but I would still give in moderation just to be careful. Many of the facts stated in the article are over exxagerated of course, but it is good to let people know of dangers in any food. I again would have to say that it is not needed to take tofu out of a gliders diet or even your diet (if you can eat the stuff) but moderation is the key. ;)



Posted by: IrishCreme
Subject: none
When: 8:57 PM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 209.71.57.146

*By moderation in my last post, I meant just as a treat every once in a while and not just a little bit daily.

Ok saying that, let me state my stand a bit clearer on this topic
The pros and cons are not anywhere near being equal where soy products are concerned. And the facts that are being documented by these studies are by no means being exaggerated to any extent. They are simply stating the facts.

So, for those of you that have found an adequate diet for their gliders without adding tofu or another soy product as a source of protein great job! Do yourselves and your glider a favor and dont add it.

For those of you who use it every once in a while as an additional source of protein do your research and check up on some of the new ideas and information now available. Keep in mind that the animals used in all of the studies are much larger (by weight) than a glider is. The concerns that are being brought up by this new data are real ones and make no mistake, they are major ones.

For those of you who always offer tofu as a source of protein dont let the researched data jump up and bite you - of course after we read the horror story as a Real Story.


Just to toss a few things out for any who care to do a little research on their own -
For instance - If you were to take a 90 pound feline and feed it a meal say 3 pounds (in weight) of a soy based product and this were to be considered a safe amount to feed without causing any adverse effects on the animal.
Just exactly how would you figure out the amount that is considered safe for a glider???




Posted by: Gliderlover
Subject: none
When: 11:15 PM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 24.65.233.144

Irish Creme
I dont like using chicken at all but my gliders really love the flavor. I prefer to give my gliders protein through insects since that is closer to their natural source of protein (same, but different kinds of insects). I dont see the need for much more protein considering sugar gliders naturally dont get much protein in their wild diet, except for insect season. They eat high sugar and carbohydrate substances like acacia gum, eucalptus sap and honeydew. During the winter they sometimes do without protein and survive on the occasional insect and pollen. So to give them a closer to natural diet they would need a large quantity of insects (considering that we can provide them year round). And fruits and vegetables.



Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 11:24 PM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 205.188.192.179

Please keep in mind that your gliders are not "in the wild". Wild gliders deal with temperature changes which cause changes in their metabolism. Your gliders have a constant spring/summer which means they are more active and need more protien. Insects alone don't provide enough calcium and again, in the wild, gliders eat more than insects. They eat small animals as well as insects, and of course they don't tend to live as long due to predation, illness, etc. As for tofu being more easily digested than meat protien, judging by the studies posted, soy isn't particularly digestable unless it is fermented, which tofu isn't. The studies also state that soy reduces the bodies ability to absorb other nutrients. I definitely wouldn't use it as a daily source of protien.




Posted by: IrishCreme
Subject: AU temps.
When: 11:58 PM, 03 Oct 2000
IP: 209.71.85.248

Australia, for one fact... does not experience a "winter" as we do. The temperatures there all year round support insect life.
Yes, there is a difference in available bugs, and the overall distribution of bugs - BUT there are always bugs available.
It is VERY RARE that AU gets a cold spell that will eliminate the bug population. And if the bugs were to migrate (which is fairly easy to do, being a bug) the gliders would migrate also for simple sake of survival, right?

Gliders do not only eat bugs either. They also eat small vertabrae animals...
Like lizards - which are abundant. Many of the native critters that they would have the opportunity to eat - breed in early summer and the offspring would therefore hatch end of summer. (approx. incubation being 60-90 days) When cooler weather arrives, these reptiles would naturally be an easy target for a glider due to them being coldblooded.
Or mice - which just so happen to be a large problem in AU at the moment. These little buggers breed all year round and the smaller ones are not even a close match for a hungry glider.
Not to mention the many, many other edible "proteins" available.
(None of which include soy products, I might add)


This info was gathered and geared towards the husbandry of reptiles - but the facts are the same, regardless of the species.
<a href=http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/porton/350/climate.html>http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/porton/350/climate.html</a>



Posted by: Ms. Shell, bhsinc@uswest.net
Subject: Huh?
When: 12:22 AM, 04 Oct 2000
IP: 216.160.232.185

Vegatable protien is more easily digested?!
Okay, tofu is soybean curd. Right?
Soybean oil and soybean products contain a toxic biochemical called phytohemaglutinin... lets break that word up... phyto= which comes from plants, hema= blood, glutinin=a vegetable protien "glue". PHG is a large protien molecule that has been proven to be specific in its ability to agglutinate human blood. Agglutinate means to glue, adhere to, or combine in a MASS.
Soy oil interferes with normal digestion. It produces gas and upsets body chemisty. The effects of PHG are cumulative. The quantity and length of exposure are key factors.



Posted by: IrishCreme
Subject: leadbeaters alterations.
When: 12:40 AM, 04 Oct 2000
IP: 209.71.85.36

GliderLover -
My question is why would you use something that could possibly cause medical problems?
Ok now - I simply have to ask this... who told you that chicken was an unnatural protein??? That is an unsupportable statement.
The part of a chicken (or any animal) considered 'meat' is muscle. Muscle is made up of protein molecules. This is one of the most basic forms of natural protein - any textbook states this.

"Proteins are essential ingredients in all aspects of cell structure and function."
(Microbiology, An Introduction - 6th edition)



Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 12:49 AM, 04 Oct 2000
IP: 205.188.195.47

Thanks Ms. Shell, I'll never look at tofu the same way again raspberry



Posted by: Cruising Gliders
Subject: Chicken not natural?
When: 2:18 AM, 04 Oct 2000
IP: 152.163.205.8

Sorry, but how can chicken not be a natural source of protein. I thought only things man made were considered unnatural. Guess it shows how old I am as in Jr. High Home Ecos. we were taught meat was part of the 4 basic food groups. Have times changed so much that meat is no longer considered to have protein? I think not. Guess I don't understand why any one would want to take the smallest chance of harming their glider. There are too many ways to furnish them with protein to have to worry about the known or questionable. Somebody please, explain why a person would chance this? My brain must be too small to understand the logic. By the way my gliders and I hate the stuff! It stinks.



Posted by: IrishCreme
Subject: predator/prey
When: 12:25 PM, 04 Oct 2000
IP: 209.71.86.4

I can easily see gliders being prey for many species of lizards in AU - especially aboreal monitors. And even the many species of snakes that are found throughout the region.
But there are also many species whos offspring are very small and could easily become a meal for a glider also, I would think.
For instance, a bearded dragon (in captivity) hatches from its egg at 3 1/2-4 inches long (s-t) - the body itself being only half the total length. They do not grow at extreme rates and would be available throughout the winter months. This would only be a snack. Gliders are relatively much faster than a hatching also and therefore could catch these prey. Reptiles spend most of their daytime hours basking and if needed, they would climb to whatever height needed to - as long as its accessible. As soon as nightfall comes though, they may be apt to find a close-by spot for the night; therefore putting them at more of a risk where a glider is concerned.

As for the mice, I was under the impression that they have spread throughout AU. Not that there's a problem everywhere - but that they could be found everywhere (within reason). And this would make them an available animal food source should the opportunity arise. If this is not the case, I apologise.

Unfortunately, the natural vegetable food sources a glider would consume arent available worldwide. Therefore we must substitute with similiar foods that are relatively available, hense fruits & veggies.

BUT
My point is simply that there are many, many natural sources of animal protein that a glider has the opportunity to consume and given that opportunity will consume in the wild.
Temperatures in AU do not drop drastically enough to eliminate the available animal protein sources. (The statement above, regarding this, is false.)


Our gliders are not in the wild - they are captive bred and raised. They will not be released into the wild. They are caged. And will remain so as pets. They do not have the opportunity to hunt for their food. They must eat what is given to them or go hungry. Go hungry or go without essential nutrients.





Posted by: Moderator
Subject: none
When: 10:37 PM, 04 Oct 2000
IP: 24.147.185.201

This thread has been HEAVILY moderated.
We have removed an interesting discussion about gliders diets in australia and started it afresh to keep two topics separate. We also removed parts of this thread that were conveging on an old argument between gliderlover (also known as Angie) and Bourbon. That discussion was out of place. We apologise if this moderation offended anyone.



Posted by: Naarah, Sterling_925@yahoo.com
Subject: Soy
When: 10:32 AM, 06 Oct 2000
IP: 199.179.191.52

From the gist of what I've read, you're going to ban tofu from a bunch of hype. I'm a vegetarian. I've been one for two years. And I've never felt healthier in my life. I'm not saying everyone else has to be one. But I truly believe that soy products are beneficial to our health. If you're going to read one article on how it's bad for you, then do the research equally. There are some wonderful cookbooks out there (the SoyFood Cookbook is one) that not only gives delicous recipies, but talks about the nutritional benefits of soy.

If you're worried about it going bad, try this technique (it also adds wonderful texture to tofu). Chop your tofu in to approx. 1" squares. Put it in several small tupperware type containers. Fill the containers 3/4 the way with water (enough to cover the tofu, but not to the top of the container). Freeze the tofu. Defrost as necessary. This doesn't take any of the vitamins or nutrients out, but it does keep it longer and adds a nice texture (the tofu will expand when it freezes, and when you defrost it, it has retained "air bubbles." This is often done to create a "chicken-like" texture.)

I am a glider owner, and my glider eats the same tofu I do. I'm not afraid to feed her what I know is healthy for me.

Sincerely,
Naarah
<a href=http://naarahsark.homestead.com>http://naarahsark.homestead.com</a>



Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 2:08 PM, 06 Oct 2000
IP: 205.188.199.34

Yet another link regarding possible dangers with soy: <a href=http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_00609_soy_feature.html>http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020_00609_soy_feature.html</a>

and another: <a href=http://www.gerson.org/healing/articles/nl_soy.html>http://www.gerson.org/healing/articles/nl_soy.html</a>

There are many substances that are healthy in small amounts and yet become dangerous in large amounts. At what point do the benefits of soy become dangerous? Scientists don't know yet. Do you really want your glider to be the guinea pig that determines the difference? While I wouldn't go so far as to ban soy, I also wouldn't take risks with something as small as a sugarglider. I do strongly feel that trying to make a pet that is naturally an omnivore or carnivore into a vegetarian is flat out wrong.




Posted by: Naarah, Sterling_925@yahoo.com
Subject: To Maria
When: 4:30 PM, 06 Oct 2000
IP: 199.179.188.84

Just because I'm a vegitarian doesn't mean I force my animals to be. I own and rescue a number of critters, including dogs and ferrets, both definately carnivores. And while they enjoy the occasional blueberry or raisen as a snack, I do not force that on them. Nor would I force it on my glider, who I feed freeze-dried insects, among other things. The hype behind soy is no different than anything else. You have to look at who the information is coming from. Is it coming from doctors, and nutritionists, or the meat-industry? I'm not saying eat soy everyday. I don't. I'm just not going to be swayed by hype.

Naarah and starshine the smile



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: none
When: 6:55 PM, 06 Oct 2000
IP: 216.248.35.252

Naahra, cool name...

okay I would have to say yes, we must look at where the information is coming from

scientists have reported other potential
problems with soy In this decade two women--Mary G. Enig, Ph.D., a fellow at the
American College of Nutrition and a nutritional biochemist in Silver Spring, Md.,
and Sally W. Fallon, editor of the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation Journal,
which reports on the dietary habits of indigenous peoples--sought to make sense
of these studies.

After reviewing a few of the studies on the adverse effects of soy, Alan R. Gaby,
M.D., a nutrition professor at Bastyr University in Kenmore, Wash., says, "I
certainly think caution is reasonable. Soy is probably beneficial in moderate
amounts, possibly harmful in larger amounts."

Brian R. Clement, director of the Hippocrates Health Institute, a raw foods, vegan
clinic in West Palm Beach, Fla., says, "People come to us unshakeable in their
belief that tofu, soy burgers, soy this, soy that are all good for you. They're not."
Clement says his clinic staff has found it three times more difficult to bring the
blood chemistry of people on a heavy soy diet to optimal levels than to improve the
blood chemistry of people who eat little or no soyfoods. (Blood chemistry,
according to Clement, includes everything from iron levels to pH balance.)

Several scientists have linked soy consumption to suppressed
thyroid function, including hypothyroidism (in which the gland produces not enough
hormones).

Daniel R. Doerge, Ph.D., a researcher at the
Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) National Center for Toxicological Research
in Jefferson, Ark., who has isolated and studied the "anti-thyroid" components of
soy. "But I see substantial risks from taking soy supplements or eating huge
amounts of soyfoods for their putative disease-preventive value. There is definitely
potential for interaction with the thyroid."

I could go on, but what I wanted to point out here, is you have evrything from scientist to vagan nutrionalist, that all believe that in excess that it is harmful, so that brings us back to with gliders only being 100 grams themselves, then what is considered too much for them? If we look at the fact we are aproxamitly 600 times the size of a glider . For an average of 150 lbs for a person that would come up to about 2400 ounces, a glider weighs aprox. 4 ounces. so in order to break down to a safe dose wouldn't be easy for the average person

Fallon believes that eating more than 12 g of these unfermented foods a day (equal
to about a tablespoon) can lead to a shortage of crucial minerals.

so using the 12 grams per day lets say for a human of 150 lbs..and a glider weighs 4 ounces, if 12 grams is maybe too much for a human, then that means that .02 grams is too much for a glider.
Am I correct here ? I was roughing it at 4 ounces is about 100 grams..
so we would have to take a tablespoon and divide it into 600 sections and only one of those sections be fed? It has been a long day but am I right here? or an approximate?
Naahra, This was open for discussion since we know so little and they are so small, how would we convert to safe levels?



Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 7:00 PM, 06 Oct 2000
IP: 152.163.195.212

Thanks for letting me know that you don't make your pets become vegetarians. Sorry if I gave offense, but I've met people who do exactly that with no thoughts for what it might do to their pets.

As for the sources of information, as near as I can tell, none of them are tied to the meat or dairy industry. At least some of the sources work for FDA and one at least is a nutritionist.



Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: One more interesting soy link
When: 12:59 AM, 10 Oct 2000
IP: 205.188.192.37

Here's another soy link.
<a href=http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/>http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/</a>





Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: okay some workable figures
When: 2:23 AM, 10 Oct 2000
IP: 216.248.35.227

okay based on a page on that last link, on safe values.
<a href=http://www.gerson.org/healing/articles/nl_soy.html>http://www.gerson.org/healing/articles/nl_soy.html</a>
okay the 30 soy isoflavones is equivilent to 1.8 to 3.9 ounces of tofu per day. now they were basing this on a 70K adult. now my math maybe a little fuzzy but here are the figures i got, and how I got them

70K = 175 lbs that is with a conversion of 2.5 lbs per K
average human but their figures. I usually use 150 lbs..
4 oz = 113 grams using a conversion of 28grams per oz. this was easier to go backwards with
average glider (just estimating here)

175lbs=2800 oz 2800divided by 4 = 700

this is 700x's the difference between their human and a glider

okay based on their figures. of 1.8 - 3.9 oz of tofu, that comes out to
1.8 oz divided by the 700 x's = .002571.....
3.9 oz divided by the 700x's = .005571.....
so the safe amounts on a daily basis would have to be between .002571 and .005571 ozs.

this particular part really concerned me on this same link.
"New Zealand environmental scientist and phytoestrogen researcher Dr Mike Fitzpatrick
met with California DHS staff in June 1998 to express his concerns about soy, and
particularly soy formulas. He received a written response from DHS toxicologist Dr
Susan Loscutoff. Loscutoff stated:

"I agree that high levels of dietary exposures to isoflavones in infants fed soy-based
formulas is cause for concern".

"I do not agree that parents have a right to know that soy-based formulas contain
isoflavones and the kinds of toxicities isoflavones might demonstrate in infants, since
parents would not know how to interpret the information."

This kind of response it quite typical of agencies fearing a severe backlash from the soy
lobby should they alert the public to the potential health concerns of soy isoflavones."



Posted by: Moderator
Subject: bring to the top
When: 3:43 PM, 19 Oct 2000
IP: 216.248.35.217

Brought back up for current discussion



Posted by: IrishCreme
Subject: none
When: 8:31 PM, 22 Oct 2000
IP: 209.71.86.44

Brought forward to reference these calculated "safe values" against those contained in commercial foods.
And the possible complications that could arise when giving soy based products in addition to commercial foods...

Reference topic - "Technical Q - Commercial Feeds"




Posted by: Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com
Subject: none
When: 9:28 PM, 22 Oct 2000
IP: 205.188.199.156

According to Farmland, soybean meal is processed and roasted to destroy the growth inhibitors. They do daily monitoring for protein quality. Here is the link <a href=http://www.farmland.com/feed_ingredients/index.htm>http://www.farmland.com/feed_ingredients/index.htm</a>




Posted by: Moderator
Subject: Bringing to the top
When: 5:53 PM, 17 Nov 2000
IP: 216.248.35.214

..



Posted by: Debbie, delliott@telocity.com
Subject: To dagny
When: 11:44 AM, 19 Nov 2000
IP: 216.227.111.97

Dagny are these the posts you were looking for?



Posted by: dagny
Subject: none
When: 12:00 PM, 19 Nov 2000
IP: 207.87.132.10

YES! THANK YOU SO MUCH..i went through the old posts and must have missed it. smile



Posted by: Barb, barbloo@yahoo.comS
Subject: soy
When: 10:06 PM, 22 Nov 2000
IP: 63.180.48.78

I personally don't see what the big deal is about soy. Altho I haven't fed my gliders tofu (because I don't like it/ eat it), I certainly cannot see what harm it would do if the gliders had it on occasion. In moderation, I truly do not believe it could hurt. I am in my 50's and have eaten soybeans since I was kid; I have never had any problems with it. The only reason I have never given it to my gliders is that it's not something I thought they would like - given their known likes, dislikes. Let's face it people; if we charbroiled every meal to death, we might be apt to get cancer. (I think secondhand smoke is 1000X more harmful than broiling, so any of you who smoke should really take that into consideration. My animals grumble and bite if a smoker puts a hand near them!) Another case in point is nutisweet (aspartame): It turns to a poison at temperatures less than body temperature - meaning it enters your BODY as a POISON. It is the companies that push aspartame that shove all the hype down our throats. I truly believe if you research it, you'd find sweet and low (saccharin) safer. - - Same storyline as barbecuing. The real safe natural sugar is STEVIA. It is an herb that has NO calories and does not mess with insulin. Be careful of what you read: When I first got my gliders nearly 5 years ago, people told me not to give my gliders yogurt because they could not digest the lactose. GUESS WHAT?? My gliders love yogurt, and they have done well. Also, none of mine ever suffered from hind leg paralysis; whereas some of those people's animals did. . . . I was also told that if I handled my babies they would not bond with a new owner.....ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!!! I have never had an animal I raised not bond with a new owner, and no one who has been around my babies and other gliders will tell you mine aren't the nicest around. . . . Bottom line: Use a little common sense and don't believe everything you hear. Also, consider your source...(I was a biology/psychology major in college and have successfully raised and sold many kind of animals - not for the money, but for the love of the animal. (When I bred angelfish my preference was to sell them for less money to a pet store that pampered them over one that paid more but could care less about the angels - just another commodity.) . . . In nearly 5 years of raising gliders (except for JJ's hernia which had nothing to with her care), I have had sick animals only twice: My wild caughts BeBop and GG were in a draft when the heat went out and coughed and sneezed 24 hours. One other time they coughed and sneezed 24 hours. It would be interesting to find out the heritage of some of the animals experiencing seizure (that is totally new to me). Those of you with animals have seizures should try to find out about your animals heritage....I would have to wonder if the problem is being caused be inbreeding....TO ALL GLIDER OWNERS: If you have a pair (m/f), please find out if they are related and do not breed them if so. It could cause a great deal of problems later on and this would greatly affect each and everyone of us who dearly loves the little ones. PLEASE KNOW THAT IF YOU ARE INBREEDING YOUR ANIMALS, YOU COULD CAUSE FUTURE GENERATIONS OF YOUR ANIMALS UNTOLD PROBLEMS, SO DON'T DO! (If you want a pair of animals get 2m or 2f. You'll enjoy them every bit as much and you won't have the problem of getting rid of babies: Trust me - as much as you might like to, you cannot keep them all and then give them all the attention they so dearly crave. Sorry I got so carried away, but I love these little guys to pieces and only want the best for them. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL! I know my gliders are going to love their share of the turkey.



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: none
When: 3:49 AM, 03 Dec 2000
IP: 216.248.35.225

Brought back up for research reasons



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: none
When: 10:22 AM, 04 Dec 2000
IP: 216.248.35.143

We all agree anything in moderation, The tofu discussion isn't meant for those that feed it once in a great while in moderation, as much as it was intended for those that feed it as a regular food, to replace other things, I believe the figures, show that the amounts to be fed on a daily basis to avoid the danger issues is so very small that it almost can't be measured out. I agree about the issues that haven't been researched, and the hype of the manufactures and companies that do utilize the products. The aspertame issue is one of the controversial issues that has been founght back and forth. Lactose in the diets, that too, however; through research we can find more and more. That is the idea of the technical discussions, so that we can maybe separate the hype from the facts. We havee also found through this discussion that only certain ways foods are prepared is where we have to worry the most with it, as many of the commercial foods are made with soy products, (which is in yet another Technical discussion), in fact almost all pet foods are made with some type of soy in them. Barb, your comments are very important, as we have various Threads regarding almost all the issues you brought good points up in.
they are all listed as Technical q's
Soy
Inbreeding/linebreeding or genetics
Commercial feeds
Onions
Suppliments




Posted by: Jasmine, Spookie_Girl@yahoo.com
Subject: none
When: 8:31 PM, 06 Dec 2000
IP: 165.247.112.239

I'm a vegetarian (except for fish--can't give up Sushi raspberry ) and I researched different foods very carefully before switching over. The research I've found on soy/tofu (humans) has always been positive. It's high in calcium and protein, and I've read legitimate studies that show those who eat it have lower risks of heart attacks and different cancers (including breast cancer). This article has been the first thing I've read that attacks soy. Now, I don't believe in miracle foods. No one should raise their pets or themselves on only one kind of food or they will be deprived of vitamins. However, until I see better sources than this that show solid evidence that tofu is dangerous I will continue to supplement my diet with it...and ENJOY IT (Garden Burgers rock).

My sugar gliders, on the other hand, won't. Not because I never tried to feed it to them, but because they won't touch it (they won't touch anything with RepCal either unless it's really disguised). They can be fussy eaters...just like kids or silly boyfriends. smile



Posted by: Mary/beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu
Subject: none
When: 12:06 PM, 07 Dec 2000
IP: 161.45.207.54

I was curious as to when you did your reaserch. If you look at this thread there are actually many sources that say it...not just one.



Posted by: Jasmine, Spookie_Girl@yahoo.com
Subject: Soy
When: 3:37 PM, 09 Dec 2000
IP: 165.247.116.27

To evaluate the studies properly, one must investigate how they were performed, their sponsors, and their test subjects. I've seen very little info on this within any of these articles. During the animal studies, what kinds of animals were used? Was a small percentage of their diet soy or were they fed nothing but soy? Where they given the daily vitamins that they needed that may not have been contained within soy? If you feed a cat nothing but tofu, of course it will die or have growth problems. Cats NEED animal protein in their diets or they will suffer from severe health problems. Same ideas go with human beings or sugar gliders. If a person or a sugar glider is fed predominantly a soy diet they will not be healthy. Omnivores must have a varied diet. soy does have many nutrients in it, it is by no means a food to live on alone (just like any other food).

I started to reseach soy and other vegatarian foods last year (when I first decided to become a vegatarian) and I continue to research healthy, non-meat (except fish) alternatives all the time. I've never felt more healthy and energetic. I've also had fewer health problems (like allergies, colds & fevers), and I'm no longer overweight (I was clinically obese two years ago). This, of course, may actually be due to the fact I'm eating more veggies and less junk food rather than that I added soy into my diet, but it is a well-known fact that soy is an excellent source of protein and calcium. Soy milk actually has more calcium than a glass of milk.

Anyhow, I am a skeptic about these new reports that attack soy (a product that's been around for thousands of years that the majority of non-biased studies support). I've got to see more concrete evidence containing all the facts before I change my mind about it.



Posted by: Jasmine, Spookie_Girl@yahoo.com
Subject: To Barb:
When: 3:46 PM, 09 Dec 2000
IP: 165.247.116.27

I totally aggree with your view on inbreeding. What really disturbs me is there is a book out there that encourages people to inbreed their sugar glider. It's called "Sugar Gliders as Your New Pet," and it's published by TFH Publications, Inc. If you look closely at it there are lots of photos, but they all are of the same sugar glider. YEESH! frown



Posted by: Jim M
Subject: none
When: 4:59 PM, 09 Dec 2000
IP: 12.75.96.25

Wow, alot of powerful info here!! I think everyone makes a good point, one way or another, but you cannot use yourself as a biochemical marker to address the soy issue in comparison to gliders. Their metabolic pathways are comparable to ours, BUT not the same ( i.e. the krebs cycle, oxalic acid, glycolysis, etc). And as far as these studies go, I agree with Jasmine. As an epidemiologist, you have to read these studies and look for things they invaidate the results. These things would include nonstatistical associations AND confounders. An example would be the thyroid issue. They may show an association, but what was fed in the diet? Soy alone? If this was the case, was it truly the soy that caused the thyroid condition or the lack of fats and cholesterol in the diet, that are needed to make the hormones and steroids in the body? It is so easy for these "researchers" to publish their papers in the paper or a journal, i.e., sensitionalization! I am not downplaying the truly "good at heart" researchers out there, but there alot that will publish results to make a name for themselves. Believe me, I see it everyday. There are risks in many foods, not just soy alone. You can have chemical as well as microbiological contamination (I do not like the word contamination in this context, because I am conveying natural or non-natural). It is funny how there are risks of eating burnt food and getting cancer from the heterocyclic amines in that burnt part, but yet many of us still eat it. All I can say is "Go immune system". Finally, the soy issue is going to be around for a long time and if there is that much controversy about it, then do not feed it to your gliders! And if you are and you feel comfortable about it, I guess drive on. I have a ton more I can say about this regarding toxilogical studies, but I won't. I know I put have of you to sleep. Sorry! Good luck with your decisions!! wink



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: none
When: 6:06 PM, 09 Dec 2000
IP: 216.248.35.204

You have not bored us, Not by a long shot, jim,
as for what you and Jasmine say it is true. However like you said jim, we are looking at the comparisons, to a glider vs human size which, in the articles, no one is saying that those isssues are not valid, they are saying within a reasonable range. The japanese has made soy a part of their regular diet and have done it for years, they have maintained under a certain amount, on the other hand. They spoke in the articles regarding certain active agents in the soy that may be detrimental over a certain amount, which is what we had tried to do, we have tried to break those figures down to the proprtionate size of the glider, which brings it far less than what an average person can measure out. As for the tofu, well that is covered more in one of the articles, regarding the non fermenting of it, therefore not cooking it well. This thread was not to deter the use of soy or the products that contain soy, for as we have seen, soy is in many of our foods, and most pet feeds, what we have tried to do is find out what is a safe amount, no one has ever discounted the positive properties of the soy issues, but we also can't disregard the negative as well. It was really strange that i noticed that for premenapausal women that they are using isoflvorines as a primary ingredient in many of their products. and advertising it. So when going back over the articles, i don't see where society has not aknowledged the issues either, just not as outspoken about them. It is easier to accept something that has so many healthy attributes. If there is a fear of toxicity, shouldn't we concern ourselves with that and try to stay within those levels which are known to be safe? Rather than over exceed them only to find out that problems can occur?



Posted by: Jasmine, Spookie_Girl@yahoo.com
Subject: This is an excellent and fasci
When: 11:55 AM, 10 Dec 2000
IP: 165.247.116.33

I agree with both Jim and Bourbon. You both make great points! The one I very much agree with is that any food can be dangerous depending on what parts of it we eat (like Rhubarb) and how it is prepared.

Does anybody remember the gigantic controversy over apples a few years back? Supposedly, they were adding some ingrediant (some toxin in jet fuel) on the apples (to make them more shiny?). These apples were being used in baby food, apple sauce and apple juice (Gerber?), and people were discovering that it was causing cancer and other health problems in children.

It's also disturbing that nutrasweet is still commonly being used. It has been proven for years that it kills brain cells, and if exposed over 80F (very common to store sodas at higher temps) it creates toxins that can cause something akin to neurological lupus to those who drink too much of it. What's also amazing is that I just heard on the radio that a "new study" revealed that "nutrasweet actually REDUCES headaches" (BS). I just WONDER where those "new studies" came from? Were these people drinking caffeinated diet drinks (once addicted to caffeine one can suffered headaches without it)? Could this become another controversy similar to that of the Tobacco Industry?

The fact is it's downright scary what kinds of things are hiding in our foods. Even "organic" stuff is questionable. This is why I said I'm constantly researching. It never hurts to learn more, but it's also important to be skeptical about what you learn (a tough balance).



Posted by: Jim M
Subject: none
When: 6:48 PM, 10 Dec 2000
IP: 12.75.99.203

Jasmine,
Just to add to your apple info, the apple seeds contain cyanide and there has been one documented case of a human man dying from the cyanide because he loved to eat the seeds. And the cyanide is "natural", not from pesticides or anything man-made. I know I am off of the Soy track and I apologize moderator, but I like sharing interesting info as well as hearing them from others!



Posted by: Bourbon
Subject: Jim,
When: 9:46 PM, 10 Dec 2000
IP: 216.248.35.183

You know Jim, it just isn't the apple seeds, but maybe you can do that, start a new topic and call it Technical Q - Natural Toxins , and maybe we can get other things up there theat we are giving warnings for, like the appleseeds, and other pits from like peaches, cherrys etc..cat nips trees plants etc..



Posted by: up
Subject: none
When: 12:16 AM, 02 Jan 2001
IP: 216.248.35.252

Up again