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Manxx Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 12:21:09 AM
Hi all,
First, confession / warn other noobs time:
I've always had exotics and am a dog trainer by hobby, so I'm very familiar with specialty needs pets and am also very familiar with the polical reterict that comes with people who care deeply about things but also destroys all clarity to balanced knowledge. So like many out there, I got a LOT of conflicting messages and decided I had enough info to know they were pets I could enjoy for the next 12 or so years. I bought my two YESTERDAY from a very sweet lady who deals locally on behalf of someone else. (I'm not sure if I can name names so I'm not risking it.. specifically). I am not sorry I bought Chloe and Charlie but the fall backs I thought I had weren't as good as at first they seemed. I had my doubts so no great loss. I'll sort the mess out, that's just a matter of more research.
That being said, dear person trying to sort out the questoins about gliders. Don't trust LONG LONG LONG web pages. Don't trust anyone setting up a commercial practice (selling) on a .org domain. Do not trust web info that quotes, verbatim, what is said on videos from an "expert". Don't trust anyone claiming that only THEY have the secret and don't underestimate the degree to which some will exaggerate their imaginings to trap you. If it seems like someone is going to a LOT of effort to over sell, DON't trust them!
So I got some glider-food (writing it that way for a reason) and we have more on the way to tie us over. I found out to avoid bananas, citrus fruits and of course, chocolates just like the dogs. I know non-stick cookware and scotch guard dangers from my parrot days. I don't know what they're metabolism is like though, should I have "quick-stop" on hand just in case?
As for feeding. We have a bearded dragon (no they will never be in the same open space together! Or have access to each Other!) and although we do feed the beaerdie crickets and occasoinal a horned worm, we prefer feeding her plain tofu for the bulk of her protein needs to avoid the pitfalls of extra ingredients from live feeding. How might tofu work with Gliders? Good idea? Bad? Has anyone tried this?
I was looking up HPW diets and ended up on Australian sites reading about Womberoo and milk replacement so umm, help?! What is Womberoo and why do I want that?
So right now my Joeys are confirmed eating their Glider-stuff pellets, apple with supplements and "gravy" (no idea why they need that). They're also confirmed drinking and in 80+ degrees with cool areas and warmer ones.
I'm not putting any presssure on them to bond but working their natural curiosity and taking advantage of those opportunities. Last night the female started licking the side of my finger through the bars (I think she also tried to go for a bit of a nibble since I saw her jaws open up). Tonight I'll offer some apple sauce on my finger. I haven't removed them from the cage yet ( I've been itching to) but I feel they need a little time to relax and feel safe in their home before I start imposing myself on them. Am I off track here?
I work from home (programmer) in a leather chair where I also relax all night and they're cage is next to my arm rest so they will become accustom to the crunching noise of the leather and all my noise as I work. They're sleeping well and seem very comfy. They're pretty groggy when they get up to go to the bathroom during the day. I leave my shirt over the front of their cage when I go to bed as an added scent source.
Thanks in advance |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
TJones09 Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 08:09:35 PM
Manxx, Lizards are cold blooded and need to thermoregulate by moving from cool to warm/hot areas as needed because their bodies do not produce enough metabolic heat to warm themselves. Sugar gliders are warm blooded, and although 80 is a great and comfortable temperature for them, you don't want them so warm that they'll dehydrate, so if you try your best to find a range between 80-85, with maybe variations within 5 degrees higher or lower at the most, no more than that at times will be okay (not lower than 75 or higher than 90).
I do understand it's challenging when you live in areas with extreme temperatures. Believe it or not, I have to be more careful with cooler temps (unless electric goes out) during the summer months when the AC is running  .
I have an orange bulb in an overhead fixture (not high wattage), and I have a three-necked lamp not too far from the cage with fluorescent bulbs, and believe me, when any of those are on, I can feel a difference in warmth in my room. Of course my room is small, and has only one outside wall, which is not one of the longer walls. |
Manxx Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 07:45:45 PM
Hey TJohns,
I started playing with my sources today. With the overhead lamp raised off the top of the cage I'm getting 80 degrees in the newspaper tray without heating the room. So I've pulled the plug on the heat rock for now until I can come up with a means of surrounding it in a material to radiate the heat more safely. I want them to have the option of additional heat if they need it but don't want to radiate a lot more heat across the entire environment such that they can't cool down. You have lizards so you know the kind of thing I'm heading for.
On the food topic, I'm not impressed with that "gravy". I followed what I was told and ended up with a thick oozie mass that glued all of the kibble together into a giant mass. I doubt the babies could get it apart so I'm going to try thinning it out a bit. They had me mix it 2:1 gray:water, freeze and put on top of their food. #128533;
I have a mistake to correct. I've been rewarding them coming to me with apple sauce from my finger so when I offered my female my hand, first she tried to lick my finger and decided she needed to nip it open. A quick verbal worked but now I have to teach her my fingers taste sour. Any safe lickables they will hate?
Had my first experience trying to pouch the two of them. Ha! Unbelievable how hard they can bite, I'm glad I avoided it! I think my biggest challenge is getting #2 in the pouch without letting #1 escape. Grabbing them sleep helps just a little but the second pouching I had today they were awake. My male allowed me to grab him but the female wasn't having it and we ended up in a 20 minute adventure all over the bathroom floor. Lol.. Women!#128521;
They spend all day in their cage silent, just running around. I get em in the pouch and the crabbing and fighting starts and last pretty much 2/3rds of the time even with the apple in there.
Ever since the last pounching they're at each other even under their sleeping cloth. They're crabbing and sptting in their cage as I type |
TJones09 Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 07:06:23 PM
Thank you Leela, for the complement on my post. And Manxx, you're quite more than welcome. I have probably tried every HPW type diet out there (as far as I know of) with the exception of the jar variety. It's a long story to give the history of my HPW type diet journey , so I just tried to brief all I knew, most of all I learned along the way of my journey.
Heat sources do not need to be necessarily over top of the glider's cage. You can opt for a room heater that is set on a thermostat (safest), or even use a regular incandescent bulb, in a higher-end wattage in a fixture that accommodates that wattage just sitting near by the cage. The incandescent bulb will raise the radiant heat in the room, closer to the bulb being the warmest of course. I used these as an added heat source for my lizards as needed. |
jdching Posted - Mar 23 2017 : 03:20:39 PM
I keep my thermometer on the wall where they can't mess with it. |
Manxx Posted - Mar 22 2017 : 09:05:17 PM
Thanks Tiakristin,
Hot rocks are even dangerous for lizards for whom they were designed. I have a few issues with the heat sources from Pocket Pets.
I live in Canada and my home hovers between 70-73 degrees so I opted to get the extra ceramic heat lamp. The thing is hot to the touch and the cage bars are covered in pvc plastic so that had me a bit concerned. Then I saw my babies crawling the ceiling of the cage near the heat lamp so I got one of those small broiler racks for use in an electric fry pan and used it to get the heat lamp up off the bars a bit so there is no direct contact heat, only radiant heat.
The heat rock does concern me and I check it regularly. At the moment I'm more concerned about hypothermia. I can hold my hand on the thing and being a 35 year IT guy, I have delicate skin so it's warm but I think for the moment it's not hot enough to cause anything bad they can't just walk away from. The good is outweighing the bad for the moment. But believe me, I've been contemplating a replacement focused heat source for the rock or building it up with another normal rock on top like they're supposed to be for lizards.
They keep trying to get at the double-sided tape on the thermometer I put in there to measure the ambient temp so at last check it was only around 79 degrees. I'm just thinking I'll put the thermometer in the centre of their cage in the newspaper tray! |
Tiakristin3 Posted - Mar 22 2017 : 12:21:16 AM
John,
Congratulations on your new gliders and good job caring for them! All the diets and supplements out there make it all so confusing. Just one thing I wanted to add. I got my first glider from Pocket Pets and they told me that hot rocks are very important to gliders. I've since learned, from exotic vets and other sources, that they can be extremely dangerous. After hearing numerous stories about chewed wires and gliders getting over heated, I threw the hot rock away. There are other heat sources you can get like ceramic heat lamps placed outside the cage. But most gliders do fine with normal household temperatures as long as they have a cozy place to sleep (you can always add an extra piece of fleece to their pouch). |
Manxx Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 09:27:27 PM
Hey TJones09,
Thank you so much, you've offered a lot of direct clarity and verified some of the things I was seeing on the Australian sites regarding Womberoo content in the products. You've also helped me feel a little bit comfortable that the food products I have for the moment are ok while I research around. Now I can focus on earning their trust and learning their specific needs. They never stop eating which I guess I should be happy about, my female has taken care of about two full table spoons of kibble (I gave one and had to refil) and the two of them took care of a little over a full quarter apple with vitamins on them along with the apple sauce treats from my finger, all just today. At this rate I will have pigs that DO fly.
They both trust my hand now but still fear fast movements. My male spent a good hour sitting on his hot rock next to me today waiting for more opportunities to lick sauce off my finger which I naturally rewarded periodically.
Thanks for all your help. I certainly appreciate it.
John |
Leela Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 08:59:13 PM
 I stand corrected. what TJones said !! Nice post Tjones  those ones always confuse the crap outta me lol |
TJones09 Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 08:47:52 PM
Wombaroo is a brand of high protein supplement (WHPS). It is imported from Australia I believe. Peggy Brewer's Critter Love products are made with an American version that she formulated, it is a high protein supplement (HPS), but not the same brand. Her version in Plus, is made the same way as HPW Original (now Critter Love Original, which is made from Wombaroo brand), the Plus version (CLP) is her branded high protein supplement added to the eggs, honey, bee pollen, and water, just as the Wombaroo brand HPS would be. Peggy's Complete formula (CLC) is an instant version, using her branded HPS, not the brand Wombaroo. It is mixed with water.
EN also sells what they call HPW diets, which also do not contain any WHPS. They offer an "Instant" version as well as a "kit" that you need to add only honey, egg, and water (being it contains HPS and bee pollen). These are not, I repeat made with the Wombaroo brand. I cannot remember the brand name they use exactly, but it can be found now on their website, which it didn't use to.
With all of the "HPW" type diets, I've used all of those (except the jar version from EN). I personally recommend using either Critter Love Original (CLO) made with Wombaroo brand HPS, or one of her branded products with her formulated HPS. I trust her integrity and know extensive research involved. It is true that Pocket Pets "Gravey" is actually Critter Love Complete (CLC)but branded under another name for that company and it contains her American-made-version HPS.  |
Leela Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 07:44:26 PM
I'm not super versed on the ins and outs of the hpw diets, it's not a diet I've ever used.
From my understanding, the wombaroo powder is one of the protein sources but also supplies some vitamins and minerals to the diet.
The diet you are currently feeding if it came from Pocket Pets, is actually Critter love Original hpw. Peggy ( the maker of critter love ) "teamed up" with Pocket Pets to improve the diet they sell with their gliders. It's simply repackaged and renamed with Peggy's permission.
The gravy you are using ( again if from Pocket pets ) does have wombaroo powder in it, it's just premixed into it, so you don't have to add it to it yourself.
I would suggest going n talking to Peggy, she can explain her diet much better than I can.
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Manxx Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 07:00:15 PM
Thanks for all great info.
Still not quite sure how HPW fits into my he diet. Is it a different dietary approach? Is it a peice of a diet? What is a Womberoo and how does its presence fit in because some of the HPW diets, including the gravy I have, have been identified as having no womperoo at all.
Thanks |
jdching Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 08:51:07 AM
It sounds like you are doing a great job with your new gliders! Believe me, your patience will pay off.
I feed mine OHPW, (which I believe is the same as Critter Love and Glider Gravy.) All of the necessary vitamins are in the Wombaroo powder which is mixed with egg and honey. A variety of fruits and vegetables are served along with the supplement.
I don't know about tofu, have never heard it mentioned on this site but you could search our archives.
Each glider has their own personality, so you may or may not reach the same level of bonding as some of the pictures and videos you come across. |
Leela Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 08:43:08 AM
Welcome and congrats
Tofu was tried some years ago and they didn't find the benefits outweighed the negatives so tofu is really not used for gliders. I haven't had my coffee so I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember Edamame was also included in the soy products they tried. There is information about that topic on Glider Central.
The non stick, scotch guard pots n pans... I have never heard of a confirmed case of a glider dying from this, that isn't to say it couldn't happen under the right circumstances. For the pots n pans to become toxic they must be heated the smoking point with nothing in the pan, that is when the pains have been a problem. Under normal cooking conditions, with food in the pan they are not a concern.
Hornworms are safe for gliders many people feed them, I don't, but many do.
Crickets can also be fed, However, you must be sure of the cricket source and how they were raised. Crickets have the potential to carry aflatoxins from corn based bedding. I don't feed them for that reason, but some people are either ok with that risk or aren't aware of that risk and feed them.
There are a few different kinds of Hpw diets, I only recommend the critter love ones. All the hpw ones require bee pollen, including the gravy your feeding. Bee pollen is fine in itself, but if you ever take your pair in for fecal testing make sure to let the vet and vet tech know that bee pollen is in the gliders diet. Bee pollen can show a false positive for parasites.
I will say you can add more fruit and veg to their diet, since your feeding critter love hpw original ( which is repackaged and labeled gravy ) there are salads designed to go with hpw original on the critter love website. The fruits n veg in the salads are the ones that work best with that diet and is whats suggested to feed with it by Peggy. http://www.critterlove.com/diet-info.html
The salad recipe and all other diet related info about her hpw's are on the website. Peggy is also very happy to answer any questions and is available on facebook https://www.facebook.com/peggy.h.brewer
There is also a facebook group that has 5 of the diet creators in the group which is rare I believe its the only group that has these 5 all in one group. They are all happy to answer questions about their own diet. https://www.facebook.com/groups/847319852005676/
This is a 0 drama, educational group with members ranging from 0 experience to 20 yr experience. It's also about the only Pocket Pet neutral group there is.
Milk replacement is meant for rejected joey's, not the normal glider, so unless you plan on breeding at some point it's not anything you need to be concerned about getting.
The temperature doesn't need to be that warm, they can self regulate their body temp UNLESS the glider is dehydrated. If you are using a heat lamp or heat rock it isn't necessary.
Air flow, air circulation is important though, so try to make sure the cage isn't overly covered up, even though they can self regulate their body temps in normal circumstances gliders can over heat and die, there are many confirmed cases of gliders passing in bonding bags that were stacked next to each other and had limited air flow. My house is usually around 72 degrees sometimes cooler sometimes warmer. If you live in a cold climate northern area and are concerned about them being cold all the need is some extra cut up fleece for in the pouch.
No your not off base by giving them some time to settle and adjust. It is usually recommended to give them about a week to settle in. But really that depends on the gliders and their behaviors. I've had some I let settle and some I got out of the cage n handled from day 1.
I'd give them a couple days at least. |
TJones09 Posted - Mar 21 2017 : 06:33:56 AM
I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of time, and I'm sure someone will come along and answer all your concerns.
I did however want to discuss HPW diet as briefly as possible. HPW was created by Peggy Brewer (with extensive research), using Wombaroo High Protein Supplement WHPS. She later created her own (again with extensive research)brand of High Protein Supplement, and HPW was then referred to as HPW Original. Some time after, she trademarked her brand name Critter Love, she also, to help end confusion, changed HPW Original to Critter Love Original.
The "Gravy" you are most likely using is the product Critter Love Complete (CLC) branded under a different name for Pocket Pets. This helps improve the Pocket Pets diet.
I can come back after work and check on other replies and see if there are any other holes to fill.
Oh, and welcome to Glider Gossip  |
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