Ed thank you for your clarification's! Although I still feel that there is nor has there ever been a need for this method and I do believe it is cruel along with inhumane and would hope that any new owner would NEVER again be told they should use this method! I commend you for every rescue you have helped and for you sharing your opinions and experience's but I feel this is one experience that should not have been put out there for unexperienced glider owners to see!

@TINY LITTLE ANGELS I put an @ before my comment because i was talking to someone else(NOT YOU) and actually responding to MORE misinformation that was post this morning addressing ME, NOT YOU.

And "i will sign a petition to try to shut you down" is being civil?

@ TINY LITTLE ANGELS, I will post anything I want, whenever I want. Who the hell do you think you are?

@ TINY LITTLE ANGELS didn't 8 gliders just die that where in your care?

YEAH tell me to shut up!!!

They sure did a terrible accident you ass! I will tell you to shut up there is no need for any more drama the "petition" was said at the start and hasnt been mentioned much at all since except by you!!!! We are are trying to be adults here AND YOU ARE BEING A CHILD!!! And now have pissed me off! How dare you speak of what happened to my babies you have no damn clue what I went through & am still going through! you go to hell you loud mouth drama starting asshole!!!!

@Catman: Glider Central closed the original post becase it went the same path this one did. It was not much better than a bash fest. As they don't allow that there they closed it and later reopened another thread warning everyone to be civil. I agree with what they did and will continue to stand by them in the decision they made. I question why the same thing wasn't done here on Glider Gossip by the owner. On to your next post: I can not and will not try to tell why others are upset as I am because I am not them and have no idea what they are thinking. I can tell you why I think they feel this way tho and that is that the method can be dangerous to a glider's health and well being, the effects of the method haven't been truely seen yet (that will only show with time), and some of the steps used in the method are cruel and in fact according to most animal protection laws are illegal (for instance with holding food). Just so it's clear I also feel that the method needs to stop being used now. We have voiced our concerns to Ed as he is a rescue that by his own admission has this method twice. He has replied that he will continue to use the method unless the intros fail and the gliders need to be seperated. That is sadly unacceptable in our eyes and we feel it will also be in the eyes of the proper authorities. We feel the issue is not wither or not the method is a success but rather that the steps of the process are cruel and inhumane. No one wants a good rescue with years of helping gliders closed. What we'd like to see happen is that he'd agree to stop using the method until he can first change some of the steps to make the steps humane and second determine if there are any ill effects to what has already been done. That is all we're asking for. Is that really too much to ask?

And for the record since you think you KNOW IT ALL (WHEN IN REALITY YOU KNOW NOTHING) They weren't in my care I was out of town someone was looking in on them for me while I was gone for no more than 24 hrs! So dont post something when you know nothing!

Hold up here guys. Lets please be civil. We don't need name calling or accusations flying rather they be true or unfdounded. This whole thread got thrown off it looks like and now has members fighting against each other. Knock it off please and look at it from outside.

@hpyhwn2003 you really need to look up the laws!Have you ever had to with hold food befor a neuter or any operation?Is that against the law?Is that cruel?

"the effects of the method haven't been truely seen yet "

But you are all experts on this method already?

Feel free to go back to GC or if if you dont like the way thing go here. GC will edit any post they dont like and will just ban you and I can only imagine how many gliders they are pumping out together.

I have been reading and thinking since this began. I want to remind everyone that while this is a highly emotional topic that some feel should be closed, the same can be said for any open discussion regarding abortion, spanking your child, hunting, religion, etc. It's going to get heated - however, the personal attacks do not reflect well upon yourselves at all.
You can not expect people to calm down, while using capital letters and multiple exclaimation points, and "shut up" all in the same breath. You defeat your own purpose.
I understand and respect how everyone feels on both sides of this issue. I personally do not feel this is abuse when used as a last resort and I also don't feel that Ed should have to agree with anyone because of pressure.
Regardless - Ed has responded each time with grace and dignity and I personally have learned a lot by listening to both sides of the discussion.
Just as abortion, religion, hunting etc, this humane debate too will last long after this thread is gone, regardless of what any official determines.
That's it - I got nothing else.

hpyhwn2003 this post is still on GC 10:41 mountain time 1/11/2011

1053161 - Yesterday at 11:37 AM

"p.s. mouthwash with or without alcohol is poison. gliders lick it. i will sign a petition to try to shut you down. you do more damage then you are willing to admit. bonding? the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point"

The post right after it!!11:44 1/10/2010

Rubym-
"I would deff sign a petition if one went around".

"As they don't allow that there they closed it and later reopened another thread warning everyone to be civil."

And they don't allow it? Give me a break.

This really isn't necessary.

Everyone has stated opinions, which we are each entitled to. Ed/Gail/LGRS is a 501(c)(3) organization as am I/SESGRS. We have each stated our opinions and we disagree. Does that mean we both should be shut down? If you think GC/ members are going after ED, then does that mean GG should be going after me because I disagree with your board owner and active rescue? Of course not. I've tried to read up on both boards (I don't go to so I don't know what's being said there) and from what I've seen there was a lot of emotions in the beginning. Then Ed explained his reasonings and most of the emotion went away. Folks still said they disagreed but they also said they appreciated him explaining WHY he stood by it. 2 people even came here and apologized to Ed for their previous remarks and emotions. Why is it now becoming nasty? No one is an expert, but we're also not all amateurs. We are all here to educate...hopefully. Education means voicing our opinions and reasons we have formed them. I've seen posts by many of you over the years and I realize that you have a lot of great info to share, but what about new folks whose first glimpse of you (no one in particular) is a thread where you're calling each other names and being nasty? Do you think they're going to want to ask you (no one in particular) for help in the future? I think that they may be worried that anything they share with you could be thrown in their face later if there is another "debate". There are many folks who do not post a lot but who do read a lot. Seeing this sort of posting isn't helping them...it's not helping anyone.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catman

@hpyhwn2003 you really need to look up the laws!Have you ever had to with hold food befor a neuter or any operation?Is that against the law?Is that cruel?

"the effects of the method haven't been truely seen yet "

But you are all experts on this method already?

Feel free to go back to GC or if if you dont like the way thing go here. GC will edit any post they dont like and will just ban you and I can only imagine how many gliders they are pumping out together.

---

Let me point out that gliders have a very high metabolism therefore food is not with held before a neuter. How many neuters have you been a part of that you don't know that? If in fact food has to be with held prior to any other operation a glider has to undergo it is being done with a vets knowledge and consent. So no it would not be against any laws. That is not the case with this wet intro method. There were no vets consulted before the method was used by anyone who has used it thus far. That being the case sadly does make it wrong to with hold the food in 47 of 50 states. And TX is one of the states that in fact has a law against with holding food from a captive animal. Here in IL the same law ins in place and I must follow it too. As rescues we are REQUIRED to follow all animals laws of the state in which we run our rescues. But then you'd know that if you were a rescue. So let me make myself absolutely clear. If the food is being with held with a vet's knowledge and consent no it is not illegal. If you don't have a vet's consent it is illegal.

Am I an expert on the method? NO and I will never be as I will never use it. Common sense alone tells us that we really don't know yet how this method and it's use on the glider's who endured it will affect them. Gosh even Ed admitted to that and promised to go public with what he sees going on with the gliders that have undergone the wet into method. I believe he is a man of his word and will do just that wither the findings be good or bad.

I hate to say it but I'm about ready to pack my bags and glide off into the sunset with the boys. This arguing is not doing anyone any good. I have learned so much here but am not going to sit by and listen to you guys bicker like children. I'll check back this evening and hope there are a couple of apologies from a couple of members (to each other cuz thats what grown-ups do) who keep poking each other. If not, I'll ask for my account to be closed and try to get my help elsewhere.

quote:

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Originally posted by thefotokat

This really isn't necessary.

Everyone has stated opinions, which we are each entitled to. Ed/Gail/LGRS is a 501(c)(3) organization as am I/SESGRS. We have each stated our opinions and we disagree. Does that mean we both should be shut down? If you think GC/ members are going after ED, then does that mean GG should be going after me because I disagree with your board owner and active rescue? Of course not. I've tried to read up on both boards (I don't go to so I don't know what's being said there) and from what I've seen there was a lot of emotions in the beginning. Then Ed explained his reasonings and most of the emotion went away. Folks still said they disagreed but they also said they appreciated him explaining WHY he stood by it. 2 people even came here and apologized to Ed for their previous remarks and emotions. Why is it now becoming nasty? No one is an expert, but we're also not all amateurs. We are all here to educate...hopefully. Education means voicing our opinions and reasons we have formed them. I've seen posts by many of you over the years and I realize that you have a lot of great info to share, but what about new folks whose first glimpse of you (no one in particular) is a thread where you're calling each other names and being nasty? Do you think they're going to want to ask you (no one in particular) for help in the future? I think that they may be worried that anything they share with you could be thrown in their face later if there is another "debate". There are many folks who do not post a lot but who do read a lot. Seeing this sort of posting isn't helping them...it's not helping anyone.

---

I totally agree with you on this. I can only assume that those being nasty and stirring up more trouble are immature and still need to grow up. I have striven to respond to their posts in a civil and adult manner but I've been told to go back to "my board". Then they post asking why we on the other board don't come here to help them educate. I can tell you that I personally have tried to do just that and been called names and even told that I can't speak because I've no experience. Yet if they took the time to learn more about me they'd see that I am very experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to glider care. I am quickly coming to realize that you can't be adult with a child and have resolved to ignore all posts in this thread that are childish.

@TINY LITTLE ANGELS

#1053142 - Yesterday at 11:01 AM (and its still there as I type this)

quote=carolinasuggies]I think IMO this method is torture and I will sign a petition! Just b/c a vet does something safely doesn't mean it's okay for it to be done WAY differently & unsafely at home to force glider's that obviously dont want to be together into a tiny cage together! [/quote

I think killing 8 gliders in your care is torture/animal abuse. You are responsible for the gliders you breed regardless of your personal problems . Your torture,breeding method KILLED the gliders, Ed's gliders are most likely sleeping together right now.
I don't know how you can even say anything bad about Ed. And to sign the petition? UNREAL!

You know what! I will apologize to everyone reading for my outburst! But there was no need in throwing up what I lost! I shared that as something to help others be prepared for bad weather loss of power etc. What happened was in NO WAY my fault I wasn't even home a extra heater was turned on (by the person looking after them) and tripped the breaker! I do not appreciate something that helped people learn being used to hurt me as if it doesnt already hurt enough! I stated that I commend ED for his work although I do not and will never agree with the wet method and do not believe it should have been made public or recommened for new glider owners! CATMAN brings in more drama everytime the situation is calm and I think enough is enough! I will not apologize for the way I feel as I am very passionate about the fact that this method is cruel and is not needed nor safe! I also understand now why ED felt the need to use it does that make it right? NO not in my opinion but I will say he has done alot of good for glider's and hopefully will not feel the need to EVER use this method again!

quote:

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Originally posted by Catman


@TINY LITTLE ANGELS

#1053142 - Yesterday at 11:01 AM (and its still there as I type this)

quote=carolinasuggies]I think IMO this method is torture and I will sign a petition! Just b/c a vet does something safely doesn't mean it's okay for it to be done WAY differently & unsafely at home to force glider's that obviously dont want to be together into a tiny cage together! [/quote

I think killing 8 gliders in your care is torture/animal abuse. You are responsible for the gliders you breed regardless of your personal problems . Your torture,breeding method KILLED the gliders, Ed's gliders are most likely sleeping together right now.
I don't know how you can even say anything bad about Ed. And to sign the petition? UNREAL!

---

SEE AGAIN HERE GOES THE DRAMA......I came here and said my peace about AND TO ED and yet YOU still keep bringing DRAMA you are like a little kid! Seriously! PUT ON YOUR BIG BOY PANTS AND GROW UP!!!! aND JUST WHAT PERSONAL PROBLEMS ARE YOU SPEAKING OF??? PERSONAL PROBLEMS HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO MY GLIDER'S! And if you are going to take my posts off GC and post them here dont edit them! That isnt my name on GC....And yes I have OPENLY stated I would sign a petition TO STOP THIS METHOD....Not I would sign a petition to shut ED down!

quote:

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Originally posted by thefotokat

This really isn't necessary.

I've seen posts by many of you over the years and I realize that you have a lot of great info to share, but what about new folks whose first glimpse of you (no one in particular) is a thread where you're calling each other names and being nasty? Do you think they're going to want to ask you (no one in particular) for help in the future? I think that they may be worried that anything they share with you could be thrown in their face later if there is another "debate". There are many folks who do not post a lot but who do read a lot. Seeing this sort of posting isn't helping them...it's not helping anyone.

---

I'm quoting myself in hopes everyone rereads this part. What is the goal here? Do you want to help or not? Posting insults at each other is NOT helping anyone. Please take a minute to step back and remember what the purpose of any of these boards are.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catman

And I'm curious why the Mill Breeder Project is jumping on board? Is Ed a mill? Are all the mills closed down or even slowed down?

---

The Mill Breeder/Broker Project IS NOT jumping on board with this.

I was asked by a certain member if I knew of any Animal Protection Laws that would constitute this as being 'abuse'. The question was not directed towards Ed, it was directed towards the person who made the post on FB.

I agree, Kate. If anyone has personal issues with each other, why not message each other personally. If you feel THAT strongly about it, start a separate thread. This one has enough issues. The important stuff is getting lost...AND this thread, as titled, is about intros.

quote:

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Originally posted by Catman

And I'm curious why the Mill Breeder Project is jumping on board? Is Ed a mill? Are all the mills closed down or even slowed down?

---

I wanted to log in and speak to this because I have read it in more than one place. The MBP is not going to get involved in this. Harming good qualified rescues is not what the MBP is about.

Now many of you know me and many of you know that I have stood up and fought for the rescues. I can assure you that I will never be involved in Anything that harms rescues. I don't understand how any of you could think that I would in any way be involved with a movement that would close down a rescue.

I want to tell those of you that have made these threats plain and simple. NO LAWS HAVE BEEN BROKEN! Maybe you should spend some time researching and understanding the laws before you make such wild claims about cruelty.

Oh, and for those who don't know me because I lay low alot...I also post as as Anita Rae, and hushpuppy. I am a director on the MBP and I own AtticWorx. I have a pretty good understanding of both business laws and animal cruelty laws. Just didn't want to pop in after such a long absence and expect that everyone would know who I am.

Lets keep the MBP out of this please.

Tiny Little Angels please try your best to ignore Catman. I know I plan to from here on out as he is just stiring up s***. Those who know you know the truth. (((HUGS))) Does it really matter what a person like him thinks?