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Catman Goose Catcher     CO, USA 2670 Posts Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Strange how the 3 of my 5 gliders, who were essentially rescues, have mouth damage and their primary diet was 25/25/50. Winter Song, I already answered your question when asked the first time. I mean we as in us here, from Kylah. I didn't know the details as to what pellets and such, but wherever I'm wrong, I do apologize, Regardless, there's not much that could change my mind on hard food at this point. As far as the study shared by Lisa, it showed me this much: Three diets 'studied' for ONE month, and it merely told us which diet was most consumed. That told me nothing. Honestly, what I would LIKE to see (in before before call me evil and cruel) but know I'll never see in my day, is a LONG TERM study (5 years minimum) of 8 groups of gliders. Each group fed a different diet, since there are 8 diets to choose from. At the end of the study period, dissect each glider and look at each organ and test tissue sample to find out who is ultimately the healthiest. I think that is a GREAT way to end the never ending, great diet debate. BUT, because animal rights activists would cry bloody murder (literally and figuratively), this will never happen. And thus, we are left here, arguing. valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes USA 3479 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Megs06
As far as glider obesity, that's more an issue with gliders who are fed the 'whatever the hell is in the fridge' diet. A glider with goobies is normal? A fattie glider? Never heard of one that was also on a good diet.
Let me introduce you to my gliders, then, Meg! They are a mix of males, neutered males and females. Some are rescues, some have been obtained from a variety of smaller, reputable breeders. I have 3 Females who are fluffy, 5 females who are small-to-normal, 3 Intact males normal size, 2 Neutered males fluffy, 4 neutered males normal size. They are all fed the exact same diet. They are all in pretty much the same cage - at least the same cage size. They all have Stealth wheels. So - yes, I have "fattie" gliders, and gliders with Moobs who are all on Candy's Blended Diet. Before that, they were on modified HPW. They are given very carefully balanced fruits and veggies, and they all have access to 1 cup of pellets per week. They are all given mealworms nightly - fewer to the "fluffy" ones, and more to the smaller ones or nursing moms. quote:
Originally posted by KuroNeko
Because if each given diet is approved, there should be no issues, correct?
Not sure what you mean by that? "Approved" as in - by the glider community? KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1617 Posts Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts There are no 'vet approved' diets. Some vets approve of the crap PP/P puts out there. But there are RECOGNIZED diets out there, that the glider community recommends. Alden, every OBESE glider I've heard of was on the 'whatever's in the fridge' diet. FLUFFY and OBESE are two totally different things. That's like trying to compare ME to Jennifer Hudson. She's FLUFFY, I'm FAT. Major difference. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts quote:
Originally posted by KuroNeko
IF a study was done like that, I would say it should be done in the long term. Meaning, letting them live their full lives out on that diet. Not only would it show us the healthiest diet, it would show which provided the longest life span given no health issues came up other than those caused by the diet.
Because if each given diet is approved, there should be no issues, correct?
That's why I said MINIMUM 5 years (really I was just throwing out an example). However, the problem with letting them pass naturally is this: We cannot run the tests at the same time. I suppose it's not THAT big of an issue, but most studies that I've ever heard of were on a time frame because they wanted the results rather quickly. Because we'd need an 'extended' TIME FRAME for the effects of each diet to take their toll, researchers and the community would have to wait quite a while as is. Meanwhile, the rest of us are blindly feeding whatever diets we deem proper, just as we have been since gliders came to America in 1995. Like I said, the chances of these studies being conducted are slim to none. Thus necropsies are SOOOO very important. Not only can they tell us why a glider has passed, they can also tell us the effects their diet had on their body. This is also why I push the importance of necropsies no matter what you think or KNOW caused your gliders death. Unfortunately, because of the hefty price tag attached to necropsies, not many people choose this route. I think if it weren't so dang expensive more people would do it. Furthermore, for those who really don't care WHY their glider died (and I'm sure they're out there) or already know (ie: drowned, heaven forbid) I think then they should be able to send the glider in for a necropsy without having to pay. A 'donation' if you will. With this, we as a community, over enough time and 'donations' would learn so much that we don't already know. ::sigh:: WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Megs06
There are no 'vet approved' diets. Some vets approve of the crap PP/P puts out there. But there are RECOGNIZED diets out there, that the glider community recommends.
Alden, every OBESE glider I've heard of was on the 'whatever's in the fridge' diet. FLUFFY and OBESE are two totally different things. That's like trying to compare ME to Jennifer Hudson. She's FLUFFY, I'm FAT.
Major difference.
There are most certainly obese gliders on recognized diets, as well... A good friend of mine, for example, has a HUGE glider. This glider has two cagemates that are normal sized. This glider DOES NOT have food aggression at all, and does not appear to have any strange eating habits. The glider is fed BML (which I know is made appropriately, because I make it for her each month -- following the recipe to a T)with the appropriate fruits and veggies, and is hardly ever given treats (and when she is, it's just a few mealies). She also has a wheel in her cage, as well as in the tent that they use for playtime, and is given multiple hours of out of cage time per night. But..the glider is obese. (And despite being obese, she moves, is extremely active, and has an otherwise perfectly clean bill of health). kyro298 Glider Sprinkles  CO, USA 15262 Posts I paid $45 for a necropsy...same price as a well-check at my vet. The Necropsy Effort also assists with necropsies. They are vital and The SUGAR Group is also collecting information from the results. http://www.sugargroup.org/Necropsy-Effort.html
I also want to say, about the pellets...99% of the time, when we tell people pellets are bad, we're talking to new owners. They DO NOT have any high quality type pellet. They're talking about Glider Grub, eucalyptus pellets, Nutrimax, Vitamax, Glide-R-Chow, Monkey biscuits, Happy Glider, plain old cat food, bird food, other small animal food and on and on and on! If there are "high quality" pellets out there, for the love of God, can someone please make a thread listing them/some/any?! (and I'm not talking about the kind where a few pieces are given here or there for a treat or for dental health) Also, just another quick thing Lisa mentioned about her diet being used for generations of gliders..."generations" in gliders is a very short time span. In 5 years, you could have 5 generations. I'm still not saying that what Lisa posted about their diet is wrong or bad but using that for comparison sake wouldn't be a reason for me to be convinced of the health effects, whether positive or negative. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts quote:
There are most certainly obese gliders on recognized diets, as well... A good friend of mine, for example, has a HUGE glider. This glider has two cagemates that are normal sized. This glider DOES NOT have food aggression at all, and does not appear to have any strange eating habits. The glider is fed BML (which I know is made appropriately, because I make it for her each month -- following the recipe to a T)with the appropriate fruits and veggies, and is hardly ever given treats (and when she is, it's just a few mealies). She also has a wheel in her cage, as well as in the tent that they use for playtime, and is given multiple hours of out of cage time per night. But..the glider is obese. (And despite being obese, she moves, is extremely active, and has an otherwise perfectly clean bill of health).
Like I said... Every glider *I* have ever heard of. Now I can say, every glider but one. But I never DENIED that there were obese gliders on proper diets. Just that *I* had never heard of it. quote:
I also want to say, about the pellets...99% of the time, when we tell people pellets are bad, we're talking to new owners. They DO NOT have any high quality type pellet. They're talking about Glider Grub, eucalyptus pellets, Nutrimax, Vitamax, Glide-R-Chow, Monkey biscuits, Happy Glider, plain old cat food, bird food, other small animal food and on and on and on! If there are "high quality" pellets out there, for the love of God, can someone please make a thread listing them/some/any?! (and I'm not talking about the kind where a few pieces are given here or there for a treat or for dental health)
I don't know if it was YOU I gave this link to, but I think it's quite powerful. http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/Pellet%20Food%20Analysis%20-%20Quick%20View.pdf
quote:
Also, just another quick thing Lisa mentioned about her diet being used for generations of gliders..."generations" in gliders is a very short time span. In 5 years, you could have 5 generations. I'm still not saying that what Lisa posted about their diet is wrong or bad but using that for comparison sake wouldn't be a reason for me to be convinced of the health effects, whether positive or negative.
YES slyo Super Glider USA 331 Posts I think it's fair to say that sugar gliders, along with many animals in this world, can have different bodies, along with different metabolisms. My vet shared with me a story he saw from one of his clients who rescues gliders, and she had raised this little guy for 5 years, feeding him her version of 'priscillas'.Although the majority of her gliders had done just fine from that diet for years, this particular glider had a hard time digesting chicken-- and had gained pounds and pounds of weight from it. Intestinal blockage or something of the sort. Well the lady had brought him in years too late, and he passed away at only the age of 6. Her other gliders were in prime health and were eating the diet just fine. My friend's cat had a thyroid problem and was horribly obese, and even though he only had small very monitored and very strict minimum caloric diet, he never lost any weight. and.. think of that tiny tiny kid eating mcDonalds everyday and not gaining a lb, and the lady who eats one hamburger and gains 6. I don't think there will ever be just one diet that is best all around for every glider. I just don't think it's possible, just like it is improbable for humans, and dogs, and other animals. However, I do believe there are some diets better than others [obviously] and that it is important, although not always, to feed a diet that works best for you. As in, if your glider is obviously losing vast amounts of weight or just looks generally unhealthy on one diet that may work for thousands--- just switch. I just definitely don't think it's feasible that one diet will make every glider the same weight with the same health benefits with the same blah blah... blah. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts I think that's a given regardless of the person or animal. Metabolism and activity vary from creature to creature. I know that if I sit down and eat ice cream and hot cheetos all day, which would be a perfect life for me, I'd be huge.. Wait.. I am huge. LOL.. It is taking activity and very low calorie consumption to lose weight. However, I have a few very close friends that do what I'd love to do, and can't gain a lick of an ouce, nevermind a pound. Everybody is different, so it's, I think , safe to assume it's about the same with all other living creatures. The fact of the matter is that we don't KNOW what diets are the best of the best, which is why I think this type of study should be done. I'm not saying there is one particular diet that's better than all the rest, but there are most certainly diets that are better than others. At this point, we're all assuming what diets are best. We don't know for sure. slyo Super Glider USA 331 Posts That's my point though. Even with years and years of research there will never ever be ONE diet or even a small margin of diets that will ever be--the best. Regardless of how much research supports it. You have to understand that the majority of research can be biased, unless funded privately by someone who is genuinely interested in taking care of their pet--- and even then, that person better be freaking rich because research-- especially proper research-- takes a lot of dough. Nutrition is complicated because there are so many external factors that can affect how well it may or may not work for individuals. Stress, environmental factors, previous health records, family history, individual metabolisms, personality--laziness, hyperactiveness, psychological health, age, sex.. The list goes on and on. I for one, after seeing how Iams treated their dogs in their research facility, hope to God no one or any other research facility, ever does that to their animals simply hoping to find what may or may not be best for their animals. I firmly believe in the golden rules of variety is great, too much of anything is bad, and obviously limit junk foods and treats vs quality foods like fruits veggies etc. I understand that killing a few gliders-- or even harming a group of them-- could potentially help thousands of generations of gliders---- but is it really worth it? I mean seriously-- if my glider lives 12years off of hpw, I'm never going to think "man, I wish we had done nearly unethical research on gliders-- she could have lived 2 more years" no- I'm going think, I did all I can-- she lived a great life.. and I'll mourn her loss. Remember, we haven't even figured out perfect diets for people yet--- it will NEVER happen for gliders. [remember the food pyramid we lived off of for years and realized it was completely WRONG and actually caused a lot of obesity in teens and young adults? yeah------ I do] The majority of captive gliders outlive their wild relatives by nearly a decade. I realize this has a lot to do with natural predators-- but still-- we can't be doing THAT bad of a job. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Given a source of income (ie if I had a job), I would most certainly donate to the funds. I think something like this really needs to be done. I want to know the best diets out there so that I can feed that diet, unless I already AM. Slyo, there ARE such things as 'best diets'. It's common knowledge for humans that there are crap foods and there are good foods. Protein will always be high in calories, fruits have a lot of sugar, and veggies are the best. There are different diets you can choose from. Some limit calories, others carbs. But we all know (if doing the proper research) that each diet has it's pros and cons, but they're diets for a reason. Honestly, yes, I do think the harm of 8 groups of gliders is a good idea when the result will be the knowledge of what diets are the best of the bunch so that any owner out there who CARES will have the access and ability to go with the good diet/s.
Some photos from our members Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts See, and I don't. Living out their natural lives means they'd all be passing at different times, which means the study of their organs and tissue samples would not be done together, which, in my opinion, makes the whole thing a flop. When studies like this are done, because they are so large scale, it's imperative they be done AT THE SAME TIME. Like I said... Too many people crying out foul and cruel. Sure, it's cruel, you're ending their lives before need be, but when you think of the good it can and WOULD do in the long run, totally worth it. kyro298 Glider Sprinkles CO, USA 15262 Posts I think the scope of this is much bigger than anyone realizes, hence the reason it has not been done yet. 1. As Sara mentioned, what kind of facility would house these gliders and who would own/maintain/supervise the facility? 2. There would have to be an actual qualified, impartial, paid team of many people devoted to the study on a daily (and especially, nightly) basis...as with large hospitals, universities and drug companies. You'd need a lab type facility. 3. Who would choose the professionals...the people providing the gliders, the diets, the donations? 4. What would determine a "healthy" glider? We all preach that healthy gliders need nightly play time and interaction, large cages etc... The lineage of all gliders would need to be established for a baseline to be established. Would each group all be related so they have similar genetic makeup? 5. As far as funding goes, donations sound great but what happens if there are a few months where there just aren't enough people to donate? Would the study be done? What if a vendor or multiple vendors go out of business during the study? Counting on charitable contributions for a 10+ year study is something, I'm guessing, most would not be willing to make a commitment to without the funding being guaranteed. It would only make sense that the gliders live out their natural life to make the study viable anyway. How else would you know which diet allows a glider a longer, healthier life span? 6. What about the diets that don't need a vendor to provide supplies? Those are just MY questions...imagine all the others that I am not even considering? Obviously, the idea is awesome...the reality of the scope you're talking about though, is just not likely based on donations. It almost sounds like something a University should be involved in. Hospitals, drug companies and the government have no incentive for funding something like this. Some government agencies don't even want them legal. Vet offices can't normally handle something of this magnitude. The Necropsy Effort, TGI and other groups right now already accept donations on a small scale to help people be able to go to the vet for emergency visits, neuters, necropsies, rescue, etc... Do any of you donate to that already? (Not a question actually needing an answer..just hypothetical) If not, would you honestly be willing to donate to something much larger on a continual basis? If it can be done, I do think it would be fantastic. It's something that's definitely needed, there's no doubt about it. slyo Super Glider USA 331 Posts The biggest problem with Iams was NOT neglect, or being stuck in cages, or even the general mistreatment in animals. You see that everywhere. The largest problem with Iams that personally bothered me, was that in order to see how the nutrition actually affected muscle tone, specific organ use, etc, was that they would literally take chunks of muscles and tissue from the animal, and although the animal would live.. I mean.. come on. How sad is that. It was one of the only way to invasively and scientifically understand exactly HOW and WHAT nutrition would be best per animal-- without seeing external biases. a study like that would be immensely difficult because of external biases--- whether it's smells that cause the animal stress--- which in turn makes the animal less healthy--- or sickness.. I mean seriously there are so many things that could affect the research. I never said there are not better diets out there. Of course there are-- just like I said in a previous post. HOWEVER, my point is-- I think it's fair to say, we've found some pretty decent ones. How far does it go? We aren't raising champions. Our gliders don't need half the nutrients a wild glider probably needs, simply because---- they don't do half the things a wild glider would need to. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Kylah, I agree. A LOT of thought and money would need to be put into it. Slyo, I honestly don't care about Iams. That's not to say I don't care about the dogs, cause I do. But THEY have to sleep in their own skins at night. What they did was terrible, no joke. I honestly doubt very much that this would happen with gliders for 2 reasons: A GOOD study wouldn't torture animals Gliders are too small to allow for such torture, and that's their biggest saving grace. What Iams did is NOT the only way to see what diets are best, and that statement is a crock, seriously. The way I described is humane, NO torture at ALL, AND we'd learn what diets are best. We can't seriously say we've found 'decent ones'. We're ASSUMING they're good, but we don't know for sure. How can you say a diet is great/good when no studies have been conducted studying it's effects on a gliders organs and tissues? That's like saying smoking is healthy to the guy who NEVER has ill effects. Look at his organs and then tell me that. Not all diets SHOW negative effect, and not enough people are getting necropsy studies on their deceased gliders for a collective approval/disapproval to be done towards any particular diet. We know their are some serious CRAP diets and some good ones based on what we SEE (ability to move, their coats, etc). But what we SEE is a small fraction compared to what we DON'T and CAN'T see. Megs06 BANNED_ACCOUNT USA 1 Posts Yes I DO think we have such an issue. Like I said many times before, and I'll continue saying, we DON'T know for SURE, which is the whole reason for a study. If were knew for sure, we wouldn't have the great diet debates, would we? This isn't a matter of 'is the food jampacked with preservatives' or 'was it cooked with salt?'. This is a matter of finding out WHAT are the diets we're feeding doing to our gliders? How can we fix that? What should we be avoiding that we THOUGHT was ok? etc. Just because a glider lives a 'long' life, APPEARS healthy, etc, doesn't at ALL mean that the diet isn't doing some sort of harm, even subtle. You say 'what if we get the answer that [insert diet name here] is fine?'. Well, what if we get the opposite. WE DON'T KNOW. That's why a study really is the best choice. Just as WinterSong said about her friend whose gliders are on BML and one is OBESE, just because they're on a recommended diet doesn't mean it's the best. I can't say it enough.. WE DON'T KNOW. We're simply assuming at this point. quote:
Meg, if you can organize a study that clearly does not harm or knowingly take away nutrients or etc that are vital to that animal just to see what will happen-- I guess i'll think differently.
The problem with this is this: There are 'diets' that don't offer the nutrients that some of the others do, however I find that it's imperative to offer those diets anyway so that we know what those effects are for certain. Otherwise, we'll all continue arguing about the use of pellets, primarily. Like it or not, this is the only TRUE way of getting all the answers we need about all the possible diets out there. Sad but true I personally could sleep at night knowing that in the long run, it's all going to pay off. And yes, gliders ARE too small. They have very little muscle mass, very little blood, etc. You're trying to compare rats to gliders but for heaven's sakes. This is comparing apples to oranges. Gliders are, ON AVERAGE, 140 grams, are 2 inches tall at best and 11 inches long, most of that being their tail, really. Lab rats (since this is the comparison you'd like to use) are, ON AVERAGE, 350-450 grams, are about 9 inches long, and I'm not sure the height... So again.. Apples to oranges. Also.. I'm very aware that Iams was not the first, nor the last, to do such things to their test subjects. Honestly, that's not to say ALL studies are horrid. If *I* were to run the study on gliders, I wouldn't be like these others. I need to be able to sleep at night, and with stuff like that, I couldn't.
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