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Difference between Pml and Bml
Difference between Pml and Bml
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Mar 05 2007
08:05:54 AM
Can anyone tell me the difference health wise between these two diets? Eric do you know???
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Mar 05 2007
10:00:09 AM
Eric C Retired GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Eric C's Photo Album Eric C's Journal TX, USA 2321 Posts
I don't know much about the health aspects of PML, only that it is closer in formulation to what was originally used in Australia. The "P" stands for the person that uses the name "pockets" on sugarglider.net, so she would be best to answer any of your questions. I don't think she's a member here.

What little I do know is that there are people that have gliders that won't eat BML, but will eat PML. If you would like to talk to someone that has had issues with BML, send me a private message and I'll let you know where to contact the person so you can ask what differences occurred in the gliders after they changed to PML.

The PML diet generally listed on many pages is incomplete, the mix recipe can be found at that link. What's missing is what else to feed, according to Pockets this is her ratio of items to feed:
quote:

50% PML
50% Insectivore/Carnivore mix (boiled chicken organic ,Insectivore-Fare, bisquits, very select deli, etc)
5-10% treat foods & this would also include fruits,& veggies, acacia gum, pollens, etc



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Mar 07 2007
03:54:21 AM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
Just to let you all know I am very disappointed as I emailed Pockets and asked for the entire PML diet because I couldn't find it published anywhere. Debbie just emailed me back and said that it has never been published.

That was it!

She didn't give me what I asked. What is it with BML and PML that the guys that helped develop these diets don't want to share information?

Time to find a good diet for your gilders.
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Mar 07 2007
07:25:32 AM
moorie Glider 131 Posts
I've always found Debbie very helpful. I know she is all for the naturalistic keeping of suggies. The reason she hasn't published the WHOLE diet is because it's complicated and it's not easily accessible to those in the US or the UK.

She grows her own Australian flora and what she can't grow she has shipped in even for just lining their nests with and making toys. She feeds as per the gliders natural seasonal needs (ie increases protein in spring).

I have HUUUUUUUUUGE respect for Debbie, she isn't up her own butt, she's not interested in glory. All she's done is offer an alternative to bml. Another thought is choloestrol, I know that she has reduced the amount of egg in her mix because of the concern of high fat causing the little white fatty deposits (xanthomas) which incidently don't just affect the eyes, Fatty deposits are left on the liver too!!

PML is also approved my the Marsupial Society of Australia :)
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Mar 07 2007
10:25:07 AM
Dancing Glider Visit Dancing's Photo Album USA 179 Posts
Pockets had done more research on gliders and marsupials than anyone I know. She has a vast library of books (all of which she has read) on gliders/marsupials.

The full PML diet is NOT a diet 99.9% of people would undertake because as mentioned, she grows much of her own items and has quite a bit imported from Aussie. Debbie has fed her diet to her gliders for years and years yet was reluctant to share it with others simply because most are just to lazy to do the work and the research to know what to feed in what quanties.

She has spent the time doing her research and she is generally willing to HELP other's research but don't expect to be handed the answers.

There are so many people that are new to gliders (having them less than 3-4 years is new to me) that just expect all the answers handed to them and when it isn't, they just want to gripe and complain. I just don't understand. YES it is time consuming to do your own research but if you are not willing to, don't complain when you aren't handed the answers.
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Mar 07 2007
10:38:10 AM
kazko Little Bunny FooFoo GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kazko's Photo Album kazko's Journal TX, USA 6739 Posts
And here I thought the purpose of these forums was to help people and share information. I think I'll rethink the website. Anybody want to play poker?

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Mar 07 2007
10:50:20 AM
moorie Glider 131 Posts
Is Pockets a member of this forum then?
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Mar 07 2007
10:54:30 AM
roflmbo2 Glider GliderMap Visit roflmbo2's Photo Album IL, USA 118 Posts
Self mutilation and bonding techniques are discussed at length. So why do diets have to be so top secret? Did we do all the research before we gave our children food for the first time or did we rely on the experts? As in our mothers, friends and oh yes their doctor. We didn't spend hours upon hours studying every single little ingredient that went into their bodies. It wasn't a secret stock of information that only a select few were entitled to. I thought this was supposed to be a place we could come to ask questions, get information and by all means not be criticized for wanting some help. If people truly want to improve the world of pet gliders, as they say they do, then all the info should "handed over" instead of pointing them to do their own research. A person doesn't have to be a scientist to have a child and it certainly isn't a requirement to own a glider. There is too much information out there that "seems" ok but is based on mere opinion. Passion for gliders aside, I just don't understand all this hostility about sharing information. Truth be told, it is better to properly educate before sickness or injury occur. This would probably help prevent many of these gliders needing to find new homes. Isn't this what we all want?
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Mar 07 2007
10:59:14 AM
Rita Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Rita's Photo Album Rita's Journal MO, USA 12214 Posts
This whole "do your own" research thing is just absurd. No wonder so many medical and dietary mistakes are being made in the glider community. If no one is willing to share - then how in the <censored> can we ever go forward????

There are Suggies suffering due to this. How can you all publicly say you care? Im sorry - but I just don't understand this at all. Will someone explain it?

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Mar 07 2007
12:09:54 PM
Dancing Glider Visit Dancing's Photo Album USA 179 Posts
Ok...simple enough...

The diet plans are made available. Many of these diet plans have been used for YEARS and for generation after generation. If a diet is bad, then it will get many many bad reviews. Diets that have "proven" good (and I do use the term proven very loosely here as I don't believe ANY diet is truly proven) will have many people saying "this is what I have used for this long and with these results".

From there, I think it is up to the individual, if they are so inclined, to take the components of that diet plan and research it for themselves.

The diet plans I see, the ingredients are not secret. The ingredients are there for further research IF the person is so inclined.

There are so many variables involved even with a natural Aussie wild diet. The manna will vary from one location to another. To simply say, feed manna could be very misleading as well. To simply say, feed bugs, again, could be misleading. Yes, gliders in the wild eat insects but what types and in what quantities. Should we all be importing our bugs from Aussie? Ok, what kind of bugs and how many? Fly larve? Ok, from what type of flies?

I encourage people to do their own research. I also strongly encourage them to use one of the "proven" diets such as BML, PML, SunCoast's, etc that has been used successfully for years and years and generation after generation WHILE they are doing their own research.

The information provided with different diets, is intended to help out those not able/willing to research. They (and I mean the "proven" diets) have been formulated and tested for years so that there are choices available for those that want the easy fix.

If you aren't satisfied with the easy fix, RESEARCH on your own.
Take the ingredients of your diet and break it down. Find out what vitamins react to or enhance others. The basics are provided for you.

I do not feed one of the "proven" diets. I have done my research to learn and have decided on a diet plan for MY gliders. I'm having great results so far but it has only been about a year. I will say that any resues that come in to me get fed the Back to Basics BML plan. I do this because MY diet is still "experimental" and I trust the PROVEN track record I've experienced with the BML. I do not feed the BML to my gliders for several reasons, one simply has to do with cost. I have currently 55 gliders (19 of them are rescues that came in this past Sunday and they ARE on BML) I'm caring for and I simply can not afford to feed them all the BML. That is reality. I don't like it but that is the way it goes.
Another reason I do not feed BML to MY gliders is MOST of them will not eat any diet with honey in it. I've tried PML as well, and they do not touch it either. Through a process of elimination with the BML mix, I was able to narrow it down to the honey being the reason they won't eat it. And yes, I have tried several different types of honey including honey from Aussie.

When it comes to diets, any of them, regardless how proven the tract record, how well documented all the research, no matter how good the diet is, if your gliders won't eat it, it isn't any good for them.

What needs to be taken seriously is...there are simply foods that are NOT good for gliders. Hot Dogs, ham (usually cured with salt or sugar), high fat items such as nuts, pudding, peanut butter. Things like bird seeds that can get stuck in a gliders very tiny throat and/or cause impaction in their digestive track. Garlic, onions, chocolate, artificial sweeteners... Atleast I hope we can all agree on the things that SHOULD NOT be fed to gliders.
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Mar 07 2007
03:41:39 PM
Eric C Retired GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Eric C's Photo Album Eric C's Journal TX, USA 2321 Posts
I think you're all being too harsh on Dancing. She's been a member of this forum, as well as sugarglider.net, for 2 and half years, so that makes her an expert.

So what if there are no facts to back up anyone's claims? There is truthiness, and that's all you need!

I have no problems with BML only existing for 8 years. Sugar gliders have lived for 15 plus years on this diet and that's all anyone needs to know!

And so what if the "Back to Basics " version isn't the original that Bourbon got tested by an animal nutritionist that no one has ever heard of? That's a fact, and no one needs silly little facts. All you need to know is the truth that it's proven somehow!
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Mar 07 2007
06:01:38 PM
Dancing Glider Visit Dancing's Photo Album USA 179 Posts
I have only been on the internet for about 2 1/2 years. I had to do my initial research the old fashioned way, by READING BOOKS! But I have had gliders for over 9 years, coming up on 10. My oldest glider is also my first glider, Dexter. He is almost 12 yrs old and still in excelent health. He and his mate Dixie had 12 joeys over a 5 year time. Their first set of joeys were triplets. All three survived and THRIVED. Dexter and Dixie were on BML at that time. I have had over the years as a rescuer over 90 gliders come to/through my home. I have seen gliders that look to be on deaths door make remarkable recoveries ON BML.

CharlieH had a little glider named PacMan. When PacMan came to them he was dying from malnutrition. He was put on BML and lived to be 15 years 4 months (that is the glider I was refering to living 15 years).

I do not and never have claimed to be an expert. I have however intelligence and enough common sense to know how to research and come to my own decisions as to what is right and best for my gliders. Have I ever been wrong? Perhaps, most likely even. But I have NEVER had a glider get sick or die from ANY diet related issues. Matter of fact, I've only had three die in the past almost 10 years. I've never had one of my gliders get sick at all, not so much as a UTI. (though I've had rescues come in sick)

One was Nickolas. He was a year old when he died from unknown causes. My vet and I suspect possible birth defects because his mother at full weight was only a tiny 68 grams. He was her only joey.

The other two I've lost were both joeys. One was a twin from a rescued pair that came to me with joeys ip. The parents were fed bird seed, peanut butter and apples, honey for licky treats. The joeys were rejected. The one that died was only 6 grams. I hand raised the surviving joey (who started off at 8 grams) and he is still here with me.

The other joey was born to my Spryte. Spryte had the joey ip when she broke her leg. She had to go through surgery and all the meds that went along with that. The joey came oop and lived about 15 minutes. The effects of the anesthsia and pain meds caused her to not develope as she should have. Her head was of normal size but her body was severely under developed. On the high side, Spryte had a pin put in her leg and the leg was saved. This was a first for gliders to anyones knowledge.

I have dealt with self mutilators and very neglected, malnurished gliders. I had one come to me almost completely bald. He had been on Darcy's diet. Now, he is just gorgous.

Am I an expert, I say no, but I am EXPERIENCED. What's your experience?

Edited by - Dancing on Mar 07 2007 06:09:12 PM
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Mar 07 2007
06:36:59 PM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
Deal me in Kazko, I want to play!
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Mar 07 2007
07:33:06 PM
mel Goofy Gorillatoes Visit mel's Photo Album mel's Journal TX, USA 2464 Posts
There should be rules to this game. Yall are not playing nice!
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Mar 07 2007
09:31:32 PM
kazko Little Bunny FooFoo GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kazko's Photo Album kazko's Journal TX, USA 6739 Posts
I think I could just make do with a recipe. Anyone sharing?
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Mar 07 2007
11:38:01 PM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
I had been emailing back and forward with Debbie (Pockets). However her diet is based on a book written by Peter Pruess on the Leadbeater Possum. The Leadbeater mix in this book is the original very basic mix with no vitamins in it. The guy who made the diet Des Hackett had no medical, veterinary nor nutritional background what so ever. Debbie told me that the diet was developed from Des Hacketts diet. The only research on des's notes can only be gleaned from this book because that is all that is available.Debbies has spoken to the Author but Peter has nothing more to give than what is in the book. i have met with Peter Pruess on several occasions. Des Hacket did have some notes on sugar Gliders but Peter said they have not turned up anywhere yet. the Leadbeater possum mixture was not formulated for Gliders but was lucky enough that they are a similar animal to the Leadbeater and have similar nutritional needs.

The Australian Marsupial society that Debbie is a member of is certainly not as knowledgeable as The Healesville sanctuary which has been breeding gliders since the early 1960's the SA MS was founded in 1981. The laws in this state that the society is in are very slack as far as native animals are concerned.

The other thing is any one can start up a society like this in Australia.
it doesn't mean that everything they say and do is right. Opinions always have a huge influence on how these group[s run. you only need a few predominant people in the group to sway the way things go.
The Victorian Marsupial society at leasts has members on the Department of sustain ability's board that looks at Native animals and licensing.

Having said this I believed that Debbies nectar mix looks sound but again she is one who would not tell me who the Australian vets were who approved her diet as she told me she has had the approval from many Australian Vets.(Again not all Australian vets are up with native animals, they are far and few.)

Then I visited the SA Marsupial society site and the so called PML is the diet they have used and recommended for longer than PML has been around. I believe PML is not Debbies own recipe at all.
I don't understand why Debbie will not share her diet in its entirety even if it is hard to copy all the natural plants she has added to it.

Everyone says to do your research but if these guys will not validate their research then how can I clarify that it is sound.
Debbie told me she has outgrown the glider forums. She is not a member here and I am only stating fact that she will not give me the whole diet.
My respect for Debbie and Bourben is not going so well as secrets in the Glider community does not better the health of our furry friends but hinders it. The research I have been been doing is just unearthing that these guys are not quite as squeaky clean as they profess to be in that they don't appear to have the backing they said they have or if they do why will they not share that information.

I will not validate these diets nor would I recommend them in the future.


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Mar 08 2007
08:02:10 AM
mel Goofy Gorillatoes Visit mel's Photo Album mel's Journal TX, USA 2464 Posts
So WHICH diet founders will give you thier resources or approved contributors?
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Mar 08 2007
06:04:28 PM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
Quote from Mel
quote:
So WHICH diet founders will give you thier resources or approved contributors?



The Healesville Sanctuary does they will give you all the information you need. I'm sure other zoos would do the same.

This is because they have nothing to hide and want people to have healthy animals in captivity.
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Mar 08 2007
06:30:11 PM
tootles Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap tootles's Journal 1981 Posts
Back to the topic I started now please! Can anyone tell me the health difference between these two diets.People that have tried them both please comment.
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Mar 08 2007
08:05:06 PM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
Here is Pockets. PML nectar

1 & 3/4 CUPS OF WATER I PREFER BOTTLED WATER

1 & 3/4 CUPS OF HONEY I USE DIFFERENT TYPES, INCLUDING A FEW
Australian types, if using Australian honey
I lesson the amount to 1 & 1/2 cup.

2 eggs - Hard-boiled & Shelled- egglands-best organic
(brown eggs)

1 ounce = 30 grams Wombaroo high protein supplement
( I change WHPS amount seasonally, but you
do not need to )

and here is the Australian Marsupial societies nectar mix
for the entire diet check oit the australian Marsupial Web site.

An excellent supplement which can be added to the above diet is a glider mixture, which consists of honey, water, hard boiled egg, sustagen, pollen, Wombaroo Small Carnivore, Wombaroo High Protein Supplement and high protein baby cereal.

although not exactly the same the basic mix is still their.

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Mar 08 2007
08:11:22 PM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
It should always be good to have discussions on diets after all the health of our gliders should always be important. Too many vitamins is just as bad as not enough. Getting that balance is what we are all trying to achieve.

Secret Glider business is not good. Fine to encourage your own research but not sharing with others doesn't make sence to me.
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Mar 08 2007
08:23:19 PM
Jett Face Hugger GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Jett's Photo Album Jett's Journal Australia 681 Posts
The differences I can see just in the nectar mixes as you cannt compare the full diets as Pockets full diet isn't available.

Just comparing the nectars with Australian diets that they proclaim there diets are based on, BML is extremely high in the Iron content and the vitamins are also very high.
PML does not have as much protein and vitamin content as the Australian diets. I have based this on The Australian Marsupial diet and The Healesville sanctuary diet.
Remember I', only comparing the nectar mix. the fruit and vegetables and proteins added with the rest of the diet will also increase these ratios.

One of the things to remember when looking at the Australian diets is that they have a lot of protein added to mimic what gliders eat in the wild. Sugar Gliders use a lot of energy foraging for food when they can travel distances up to a couple of miles a night. In captivity in Australia they are often kept in large aviaries. The zoo's and Societies also encourage breeding so look at lots of protein in the diet to encourage breeding.
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Mar 08 2007
09:47:07 PM
tootles Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap tootles's Journal 1981 Posts
Thanks Jett for the information I currently am feeding BML but I always wondered about some of the other diets. I just like everyone else I want to hear the pros and conns from both.
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Mar 08 2007
10:47:48 PM
mel Goofy Gorillatoes Visit mel's Photo Album mel's Journal TX, USA 2464 Posts
I like the ring of TML! MML just don't get it!
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Mar 09 2007
11:30:33 AM
Eric C Retired GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Eric C's Photo Album Eric C's Journal TX, USA 2321 Posts
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Difference between Pml and Bml

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Difference between Pml and Bml