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LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts     TX, USA
5266 Posts
WARNING: If you don't care to know the truth, skip this. But if you are interested in reading something REAL that cuts through the "cool" smokescreen, here it is...
1. Just watch your gliders change color over time. We have two colonies (no we don't sell them) and I can tell you they change over time. Cinammon can turn to grey. White-faced can turn to brown or grey. So don't think the color will necessarily stay the same. It's foolish to pay a premium for color for this reason alone. Many of you will KICK YOURSELVES in six months or a year from now for paying a premium for color. Or worse yet, take it out on the innocent glider just because you feel ripped off and are too immature to deal with it. Just remember, it's never their fault you paid a premium for them. It's your fault.
2. Charging a premium for color promotes in-breeding, quick-buck behavior and wanna-be clueless breeders. Wanna-be clueless breeders quickly get bored with it, go broke doing it, and then more gliders end up homeless or destroyed. And the sirens' call of charging a premium for color is one of the evil greed-demons that encourage these wanna-be clueless breeders. And the in-breeding that is so often practiced to get *birth defects* like color variation just creates more sickly and malformed gliders who are discarded and destroyed. It's just sick stuff that happens to get you your silly color variation. Sick. It's blood money and it's just wrong. Too many suggies die or are malformed to finally get the "correct" birth defect of color variation. So buying for color promotes breeding for color. And breeding for color creates amoral Dr. Frankensteins. So the "cool" color you want comes at a high price - not only the money part that's high, but the quality of life and death caused by improper husbandry to get the color you are looking for. Not cool at all.
3. Color is just a fad on top of an *already* bad fad. Sugar Gliders are already suffering from the "fad" pet syndrome. "Oh look they are so cool I just have to have one." Yeah for a month or two and then they get ignored or ill-treated and end up here for sale or dead. If you can't love and nuture a glider - no matter what color - for the 12-15 years they *should* live - just stay out of it and do them all a favor. And do the rescues a favor by having one or two less to rescue when the "cool" wears off. Try to resist the strong pull of the "fad" pet syndrome. These creatures are not like hamsters that you can just ignore and throw food and water at every once and a while. Unlike hamsters, suggies are a real committment. Think ahead about college, trips around the world with a backpack, partying for days at a time, your first job requirng lots of travel, weekend getaways with a new boy or girlfriend, or new spouse who hates pets, etc. If you can't look ahead at things like this over the next 15 years, then you are not being responsible to your pet or yourself. They want to live for 15 years in a steady, safe, predictable environment. They want an owner who cares enough about them to be there for them that long instead of ending up in this classifieds section.
This is the truth and the truth is buying and selling for color is not cool. A lot of you may have already bought or sold for color not knowing these things. That's maybe not your fault. But now if you've read this you know better now. Please consider these things before buying *or* selling for color. The defenseless and innocent suggies of the world thank you for your humanity.
1. True colored gliders are the ones with a white variation that will not change over time. (IE: white faced blondes, BEW, Albinos, moseics) White faces mean that they do not have the bar under their ears and they cannot just get those. Now, I agree that a cinni or black beauty or whatever can turn grey, but the white variations do not change! 2. Charging a premium actually does the opposite. We have seen this with the white faced gliders. When they were $600 for a first generation, we rarely saw one for sale and when it was it was from a well known breeder with an extensive background and lineage on them who quized the new owners extensivly. Now that a first generation is around $300 we see small "hooby" breeders breeding them with no records on them and no care given to who buys them which in turn makes more people who get into it to make $$ a chance to because they can afford them easier. As with health, you get what you pay for and should only buy from well known good breeders. I've actually found my white faced gliders to be much healthier then my grey gliders when they first come to me and have on average lived longer. I think in general, we should raise the price of all gliders sold so that the average person cannot afford to have them and if they truely wanted one and did the research and saw they lived that long and still wanted one, the amount of money they would have to save would give them a kick of reality and not as many impulse buys would happen. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts Yes, maybe raising the price all around would shake-out the impulse buys and attract more serious owners, that would be good. But in reality, supply and demand theorem kinda gets in the way of that. The "reverse" being true sounds like a rationalization. Color variation is still a faddish inclination on top of already faddish pets. So that doesn't go away until we stop differentiating (price or otherwise) with color. But charging a premium for color *alone* accentuates a poor motivation. And the fact that clueless breeders blow through innocent lives (with destroyed gliders, or malformed gliders as "collateral damage") to get there makes it worse. All in all, the point I was making is that it is morally reprehensible to breed for color and BUYING for color only supports that. It is a continuum, where there is culpability on behalf of breeder, buyer and (re)seller. The culpability is spread out amongst all of these people, so the guilt of propigating the premium is spread out. But it's still just wrong. Raising the price of all gliders is a nice thought that would magically solve some of the problem, but it masks the real problem: greed and ignorance. Kissed82 Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1097 Posts So are you saying we should lower the price? Then any old Joe could get one and they would see it as something like a hampster and totally not care for it at all. Raising the price will only deter the impulse buys. It will not hinder the people who really want one and save for it. (and most that will do that will care for the glider like they should) I also do not see celebs getting gliders for any reason. They like bigger and flashier animals that dont need to be caged. FYI: Paris's Kink was illegal and was taken from her and put into a educational facility. Also, she bought her brother a glider and from everything I've read, it was spoiled and well taken care of until it also was taken for being illegal in CA. did you know Frank from trading spaces has 12 gliders and knows Mary and Charlie in TX who rescue and is friends with them. So, not all celebs are bad...
Some photos from our members Ahsaehr Goofy Gorillatoes  USA 3478 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
So are you saying we should lower the price? Then any old Joe could get one and they would see it as something like a hampster and totally not care for it at all. Raising the price will only deter the impulse buys. It will not hinder the people who really want one and save for it. (and most that will do that will care for the glider like they should) I also do not see celebs getting gliders for any reason. They like bigger and flashier animals that dont need to be caged. FYI: Paris's Kink was illegal and was taken from her and put into a educational facility. Also, she bought her brother a glider and from everything I've read, it was spoiled and well taken care of until it also was taken for being illegal in CA. did you know Frank from trading spaces has 12 gliders and knows Mary and Charlie in TX who rescue and is friends with them. So, not all celebs are bad...
I didn't imply that they all were, but many of them can't handle themselves properly. In my opinion the price is pretty high in some places. I paid 250 for my first glider and while I was signing papers for him I don't know how many people walked by and said, "I want one, how much are they?" and just ran at the price. Do you know how many people can just walk by a booth at a fair and spend 250 dollars on a single pet, knowing they need a cage as well. Most of the gliders for 100 or less are either from previous owners who cannot care for them anymore or are from small breeders or "adoption fees" for rescues in many areas. Forgive me I was an impulse buyer, and I actually learned to take care of my gliders, I bet is you asked the sugarglider.com community you'd find a large portion of us were impulse buyers who wanted to meet other owners and learned how to take care of them. I hate promoting inbreeding and color variations....it's insane too. Do you notice how many people pay the 500 dollars for their gliders and how they don't have anything else, sometimes can't even afford vet bills? Actually, colors such as white tip and white faced blondes occur more so in nature than captivity. (especially the white tip) They did not have to be breed for or inbreed. ThePastafarian Joey 13 Posts The ethical breeders know the lineage of their gliders and would NEVER jeopardize the health of their gliders for a color. Please show me ONE example of a glider that was unhealthy due to its being breed for a color variation from a REPUTABLE breeder! I DARE you to go make this post on GC and see what your response would be. Your little pep squad would have to follow you over there because this argument is based on your OPINION. Do you have the research and proof from necropsies to give your theory any validation or credence? Yes there are bad breeders out there that take advantage, but why not get on the mill breeders that are pumping out the classic grays? THOSE are the gliders who are suffering the most! There are TONS of "normal" colored gliders that are being inbred all for greed. Go get off your high horse and do something to help out! PocketPrincess Joey 17 Posts Yeah, at GC people actually want proof and research. It's really not that great when everyone agrees on everything all the time. There is room for debate and if Pasta wants to challenge you, I say GO FOR IT! Breeding for color is not bad at all if done right. Hey, even your mill breeders that are going for color spend more time and have colors that are treated better than their standard counterparts. True colors do not change over time! White-faced gliders are based on solid genetics and they will not turn grey. Just like a lue will not turn grey. Charging extra does not promote inbreeding in good breeders. Different colors occur naturally in the wild, and I bet you didn't know that according to Australia Zoo, sugar gliders are SUPPOSED to have a white tip. It is not a birth defect, it is a variation. Get off your high horse, step out onto a real board and get over yourself. Provide evidence from scientists and I might have to change a little of what I say. But, until you can prove what you are saying, you will have opposition. Maybe not from your groupies, but from people who have done this and people who actually breed gliders. Don't blindly follow someone, check out the other boards and find out what the suggie world is really like. You might be surprised. Ahsaehr Goofy Gorillatoes USA 3478 Posts quote:
Originally posted by PocketPrincess
Yeah, at GC people actually want proof and research. It's really not that great when everyone agrees on everything all the time. There is room for debate and if Pasta wants to challenge you, I say GO FOR IT! Breeding for color is not bad at all if done right. Hey, even your mill breeders that are going for color spend more time and have colors that are treated better than their standard counterparts.
True colors do not change over time! White-faced gliders are based on solid genetics and they will not turn grey. Just like a lue will not turn grey. Charging extra does not promote inbreeding in good breeders. Different colors occur naturally in the wild, and I bet you didn't know that according to Australia Zoo, sugar gliders are SUPPOSED to have a white tip. It is not a birth defect, it is a variation.
Get off your high horse, step out onto a real board and get over yourself. Provide evidence from scientists and I might have to change a little of what I say. But, until you can prove what you are saying, you will have opposition. Maybe not from your groupies, but from people who have done this and people who actually breed gliders. Don't blindly follow someone, check out the other boards and find out what the suggie world is really like. You might be surprised.
And ironically my fellow glider owners in Australia have white tipped, but not solid white and "mosaic" gliders, when they see pictures of the such they always mention how there is nothing like that there.. Also the gliders from the US are more likely from Indonesia. ThePastafarian Joey 13 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Ahsaehr
Sounds like you're the ones on your "high horse"
Granted the greys are also inbred and keep in mind almost ALL Gliders are inbred by now. If you guys have such a problem with glider gossip leave and don't waste your precious time posting on here. And if you're just going to come over here, degrade us and basically tell us we're retarded then you should just leave and keep your thoughts to yourself.
Ironically I don't see people posting on your precious GC that you're all stupid.
Where on earth did either myself or PocketPrincess call ANYONE stupid or retarded? Maybe you should reread my post. Mrs.King - I don't agree with how GC is run all the time, but that board is where most of the big color breeders are. I don't see any of them here. I just think that if someone is going to post how breeding for color is so amoral and unethical then both sides need to be presented. Sorry if my post came off rude, but I was just irritated. There are no facts to support LuckyGlider's statements. Ahshaer - Just because your Australian friend has never seen these color morphs in the wild doesn't mean the gliders in captivity that are breed for those colors are in any way unhealthy. For all I know your Australian friend works for the garbage company. Just because they're from Australia doesn't mean they spend time out in the wild looking for these gliders. How can anyone possibly know that NONE of these color mutations have happened in the wild? There's not. ThePastafarian Joey 13 Posts I implied nothing, you read what you wanted to read. I'm not saying I'm a color expert; I just think it unfair to demean all of the hard work that some breeders put into their programs, simply because others aren't as responsible. Necropsies can help identify genetic defects in our gliders, i.e. an elarged heart. I would think a necropsy would be more of a readily available procedure than DNA testing. PocketPrincess Joey 17 Posts It is rude, but I'm hormonal and angry that everytime someone has posted colored gliders for sale on here, that someone has to link to this thread. And, most of the time, there is no reason to post here because there is nothing that I have seen in any of these threads that has a bit of scientific evidence. Why don't you try exploring other places and get a feel for what is out there? But, telling people in the first post that this is basically the absolute truth is absurd. There is nothing wrong with breeding for a specific purpose. You aren't on the AKC websites telling them that purebred dogs are horrible and inbred, are you? Paying for color in gliders is just like paying the extra to have a purebred dog. You tell Tanya and Kris and the others that breed for color that they are doing something so horrible as to breed for a specific color. If you don't want a colored glider, don't buy one, but don't stop someone else from doing it because it is not wrong. There is nothing horrible with genetics. I'm not the color expert. But, go talk to one. Find out what breeding is about. The colored gliders are not suffering for this and they are not being inbred. Good breeders can track their lines for many generations and will not inbreed a glider. quote:
- I don't agree with how GC is run all the time, but that board is where most of the big color breeders are. I don't see any of them here. I just think that if someone is going to post how breeding for color is so amoral and unethical then both sides need to be presented.
Let's keep it this way. Since we don't want the breeders on here. We support trying to find good homes for recuse.
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