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nurseotter Glider    TX, USA
85 Posts
Hello!
I just ordered this stuff on the recommendation of my Vet, Dr Brust... Has anyone out there tried it?
Thanx,
Audra
Please do not take offense, but I've looked at these websites, and I am suspicious of your vet's motives: http://www.asgv.org/client-education/ce_series2.php
http://www.vetspride.com/solution.php
In the first link, there are multiple claims about the "needs" of sugar gliders that sound very much like a sales pitch from PPP. Sugar gliders do not, and should not need a heat rock. The reason that the mill gliders like PPP say that sugar gliders need heat rocks--they pull and sell joeys that are often too young from their parents, so that they can make more $$$. I am sorry. I'm sure your vet is an excellent vet, but I have to wonder if he might not be working with mill breeders? I am just really concerned about some of the claims on these sites. I'm confused. Dr. Brust is supposed to be *the* leading Sugar Glider vet. I was just looking at the website because Dr. Brust also recommend this diet to us (though I'm still using BML) I didn't see anything about a hot rock on either site. He does recommend an additional heat source if you don't keep your house the recommended temperature, but not a hot rock that I know of. I don't know of any vets who recommend any hot rocks for any animals because of the potential for burns. Chi elements are often recommended because they are kept outside of the cage. My sister keeps her house at 60 degrees so if she were to keep gliders she might need an additional heat source. I do know that Dr. Brust has some concerns about BML and HPV but not from people who are using them properly. His big concern is that he's had many patients who were supposedly on BML or HPV but their owners took shortcuts. Remember that as a vet he is more likely to meet the people who do things wrong than the people who do things right. I do know that Dr. Brust does work with a breeder, but it is my understanding, at least, that this is a breeder who educates her clientel before they buy a glider and that she follows through after the sale. There are mill breeders in the area and again, it is my understanding that he has spoken out publicly against them and worked to get them closed. Dr. Brust has also worked hard to educate other veterinarians in the area about glider care. So, my personal inclination is to trust him on diet. I hope this helps clarify some misunderstandings. Mollysmom Goofy Gorillatoes MI, USA 2011 Posts Hi, Susan: Here's a direct quote from the first website I put a link to in my first post: "...4) Essential Supplies Use of a supplemental heat source is strongly recommended. A conventional heat rock is preferable to heat lamp or UV lighting during the bonding period. Introduction of a nesting cloth/heat rock combination is preferable to nesting boxes or hanging pouches due to stress and bonding considerations. " I am just very concerned about this, because when I look at those sites, which are linked right from the site where Dr. Brust talks about Nutrimax, it just seems that there's a direct link to Perfect Pocket Pets. Honest--I am not someone who would ever want to trash someone's name or reputation. It just gave me an uneasy feeling looking at those sites. I'm not disagreeing with Rita or anyone else. I was simply pointing out the Dr. Brust is supposed to be extremely knowledgable about sugar gliders. His own sugar gliders eat the Vets Pride diet and they are beautiful and healthy gliders. Sugar Gliders are his life and his main research. While it is true that in the wild, gliders do not eat dry pellets, it is equally true that they don't eat baby cereal, chicken and wheat germ mixed with other BML ingredients in a blender. I'm not criticizing BML by any means -- I make it and use it. I'm simply pointing out that BML and HPV are no less artificial than a properly prepared pelleted food. Ideally I think the best feeding method is calculating the calcium/phosphorous ratios of everything and feeding as natural a diet as possible. However, for most people that is simply not a practical and realistic option. So, I was simply trying to clarify that Dr. Brust does not see the people who do diet right. He personally told me that BML and HPV are excellent diets when done properly. Remember, however, that he sees gliders every day who are being fed the wrong things from people who *claim* they are using BML but are really taking shortcuts. He sees gliders everyday with MBD and other problems who *claim* to have learned from forums. He doesn't see those of us who are careful to buy the right ingredients and measure except in a case like mine where I received gliders who were abandoned and not properly cared for before they came to me. There is a place in our city that is like a big market. They sell gliders there to anyone who has a hundred dollars with no education on how to care for them. So, a lot of gliders get sold in our area every weekend and I'm sure that many of these end up sick in Dr.Brust's office. The truth is that not everyone who buys a glider at a market is going to go through the trouble that most of us are willing to go through. I asked another vet about this diet to get another opinion. This other vet is a proponent of BML but he also had good things to say about Vet's Pride. Like Wholesome Foods used by SunCoast, it is a simpler way to give gliders good nutrition. It is not the only way, but evidence points that it is healthy and nutritious and if Dr. Brust's personal gliders are any indication, it does indeed work. We all want what is best for our gliders. But, there is more than one right way to get what is best. There seems to be a lot of politics involved in keeping sugar gliders and that is very sad. I didn't ask, Rita. Audra asked. I felt a little attacked when I responded that I didn't think it was a bad diet, that I didn't think a vet of Dr. Brust's caliber would recommend a bad diet or feed his own gliders something that he hasn't carefully researched or that is not healthy. So, I didn't mean to sound defensive, but I suppose I did feel the need to defend our vet, who has been very very helpful with these rescues. I guess, though, that I had better shut up before I dig myself in deeper. I'm truly sorry if my defending Dr. Brust offended people.
Some photos from our members Am I just missing something? Because I don't see where it supports a mill breeder on the Vet's Pride website and this is not the same food used by PPP. So, did I overlook something here? Which link? I'm trying to find it and apparently keep missing it.... Thanks! Nevermind. It took some digging, but I found what you guys are talking about. I don't think it is a definitive link to Dr. Brust, but it is something I should certainly ask him about. Thank you. Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy  Australia 1168 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Really
I don't think it is a definitive link to Dr. Brust
The issue is he has his recommendation of the products on the Vet prides page as well as endorsing them in the videos...and then you read stuff like this on the Vets Pride site quote:
The unique proprietary formulations of Nutrimax™ and Vitamax™ are the end result of literally decades of scientific and veterinary research - combined with over 13 years of practical growth, reproductive and feeding trials involving more than 10,000 sugar gliders.
If 10,000 sugar glider doesn't scream out MILL BREEDER what does???? Plus all the information on his videos also sentiment the exact words that appear on certain nasty websites...plus the fact on at least one of Dr.Brust's videos the credits say to go to the said nasty web site for more information. He might be a great vet but clearly he is supporting the wrong people. Maybe as your vet, you can ask him all the big questions...like whose 10,000 gliders were the subject of these scientific diet trials?? nurseotter Glider TX, USA 85 Posts Ingredients: soybean meal, whole grain yellow corn, whole grain barley, whole grain brown rice flour, corn gluten meal, whole dried eggs, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, fish meal, flax meal, sweet dried whey, vitamin E supplement, animal plasma, salt, potassium chloride, vitamin A acetate, D activated animal sterol (source of vitamin D3), DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), menadione sodium bisulphate complex (source of vitamin K), vitamin B-12 supplement, calcium pantothenate, niacin supplement, riboflavin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, folic acid, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, zinc sulfate, manganous oxide, sodium selenite, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, dried lactobacilus acidophilus fermentation product, corn germ meal, dried kelp, dried tomato pomace, yeast culture, monosodium phosphate, sodium sulfate, ferric sulfate, magnesium oxide, cobalt sulfate, cane sugar, di methionine, pyridioic acid, yucca schidigera extract, algae meal, diatomaceous earth, cobalt choline citrate complex, ferric choline citate complex, calcium pantothenate, copper choline citrate complez, magnesium amino acid chelate, zinc amino acid chelate, calcium amino acid chelate, iron amino acid chelate, manganese amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate, cobalt amino acid chelate, thiamine mono nitrate, ferrous carbonate, amylase, cellulose, maltase, phytase, protease, lipase, B. Bifidum, L. Plantarus, S. Faesium, L. Acidophilus, L. Salibaius, mixed tocopherols, citric acid, ascorbic acid, lecithin, rosemary extract, artificial flavors. Anita Rae Glider USA 149 Posts I’m sorry it took me so long to get back to this. My life has been crazy. Anyway, TY for posting the ingredients. I have to agree with Rita. When you look at that, there are some really good things down at the bottom of the ingredients in the recipe. OK, remember that the largest amounts are listed first. And there you see soy, corn (aka glider candy), barley, brown rice and corn again. That means that the bulk of this is corn meal. Corn is cheap and gliders like it, but it is very high in sugars and low in nutrients. And corn is what we feed farm animals when we want to fatten them up. In my opinion corn should be a treat, not a foundation for a diet. I think this diet could be compared to feeding your children nothing but candy and then giving them vitamins to fill in the blanks. I say that with most of you knowing that I’m not a diet prude. I feed mine a huge variety of things that would shock most of you. But I would still not feed this stuff to my gliders. I need to be careful with the rest of this so I can protect sources. The Mill Breeders Project has been watching this for a while. We do know that there is a legal link between Perfect Pocket Pets and Association of Sugar Glider Veterinarians. We have legal documents that prove it. I can understand why Perfect Pocket Pets is trying to find Vets to associate with. It validates them. But can someone explain why a reputable Vet would associate with a mill broker company with a reputation for selling underage joeys, sick joeys and supporting mill breeders? Audra, I was told by someone else who also uses Dr. Brust that Happy Glider and the food he recommends is very similar. So, I opted to try Happy Glider instead. I use Happy Glider in the daytime and BML at night with fresh fruits and veggies and fresh protein. It hurts me to hear people call Dr. Brust evil. All I can say about Dr. Brust is that he was *wonderful* in helping with the rescues, as was Dr. Coleman at the Humane Society. Dr. Brust keeps gliders and loves them and his gliders are healthy and beautiful. He found a refuge for the untameable gliders with a good friend of his and he is neutering the males so that all nine of the gliders who seemed to be untameable can live out their lives in a large cage as a colony. He did not do any of this for profit and received none. I do not know what his reasons are behind what he does, but I know he is desperately trying to simplify glider diets so that it will be easier for more people to keep their gliders. I also know that he has a veterinary degree and I don't and that he has dedicated the past six years of his life to studying gliders almost exclusively. I respect his medical knowledge of sugar gliders, so I really feel lost and confused by all of this. All I can think, is that as bad as places like PP are they are a big step up from the place that supplies the most sugar gliders to our area. I don't know who the breeders are but they sell lots and lots of sugar gliders very inexpensively (around $100) at a weekend open market in Houston. They'll sell single gliders to anyone with the money to pay for them with no care information. A lot of Dr. Brust's patients are gliders that were purchased from this place and they are in serious shape when he sees them. Most of the people he talks to *claim* to be using BML, which they *say* they learned how to make from glider lists. Now, we all know that the correct recipes for BML are available on good glider lists, but we also know a lot of people come to us thinking they are using BML and it turns out to be some weird concoction that has little or no resemblence to BML because somewhere down the line every ingredient has been substituted for something else. Good people on this list are generally able to help but remember that Dr. Brust rarely hears the good -- only the bad. I would love to ask him to check out the list, but since he's been bashed so badly here, how can I ask him to do that? How can I show him what good things people do here when the talk about him has been so ugly?
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