This is similar to the other post with the same general idea:

Breeders SHOULD NOT (and Why)
AND
Breeders SHOULD (and Why)

example in the second post just to get started...

Breeders SHOULD NOT inbreed aggressively to spark mutations such as color.

Why? Inbreeding is not healthy. It can cause serious health problems and shorten the life of gliders and cause them suffering.

That's very true. Breeders should also not give false testimonials to potential customers, such as "they don't need to go to the vet" "They don't bite"...

Okay I do not agree with breeding for color. It is our excessive in -breeding that has caused alot of health issues in dogs,cats and other animals etc. I think that if we leave well enough alone we would have healthier pets. I do have a white face girl that I got from a breeder that had gliders that carried the gene. One girl was grey and one was white face. The only thing I notice is that she is really small for her age other than that she seems healthy. I don't know if there are these colors in the wild maybe and maybe not but to force a color isn't always in my opinion something moral!

Breeders should not in bred for any reason. My understanding is that can cause deformities.

However, we can say what they should and should NOT do till we are blue in the face and nothing will be done. Breeders are in it for PROFIT. We should also give guidelines of what a person can expect if they adopt from a "rescuer"....seems some people calling themselves rescuers are in fact breeders. In Fl. there is someone charging $175.00 for a glider..saying she is a rescuer. I told the person who was thinking of getting one....a rescuer does NOT charge that kind of price. To be sure it was not a scam.
I would love to see on our welcome page a map (such as what was done for vets)..listing true rescuer people that we know...with names, address, ph#, e mail.

Code of ethics post have been posted on many of the forums. You'll find many agree with several of the recommendations- it's keeping up with who really does stick to the code of ethics. You'll get some who tell you one thing and do another or some who justify why breaking certain recommendations are accepted.

It's not a question of Ethics - it's a question of Who is practicing the Code of Ethics!!

Right Nancy, and I understand that sentiment. I think this is nonetheless a good exercise for THIS site to help raise awareness of ethics and to get our members to weigh in on these topics. It would be good to publish a document (living or otherwise) that we can refer to and also propose to a more formal body was this industry matures.

As to whom is practicing it.... If there is a code of ethics, and we think someone is operating outside of it, at least we can refer to it and ask that person to comply.... And we can also use it as a guideline for who we want to acquire gliders from and at least understand the issues so we ask the right questions.... I hope this is a worthwhile persuit..

I wasn't downing the start of this thread. Just commenting that you'll find posts just like this on other boards. I think it's great for each board to have them.

One thing to also note- Suggested Codes of Ethics are not just meant for Rescues & Breeders. I think everyone should uphold many of the suggested ethics.

Experianced dog breeder here. But, only dogs. Breeding practices have a lot in common no matter the species.
1. Inbreeding can actually be a positive thing its one way of keeping bloodlines pure from gentic defects, but as in dogs the reccomendation is for one incident of inbreeding to occur between mother and son or father and daughter every six generations. So its not that often

2. Breeders should have the best interest of the species and their pair at heart.

3. Limit the breeding constant breeding is to hard on anything let alone a 5 ounce sugar glider

4. Keep track of where your babies go. Contracts requiring them to inform you of a move. The babies can never be resold only to returned to you as the original breeder. This can be hard to follow through with. I f you are serious breeder heres what I reccomend, get an attorney you can just pay yearly adn not by case. Most attorneys have PIs that work for them. Once a year we do a location check on all of our babies to make sure they are at the residence and they have maintained ownership. A few will break contract, sue them. I did.

5. Make gift packs to go with your babies, packets on their care, lists of phone numbers and websites that may be of importance. Most importantly a phone number they can reach you 24/7. Example i have a cell phone for that purpose only. Its like our household red phone

6. Go with your gut instinct

7. Trust the animal they can tell more about a person than we ever could. Example if my puppy shys from you or is nervous or refuses contact you do not buy. If my female acts like something is wrong you leave the premises immediantly or she will escort you out

8. Be truthful and straight forward if you want to ask a question but it seems out of line but it purtains to the animals well being or pential new home ask anyway. I have even required drug tests and backround checks, if I get a bad vibe. It paid off in one incident the man was convicted of animal cruelty.

9. Never meet someone and let them take your pet in the same day as odd things they said or did might pop in your head after they leave

10. If you have children ask what they thought of the people (not if they want them to adopt your baby) Children often see and hear things we don't

11. Vet referances, if they have no pets to have a vet referance they must provide five non relative referrances they have known for at least 5 years no exceptions

This might seem quite harsh and strict but all my pups are sold before they are 5 weeks old. I can rest easy at night knowing I am doing all I can to ensure their safety happiness and health.

I only have one thing to add to this as I am NOT a brreder..I am a rescuer.
However I have seen time and time again where a breeder will continue to breed a pair even though they reject everytime..
I think that if a pair rejects even once that the pair should not be forced to breed again...tey obviously dont want to be parents.

I do like to learn the flip side o rescuing though so I will follow this thread just wont post much.

*Breeders SHOULD NOT inbreed
*Breeders should NOT give false testimonials
*Breeders should NOT lie about color
*Breeders should NOT breed unless total background on the pair is know.
*Breeders should be knowledgeable
*Breeders should stay up with the regulations
*Breeders should make sure new owners have the nesseties before giving the gliders to them.
*Breeders should NOT over breed a pair.


oh im sure theres more but i will have to think about it.

A simple question I understand the thought of inbreeding is disgusting but naturally what do you think happens? They are a colony animal. The majority are born and die in their colony, Do you think they know they are inbreeding?

quote:

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Originally posted by LuckyGlider

Right Nancy, and I understand that sentiment. I think this is nonetheless a good exercise for THIS site to help raise awareness of ethics and to get our members to weigh in on these topics. It would be good to publish a document (living or otherwise) that we can refer to and also propose to a more formal body was this industry matures.

As to whom is practicing it.... If there is a code of ethics, and we think someone is operating outside of it, at least we can refer to it and ask that person to comply.... And we can also use it as a guideline for who we want to acquire gliders from and at least understand the issues so we ask the right questions.... I hope this is a worthwhile persuit..

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Well everything starts with just an idea. So let me say something about an idea you had. You can start the sugar glider code of ethics and they people can willingly participate. If they are truly just a breeder for healthy gliders this would be a good way to show potential buyers you are for the health and well being of the gliders. This may help put mills out of business as the popularity grows and buyers look into this the will start asking breeders, Do you belong to the Sugar Gliders Code of Ethics Foundation? You could list active members where they are located and have the power to reject their membership if you find they are not in compliance, and have failed to heed the warnings you give them. This is probably the best idea I have heard yet. Go Lucky

Well if you decide to do it, let me ask to be the first in line to join and help premote the awarness.

You rock!!

I dont really think the animal cares if they inbreed or not. I do know if a joey is born weak, or something is wrong with it( which inbreeding causes) they will dispose of it.

quote:

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Originally posted by anjuli503

I dont really think the animal cares if they inbreed or not. I do know if a joey is born weak, or something is wrong with it( which inbreeding causes) they will dispose of it.

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actually Jett or Ko has a colony of gliders with way more females than males. The females are all the one males daughters and he doesn't breed with her.

They are also in a more natural environment and a much larger cage. In the states here we force them in small cages and are usually giving them high protein diets. What else do they have to do?

You guys are doing a great job on this thanks so much!!

Nancy said something really important here:

quote:

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Originally posted by jacknsally

One thing to also note- Suggested Codes of Ethics are not just meant for Rescues & Breeders. I think everyone should uphold many of the suggested ethics.

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That is to say that none of us are beyond ethics and the ideas we come up should apply across the board.

I am encouraged by this dialog and so happy we are getting a lot of good input.

Inbred joeys can and do have deformities and illness...I have one that was a Son to Mother inbred with a heaert murmur...think of it this way...would you have a child by your Dad or mother or sibling?

breeders should give a background of the glider when you come to see it, not just say "heres the glider, wheres my money".
a breeder should always be there for questions you might have and worries about your new pet.
a breeder shouldnt over-breed until the poor gliders are worn out.

quote:

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Originally posted by psychosissy

Inbred joeys can and do have deformities and illness...I have one that was a Son to Mother inbred with a heaert murmur...think of it this way...would you have a child by your Dad or mother or sibling?

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ok fair assumptoin but did your vet tell you heart murmurs are common genetic trait? Can you factually say it is from inbreeding? Can you also say that there was no other inbreeding done close to this generation? The point of no inbreeding was because so many people are doing it for desired color traits. But, inbreeding naturally takes place in nature. No, we would not encourage people to inbreed but if you believe in god how did we all derive from adam and eve with out inbreeding?

I got hold of a rescue runt boy who is genetically blind. The breeder realized this and castrated him immediately so there was no chance of spreading his seed. Lied to the buyers saying it was a special blue-eyed sugar breed. He ended up as a female at the exotic shelter and then passed on to me to rescue and rehome. I decided to keep him as he is special needs. Hes living a pretty good life now but hes a biter and his eyes will keep him that way I think. I am lucky in that he is healthy so far.

At any rate, a common example of inbreeding. A lot of breeders will just kill their malformed births and nobody is the wiser. At least this guy found a chance at a life somehow; prolly due to the breeders financial greed. "Waste not, want not"

My comment would be be if I had my way Sugar gliders would only be able to be sold with a mandatory cage sizes and never sold as a single glider unless to be homed with someone who already has one.

Although I have three Sugar Gliders as pets and live in Melbourne, Australia I would like to see Sugar Gliders outlawed as domestic pets. I love my pets but would be willing to surrender them if they outlawed them.
I truly believe they would be much happier in the wild and should never become a domestic animal. My true wish is that they never become popular as they are in the states. I hope that we do not see commercial breeders popping up here.

I think many problems arise because people have small cages, unhealthy diets and inbred gliders. Then there are those who do not take there animals to the vet when they get sick. I'm not attacking anyone here but it breaks my heart when people think these will be a pet they can keep in a corner and not spend to much on. As most of us know this isn't the case.

I have followed a few stories about breeders and seen the cages lined up against the walls in there homes. It just doesn't seem to be about the gliders but about the money. The recommended cage sizes here for gliders to be rehabilitated are quite large and this should perhaps be considered by someone who is serious about what is best for the Sugar Gliders when breeding.

Recommended cage sizes for two Sugar Gliders is minimum floor space is 2,500cm (82.02feet), maximum height is 100cm.(39.9inches) Then increase floor area by 1,000 cm (32.81 feet) per animal. This information can be found

herehttp://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nreninf.nsf/LinkView/B60B567FD0CF8A42CA256C19000EFCA3E7F8E4DBA5A6FDD04A256DEA0027A820

Ok you may say thats ridiculous and we couldn't fit that size cage anywhere. My comment to this then is don't breed.

Kazko your story about your blind suggie brought tears to my eyes. I crying right now partly out of happiness that you were able to rescue him so he was not destroyed. Bless your compassion... He helps to make the case that agressive inbreeding is a bad practice...

jett, your input on cage sizes is really a big one! I hate seeing them all lined up in those little boxes - just breaks my heart. You have a stronger constitution than me though when it comes to giving them up... I think I'd just curl up and die if I lost my babies (sniff). The very least we can do is to encourage good husbandry practices for the ones that are already in captivity. Thank you all so much for participating in this post as it is helping us all to get a perspective from so many angles.

Kazko, I'm with Lucky. A little teary eyed. That little guy is so cute. But your testimony about him and the picture really hits the point of this thread. Those little guys don't ask for the life those bad breeders allow them to have. I hate to think of any animal suffering needlessly. I know your little guy is not suffering now, but what if he had ended up in the wrong hands. Thank god he has a good daddy now

Kazco is my hero! You are very special to have a heart as so many people seem to lack conviction of.
Jett I agree and disagree with your opinion about the legality of the situation of gliders here in the states. I think 75% of gliders shouldn't be in the homes they are in, but the remainder live like gods.
Also about the cages Jett I think you made an excellent point about living conditions they are kept in. A reccomendation as it is very hard to find a cage that large or that is attractive, here's what my hubby is in process of....He contacted local carpenters and conmtractors and told them what he was looking for, asked for them to come up with designs. Then we picked the design and the contractor, he then composed a list of materials we have faxed to the vet to make sure everything was safe. This "cage" Will go to my ceiling(15') and will look more like furniture than a cage. This keeps an impressive look to your home and your gliders in a safe and happy enviorment. Honestly most people who have them in bad settings are just bad breeders like you said after money. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get the pics on here when it is done toshow what we are doing.

I do think native animals should be allowed to be kept as pets but only within thier native land. Many people are trying to raise the awareness of these animals, 99% of people will never see certain native animals unless it is in captivity, by allowing them in captivity and educating the public, hopefully people will be more aware of thier environment and how to preserve it. I do not believe tho that the rules and licenses are strict enough. There is also not enough inspections done on those who keep native animals.
By allowing native animals to be kept legally hopefully it prevents people from illegalally obtaining these animals from the wild.
Also certain people being able to keep these animals they can repopulate area that may have been devastated by fire etc. I know of one person who has been allowed by the Environment body to release animals where they have become scarce, he also supplies zoo's and sanctuaries so that the public can see thes animals.

I DO NOT agree with colour breeding.
Tootles
there are no such thing as a coloured breed in the wild,

Lady siren,
as a whole in the wild they do not inbreed there will be an alpha male and a alpha female the offspring are often pushed out of the group to start its own colony. If the alpha male dies then another male from a different are may come in and take over as the alpha male.

You mentioned dog breeding, often a breeder will obtain stock from overseas to help keeping the breed healthy etc, but with gliders this is not possible, all the breeding of gliders in the US come from inbred gliders because they are not able to obtain new lines.

Anjul
many glider are born weak etc and are rejected by the parents they are then raisedby the breeder who then will sell it later on, the parents rejecting it is often a sign that something is wrong with that animal, and yet the rejected glider is keptt alive and is often either bred from or sold for someone else to breed from passing its deformed genes onto the next generation.

With so many gliders or any animals in rescue i wish people would stop breeding and start helping the ones that are alread here. I believe in spaying and neutering your pets. Its really sad to see all the homeless animals out there. But its all about money when i got my 2 the breeder said she would give me $50 dollars for each baby i had and my boyfriend got excited and i said NO. I cant see selling a animal you cant trust alot of people to take care of them. My Sticks is neutered now and Japer is getting neutered this week or next. But Sticks did sneak one in on me hopefully its a girl.

Ladysiren..
MY Vet did a complete work up on my baby before He tld Me it was caued by inbreeding....


But that is neither here nor there.
Breeders should be responsible enough not to inbreed.

Rach, I loved:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rach

I do think native animals should be allowed to be kept as pets but only within thier native land.

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Do you have a spare room????? :-)

I understand a lot of what is being said here. Sometimes I see or hear things that makes me wish these animals had been left in the forests of AU. The mills here are horible with tiny cages, barely engough food to survive, no enrichment and no medical care. I know that sounds pesimistic but it's true. I honestly wish that we had the kind of laws here to protect gliders that you have in AU. BTW, I filled out the survey. hehe It didn't say that you at to live there to fill it out.