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Jessyp Joey  10 Posts
I know calcium is important but I'm having a few problems with it. When I got my gliders, the breeder gave me a little green bottle of RepiCal ( I think that's the name anyways) and said to sprinkle it on their food every night. Two questions: is that the right kind of calcium or does it matter? and how do I get them to eat it? They won't eat it when I sprinkle it on their fruits or veggies. Thanks!
Viva La Glider Joey USA 24 Posts Hi Candy - Lisa from SunCoast Sugar Gliders here! How are my grandgliders doing?! And hello to everyone else as well. I wanted to take a moment to address this issue of Repcal. It is important to use supplements to balance fruits and veggies we feed in the captive diet (as well as crickets, mealworms, etc), even if you are super careful of the Ca;Ph ratios. I've spoken to a lot of Drs over the years and they are in agreement that the supplements are necessary, and where there is not always agreement is how often the supps should be given. We choose to give a small amount daily for a couple of reasons. First off, we are breeding gliders, so maintaining high levels of nutrition is important for those mommies. Also its easier to feed a small amount daily than larger amount less often. Now one thing I've learned in our early years was that some gliders will not eat stuff with vits and calcium unless it is hidden super well. Hey, I've tasted them and the vitamins are definitely yucky and the calcium tastes like chalk. Then it was suggested to me by a zoo nutritionist that we use a third supplement, and we chose a formula recommended by this doc and we offer it under the name of Arnolds Choice Milk Replacer. Now this stuff tastes like cake mix. I mix two parts of the Arnolds Choice with one part Vionate and one Part Repcal ... You give about 1/8 teaspoon per two gliders (a very tiny amount). I no longer have to mix it in and hide it because the gliders love the taste of the Arnolds Choice. Now just last week, I got an email from a young lady telling me this didn't even work for her, but after a lot of discussion we discovered that she was mixing it in a 1:1:1 ratio instead of a 2:1:1 ratio and that made a HUGE difference. Now her gliders are happily eating their supplements. Its like using pill pockets or cheese to give meds to your dogs. Make the stuff they need into a "treat" and it will make all the difference in the world! kyro298 Glider Sprinkles     CO, USA 15262 Posts Candy Cuddle Bear FL, USA 8110 Posts Hi Lisa, your grandbabies, Sassy, Corky, Missy and Mehitabel are very spoiled! Mehitabel (the very crabby one) is a sweetheart but still crabs, from the bottom of the glider pile, if I wake them up during the day. She is just not a 'daytime glider' (equivalent to a human 'not a morning person) I feed them my blended diet, which I feel is similar to your weekend concoction, that has added human grade calcium in the mixture. That way I feel that every glider gets a proportional amount of the calcium based on their individual appetite. I always worried about one eating more and others eating less of the calcium - or none at all if they skipped the food the calcium and vitamins were sprinkled on (even when mixed properly with Arnold's MR.) For me, not stressing myself out over how much calcium each glider was consuming is a bonus) All of my gliders (11 total now) eat just about any fruit or vegetable I offer. (except frozen raspberries are totally ignored) Viva La Glider Joey USA 24 Posts Kyro, I absolutely 1000% agree with you. As I've stated, I have spoken to many vets. I have two vets in my family, one grew up on an exotic animal farm, and his wife is a nutritionist; and I have another family member who has been on the teaching staff of Cornell for years. In addition, I worked with a lot of other vets and animal nutritionists nationwide over the years. Every single one of them will also emphasize oversupplementation can be every bit as harmful as undersupplementation. I'm also hearing from vets that the homemade type diets are not working well in many cases. We posted parts of an unsolicited email from a vet in the newsletter we dropped last night. His claim is that most of the nutritional issues he sees are from homemade diet concoctions, because the fact is most people won't measure it all out and make it exactly as that which has been nutritionally tested (if they've been nutritionally tested at all). I've been following my plan for 11 years with a lot of gliders and have never had a case of ANY nutritional related illness, so I respectfully disagree with you that it is dangerous to make the statements I have made. I make them from a place of doctor confirmation and personal experience. Sugar gliders is all I do: 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I'm very passionate about these guys and continue to learn about them. And Candy, that is a concern for a lot of people that all the gliders are getting a fair share. You are not alone in that feeling. In habitats where I have food hogs, I'll sneak extra worms or some other treat to the others, so they feel special too. With any type of group-living animals, there is always a pecking order. That is just part of nature. To you wintersong, I think we have a pretty good idea of ranges of supplements that work well with gliders. And I don't think all Drs are in agreement on what amount is needed for even people where bazillions of dollars are spent on research. We are not likely to see that type of research for sugar gliders. Several years ago Dr. Ellen Dierenfeld did a study which has been published. The original intent of the study was to examine a lot more on the vitamin, mineral side of things, but what was not anticipated is that sugar gliders do not have enough blood in them to run all of the tests originally hoped for in the study. I lent the group a bunch of young males (same age) gliders to use in the study with the stipulation that they were not to be harmed. In order to even possibly get those answers, the studies would have to be sacrificial and then there still might not be enough blood to analyze. I just had my annual checkup and because I went over one of those big 10 year increments, they took 7 vials of blood ! I couldn't believe it. How many sugar gliders would it take to fill 7 vials? I hate to think about it. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts When I was new to gliders I was offering TOO MUCH calcium and it resulted in severe, painful constipation. I don't think over supplementation of calcium is a good idea at all.
Viva La Glider Joey USA 24 Posts I appreciate your honesty. There are not very many "people at Suncoast" and I know them quite well, so it's hard for me to understand why people would be posting that Suncoast has a problem with Glider Gossip - do you have links? Love to see them so I can get to the bottom of this! We have always been advocates of sugar glider message boards and forums, which we believe are a great way for people to share information. In fact, we regularly promote both GG and Glider Central to our newsletter audience and on our web site. For example, when the "sugar bear" thing got started, we told people to go to either board and see what people were saying: http://www.sugar-gliders.com/sugar-bears.htm
We have put ourselves - and our thoughts - out there for a long time now. I believe most are here for the good of the glider, and am sharing facts I've received from true experts in the field. I come as a friend and hopefully someone who can contribute to the knowledge base, particularly where new sugar glider keepers are involved. Catman Goose Catcher CO, USA 2670 Posts Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Slyo: Here's the thing. You and some others are going to say WELL MY VET SAID... And reiterate what you've just posted. Others will say WELL MY VET SAID PELLETS ARE FINE AS A MAIN DIET or MY VET SAID PELLETS ARE FINE AS PART OF A DIET. We all know the above to statements are a crock, but there ARE many vets out there who don't know as much as they think they do. Then you'll have some, like me who say MY VET SAID WITH A DIET LIKE PRISCILLA'S, HPW, ETC, THEY'RE JUST FINE, NO NEED FOR EXTRA CALCIUM... Some vets even say EXTRA calcium is bad. I agree. If we look at what excess does to humans and many other animals, wouldn't it suffice to say the same general rules would apply for gliders as well? BECAUSE we don't know that much about gliders, we can only say what we believe. As much as I stand behind Suncoast, they do many things I will never agree with, namely the hard food they sell. HOWEVER, I'll continue to support them as a business as a whole. I don't agree with Lisa/Suncoast's statement that a vet apparently made saying quote:
that most of the nutritional issues he sees are from homemade diet concoctions, because the fact is most people won't measure it all out and make it exactly as that which has been nutritionally tested (if they've been nutritionally tested at all).
As Catman said: quote:
Originally posted by Catman
I HATE diet posts!
There's not much that is TRULY known, so we go with what little we DO know, and what we have seen ourselves. slyo Super Glider USA 331 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Megs06
Slyo:
Here's the thing. You and some others are going to say WELL MY VET SAID...
And reiterate what you've just posted.
Others will say WELL MY VET SAID PELLETS ARE FINE AS A MAIN DIET
or
MY VET SAID PELLETS ARE FINE AS PART OF A DIET.
We all know the above to statements are a crock, but there ARE many vets out there who don't know as much as they think they do.
Then you'll have some, like me who say MY VET SAID WITH A DIET LIKE PRISCILLA'S, HPW, ETC, THEY'RE JUST FINE, NO NEED FOR EXTRA CALCIUM... Some vets even say EXTRA calcium is bad. I agree.
If we look at what excess does to humans and many other animals, wouldn't it suffice to say the same general rules would apply for gliders as well?
BECAUSE we don't know that much about gliders, we can only say what we believe.
As much as I stand behind Suncoast, they do many things I will never agree with, namely the hard food they sell.
HOWEVER, I'll continue to support them as a business as a whole.
I don't agree with Lisa/Suncoast's statement that a vet apparently made saying quote:
that most of the nutritional issues he sees are from homemade diet concoctions, because the fact is most people won't measure it all out and make it exactly as that which has been nutritionally tested (if they've been nutritionally tested at all).
As Catman said:
quote:
Originally posted by Catman
I HATE diet posts!
There's not much that is TRULY known, so we go with what little we DO know, and what we have seen ourselves.
no I agree with you.. My last vet told me it was ok to feed a diet primarily made of corn to my dog and that he would just get over his separation anxiety [which was severe enough to make my dog bleed if he could find a way to]. Vets are not nutritionists. Trust me-- I completely understand that. They don't specialize in animal nutrition and their job is not centered around that. I guess I just put that just to share what some might view as a more "expert" opinion. For me? I won't completely disregard what he told me because he actually was incredibly understanding and only told me to keep some on hand just in case I sway from HPW and she needs the extra calcium. He agreed about too much calcium being bad-- along with too little being harmful. In his opinion Pellets may not necessarily be bad but from the animals he's seen, "rubbish". He works with a sugar glider rescue, who constantly seem to have 30 sugar gliders on hand, and he sees and checks out all the sugar gliders that go through. He also explained to me, it would be up to me to decide what is best for my gliders and that one of the best known diets, BML, has been around for years, and has been successful, although he is no expert in that field. As far as diet goes, the only thing he really stressed to me and to be worried about the most is obesity-- because it happens quite often and it causes a whole slew of problems. I realize how my post sounded now-- and even this defense sounds kind of ridiculous.. I guess I only put "my vet said" because I do agree with what he says. Even if I know he is not a nutritionist or an expert in that field. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts As far as glider obesity, that's more an issue with gliders who are fed the 'whatever the hell is in the fridge' diet. A glider with goobies is normal? A fattie glider? Never heard of one that was also on a good diet. Viva La Glider Joey USA 24 Posts quote:
Others will say WELL MY VET SAID PELLETS ARE FINE AS A MAIN DIET or
MY VET SAID PELLETS ARE FINE AS PART OF A DIET. We all know the above to statements are a crock, but there ARE many vets out there who don't know as much as they think they do.
and quote:
As much as I stand behind Suncoast, they do many things I will never agree with, namely the hard food they sell. HOWEVER, I'll continue to support them as a business as a whole.
Meg06, you seem to be someone who prefers to rely on science rather than opinion to make decisions. Are you saying you have evidence or direction from vets who specialize in exotics, or professionals responsible for feeding exotics at zoos or similar habitats, that "all pellets are bad"? Just trying to clarify your position. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Unfortunately there's not much science behind keeping gliders as pets. I do prefer to live behind science rather than a 'he said she said' game, but the fact of the matter is that there's not much science out there to aid in glider ownership. However, I took in 6 rescues a couple of months ago and though they were only given hard glider food as a daytime snack, a few pieces a day at most, they still, upon examination at their first vet visit while in my care, all gliders weaned from their parents had abrasions in their mouths. At their follow up visit, after I had taken the hard food away, which, just to note, I've NEVER been supportive of, the abrasions were merely small slivers (if you will), almost completely healed. Their coats are also much smoother and look brighter. On top of that, we've seen gliders whose necropsies show the damage of hard food. I personally believe, and we're all entitled to our own beliefs, that no matter how limited the hard food usage is, it's still being used. Bad food is still bad food, no matter the limits on its use. So as I said, I stand behind Suncoast and recommend them to people all the time. I'm subscribed to your newsletters and love the info. But the selling/offering of any hard food, even if you soften it, is not something I support/stand by. I also like to compare ingredients, and every hard food/pellet food 'for gliders' I've read up on I've shunned because the ingredients are sub par at best. I do happen to be the type of person who doesn't like to feed her animals something she wouldn't eat. At the same time, I'd never eat a meal worm yet my gliders love them. *shrug* I won't judge them. ;) Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Alden, yes, and I mentioned in another thread tonight that I don't like the ingredients of the 'mushy' stuff. My primary concerns are the ingredients and also how hard the food is. And yes Kylah, we as in stories like yours. I've heard similar stories from other people (don't ask me who, I've slept since then). WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts Meg, I ask again -- who is this "we" that has necrospy's showing that hard foods cause damage? (Other than malnutrition when fed alone.. We're not talking about hard foods being the primary diet here, we're talking about them being used WITH a good diet as a means of "just in case they wake up during the day" food). I, like many others, have trouble believing statements of that sort when "we" is some anonymous source.. As such, I posted on another board asking the Sugar Group if they had seen evidence of this... Here is the link to the post thesweetspot.forumotion.net/sugar-glider-chit-chat-f23/hard-foods-leading-to-damage-t848.htm
Also-- for clarification Meg, which sort of damage are you referring to? Are you referring simply malnutrition from being fed ONLY pellets? Are are you referring to...well, oral or internal injuries from the pellets? If you are referring to internal damages caused by the hard foods, this was the response I received from Val: "The SUGAR Group has NO (ZERO) necropsy reports that show any damage from hard foods. But we do have necropsy reports on gliders who have had recurrent periodontal disease or abscesses - and most of them are gliders who have never had a hard food in their lives." Viva La Glider Joey USA 24 Posts Meg, thanks for your general support of Suncoast even though we may disagree on diet! I’m not here to tell people what they should be doing as far as diet goes, and your personal experience certainly makes a difference, as do people’s own food preferences and lifestyles when it comes to diet choices. What I would prefer not to see though are these individual beliefs projected into broad statements like “we know all pellets suck” which I see quite a bit on all the message boards. If all pellets were bad, I would be out of business, since I have been feeding them for 11 years now and people certainly would not put up with gliders that were sickly, or had mouth damage, or looked unhealthy. In fact, of all the “U.S. diets” out there except BML, the Suncoast diet has been used the longest, over many, many generations, something people with a scientific view often look for. And just to be clear, I would absolutely agree with the statement “many pellets suck”. One of the reasons we developed the Wholesome Balance product is I, like you, was not real excited by “porcine by-products” as the main ingredient of the soft pellet. However, it was the only professionally endorsed (widely used in zoos and other habitats) pellet available that had animal protein as the main ingredient, something our experts insisted was mandatory. So, when we developed the Wholesome Balance product – by the way, with the person who had been in charge of the feeding programs at the St Louis and Bronx zoos, who has multiple PhD’s in animal nutrition – we chose human grade chicken as the main ingredient. I’m not saying any of this to try and convince you or anyone else that they should include pellets a part of their diet plan, or to criticize the diet anyone has chosen. I’m simply trying to make the point that it’s unfair to lump “all pellets” into any category, good or bad, and especially since many people with a great deal of professional experience feeding exotics insist that high quality pellet with animal protein as the main ingredient should be offered as *part* of a balanced sugar glider diet. If anyone is interested, there has been a professional diet study done on gliders, though many love to argue about the scope, duration, diets studied, etc. (big surprise). Disclosure: when a renowned animal nutritionist volunteered her services to conduct a study, but animals could not be found for the study, Suncoast stepped up and supplied the animals with the stipulation they not be terminated as a result of the study - I referred to this study in an earlier post. Our participation in the study has always raised “black helicopter” conspiracy theories, especially from people who were not around back then and do not understand the circumstances, but you are welcome to decide for yourself: http://www.sugar-gliders.com/Sugar-Glider-Diet-Study.pdf
Study compares BML, Suncoast, and a cereal-based diet, which were the three most popular diets at the time. If you are looking for "yes or no" answers you won't find them, but there are some interesting conclusions. And just to be crystal clear, nobody including me is claiming this study is definitive or "perfect". It simply is what it is - a very small study of a very specific (closely matched) group of gliders. valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes USA 3479 Posts I believe that the myth is being perpetuated that ALL pellets are inherently wrong. It is just that - a myth. Like most myths, there is SOME truth behind it. Where is the truth? Feeding a glider ONLY pellets, or pellets as a primary food source IS WRONG! Sometimes new glider owners have been so brainwashed by a Mill Breeder /Broker into believing that it is alright to feed only pellets and, say, a slice of apple, is a complete diet for their glider. This is WRONG. To THESE people, we need to sometimes come on strong and push the "NO PELLETS" until they understand that they need to be feeding BML, HPW, Priscilla's (Hi, Lisa! Thanks for joining the discussion!!) - or one of the others - as a staple food - NOT PELLETS! I'm willing to concede that the exception *might* be the Suncoast diet. I concede this exception because I do respect the research Lisa has done with many vets to develop her diet. I don't feed it, but ... I'm willing to admit I don't know that much about it, and it warrants further study. It is NOT alright, in my opinion, and from what I've read, to feed a glider primarily pellets - any pellets (see possible exception above). However, "Lumpy jaw" is not a condition that gliders get! It is a condition found in rodents. Lumpy jaw is part of the myth. If any member has participated in an educational outreach - such as going to a flea market with the TGI booth, or that sort of thing - you will learn that the biggest DETERRENCE to most average people joining the online community is the tendency of our community to being TOO forceful in their beliefs. Education can not be about cramming it down someone's throat! There are FAR more gray areas than there are black and white areas! We HAVE to be able to reach out to people with a sense of generosity and compassion. We have to meet them where they are and hopefully lead them to some changes. Not bang them over the head! Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Lisa, thank you for providing the study in which was done, and I will be reading it today (when I do not have distractions) (this sentence alone took me 5 minutes to write). I would like to know however, and I'm not asking for measurements and such to do this myself,(I already have a list of all the ingredients) lol, the process you use the make your 'pellet' food. How do you ensure it to not be as hard as some of the others, etc. Whatever you're willing to share. JeremyLexie Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1190 Posts From: \"Suncoast Sugar Gliders\" <lisa@sugar-gliders.com> Subject: RE: diet help Glider Gossip can be brutal. The 2:1 you refer to is a calcium phosphorus ratio of fruits and veggies we choose to feed. The whole some balance is balanced. it was developed by the only doctor who has a published study on glider nutrition and this food is a result of the study. I don\'t think anything else on the market comes close. I know that Glider Gossip is anti pellet food but those naysayers do not have an MD, a DVM or a Phd behind their names. I\'ve worked with many doctors over the years and have a lot of confidence in the diet plan we use, which includes wholesome balance. Viva La Glider! Lisa Suncoast Sugar Gliders 727-343-8577 www.sugar-gliders.com < www.sugar-gliders.com/>
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