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hpyhwn2003 Glider   HI, USA 87 Posts quote:
Originally posted by hpyhwn2003
I've now heard over and over again that the reason this is being done is because the gliders involved are sm-ers and this method will get them into a cage with another glider thereby stopping the sm behavior.
Tho it was on this site that I read a post about gliders who already had cagemates being introed this way to reduce the cage count for the owner. This I have an issue with. The gliders already had cage mates and were not sm-ing so why was this method used? But as I stated in an earlier post and others have also said what's done is done. That can't be changed. Please keep a close eye on the gliders to be sure that none are displaying any signs of illness or have decided that the intro didn't take for them. Am I asking for too much? CozyFlowers Starting Member Blue River, Oregon 6 Posts So all of the information you've gathered from random "experienced" people makes you an expert? You are right though, they're a living animal. Animal, not human. quote:
Originally posted by CozyFlowers
** Catman **
I got all my introduction information from many place's from people that knew first hand on there own personal experience.
the sites I did research on are;
Glidercentral.net
Laurie's Glider Gazette
Random people I have met across the USA that have owned sugar gliders for years that have experience
My USDA Breeder I got one of my sugar gliders from
The Pet shop I bought my other glider from
The person I got my Rescued glider from off CL
Every thing is from what I learned and have had first hand experience in with introduction with the glider's I own as pets.
I don't breed and would never breed because there is to many people breeding glider's now days and are making the lineage to unknown and inbreed.
I am a glider owner going on my third year...
I still learn new stuff daily because it seems that the list of research never ends with sugar gliders.
That and I help many people learn about this animal and how it's not ok to just buy one on a whim because they are cute... There is so much more to owning a glider...
They are a living animal and they have feelings and they don't have the option to speak up and tell there owner to buzz off when they are doing something that hurts them or scares the heck out of them....
I only put the steps I have experienced on the intro's I have done and promote that people learn patients and try a lot harder to focus on what the animal is telling them by body language.
As for a Rescue doing this I think it is best that they keep it to them selfs an not tell NEW GLIDER OWNER"S THIS IS something to do for introduction. Many people will say oh I have done all those steps but in reality they probably didn't and just want a easy way out...
But all I can do is give my advice either you can use it or not.
Your glider is the only one that doesn't get a choice in the end of your decision....
I am now hoping congress passes the law to make them illegal because of folks that obviously don't care about the well being of this animal and most likely any animal sorry if none of you like that but that is the only way to put a stop to something like this...
You all just sadden me if you think or do the Wet introduction and that is all I can say.....
I weep for your glider's
hpyhwn2003 Glider HI, USA 87 Posts quote:
Originally posted by LuckyGlider
Many of us are fond of saying that we are still learning. Sometimes we learn from each other. I learn a lot from the gliders in our care too. In this instance, so far anyway, what I am learning from them is that they are very happy to be together. One has stopped picking at herself and the other is all of the sudden more interactive and spry.
If this method fails us, because them being "forced" to interact backfires, and they hurt each other, I will be man enough to admit something went wrong and maybe this (controversial) method is no good. Until then, I am open-minded to trying new methods of introduction especially for solo gliders who are depressed or SM or over-grooming. It's no cure-all. Nothing is. I still think it's over the top to characterize this as abuse. If you want to see the results of abuse, come look at our medical records of inbound rescues. Come on out and visit. You may come a way with a different perspective. Or not. We love these animals and just want to save and re-home them. We are concerned most about their quality of life.
Ed I am very pleased to hear that after all you've had to endure over this, I know you didn't create the method and only use it in extreme SM cases, that the intro seems to be going well and the sm gliders are no longer sm-ing.  As I stated on the other forum from all I've heard of you and what you do I DO believe that you will let us know if in fact the method didn't work out or had other medical or mental side effects. I truely believe that your heart is in the right place. As I also stated on the other forum I have no issue with you personally nor what you are trying to do as a rescue. My only issue was the method being used by newbies without trying all other means of bonding glider to glider first. As I also stated in an earlier post here I know as rescues we try new things we hope are for the good of the glider. I also feel that to publicly support an untested method such as this is like cutting your own throat at least until you've had a chance to determine if it has any ill side effects for the gliders. Once a method is proven then post about it and let the chips fall where they may. I hope with this post you have a better understanding of what I'm thinking and who I am. Tho I've got to tell you I wish we had not met over such an issue such as this because I think we may have gotten along quite well. CozyFlowers Starting Member Blue River, Oregon 6 Posts I still have not attacked anyone only the method "Catman" but you feel the need to attack me and my knowledge. attack a few resources I put up.... I don't have anything put in my head by anyone but knowledge I know is right. so STOP TRYING TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH! CATMAN I can't be a breeder when I only have 2 gliders any they are not a breeding pair, because the male is fixed  I said I am speaking from MY EXPERIENCE NOT ANYONE ELSE'S I use advice that was given to me and I made it into my own on what worked with my gliders... You need to check your self and learn something other then just saying your not right cozyflowers. Why don't you give an opinion on a better way or what you have done that helped with intro with your glider's? HUMMM CATMAN ? HUH? Leave me alone Catman voice an opinion that counts. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts   TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by hpyhwn2003
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyGlider
Many of us are fond of saying that we are still learning. Sometimes we learn from each other. I learn a lot from the gliders in our care too. In this instance, so far anyway, what I am learning from them is that they are very happy to be together. One has stopped picking at herself and the other is all of the sudden more interactive and spry.
If this method fails us, because them being "forced" to interact backfires, and they hurt each other, I will be man enough to admit something went wrong and maybe this (controversial) method is no good. Until then, I am open-minded to trying new methods of introduction especially for solo gliders who are depressed or SM or over-grooming. It's no cure-all. Nothing is. I still think it's over the top to characterize this as abuse. If you want to see the results of abuse, come look at our medical records of inbound rescues. Come on out and visit. You may come a way with a different perspective. Or not. We love these animals and just want to save and re-home them. We are concerned most about their quality of life.
Ed I am very pleased to hear that after all you've had to endure over this, I know you didn't create the method and only use it in extreme SM cases, that the intro seems to be going well and the sm gliders are no longer sm-ing.
As I stated on the other forum from all I've heard of you and what you do I DO believe that you will let us know if in fact the method didn't work out or had other medical or mental side effects.
I truely believe that your heart is in the right place. As I also stated on the other forum I have no issue with you personally nor what you are trying to do as a rescue. My only issue was the method being used by newbies without trying all other means of bonding glider to glider first. As I also stated in an earlier post here I know as rescues we try new things we hope are for the good of the glider. I also feel that to publicly support an untested method such as this is like cutting your own throat at least until you've had a chance to determine if it has any ill side effects for the gliders. Once a method is proven then post about it and let the chips fall where they may.
I hope with this post you have a better understanding of what I'm thinking and who I am. Tho I've got to tell you I wish we had not met over such an issue such as this because I think we may have gotten along quite well.
hpyhwn2003 thank you for your post. Yes, this is not the best context in which to meet another rescuer. But at the very least you have had a chance to probe my intentions, my sincerity and our dedication to improving the lives of the animals. And I would love to learn more about your rescue efforts so we can recommend people to each other in our respective areas. I do promise, I really do, that if this thing backfires I will share the results. We do that with everything we discover. I am also sensitive to the double-edge sword of publishing and newbies and people doing things not under the best of circumstances. A long time ago we decided to publish, warts and all, because of the hope that we can save a few lives in the process. That's what it's all about. CozyFlowers Starting Member Blue River, Oregon 6 Posts  I am not just upset with Ed & Kazko doing the wet intro, but I am more upset at the fact there are newbie glider owner's that have been advised to do this type of intro. The newbies are using this method as a easy way to do introduction and are unaware of the risks involved as well as not caring and defending there so called reason why they did it. They just don't want to listen unless Ed says other wise, is what I got from some of his people I have spoken to and had the unpleasant time reading there posts on glider gossip so far... I just want this practice of Wet Introduction to stop and open people's eye's of how unsafe and risk taking it is. Besides heartless, cruel, abusive, inhumane, hateful crime in my book The whole mouth wash thing is on it's own level. That is something you think Scope Mouthwash could sue a consumer for testing there product on animals (cloaca) without there consent. Or That should give sudden grounds to file charge's on a person for animal cruelty, because it'is harmful if swallowed and can cause serious irritation and possible infection, loss of eye site I believe as well if you get it in your eye's, etc... I can continue to bicker my ear's off , but I just want to help find away to end this advice that is being given out to newbie's. If that mean's signing a partition or finding a way to press charges if I had enough evidence I would. Yes, it would suck if a rescue got closed and I by all mean's don't want to do that to Ed because he has helped so many glider's and owner's, but if it takes someone to be set as the example to get 10 people to hundreds of people to understand and stop so be it. I know that is harsh but this is a harsh world we live in. This is all I have to say further on this matter, I hope to spread the word of proper introduction and stir people from those two methods or get people not to buy sugar glider's on a whim so no more of this happens along with homeless abused glider's...
Some photos from our members wildlifeangel Glider MN, USA 71 Posts I just wanted to apologize to Ed for some of my comments directed at him. The comment about the 501-c3 was purely because they were talking about it on GC. I was VERY upset, and i still think that this method is cruel. BUT after sitting down with a level head and reading what Ed wrote this evening on GC, I now understand a bit better and I feel bad for slaughtering HIM so much, especially since most of the information I was associating with him was from others posting on here about other gliders. I DO think it has been abused and will continue to be abused by new and lazy owners. I do want to hear how the two pairs end up doing together in the future, as it would give more important information... I do have a questions though, that I have seen asked before and not answered. ED, what does your vet say about this method? I would surely think that as a good rescue (which i am coming around to seeing you as) you would talk over a drastic method with a vet to make sure it would be medically safe. I would also be interested in knowing how bad these particular gliders were solo... how bad was the SM? how depressed were the gliders? Also, lastly, I am curious as to how long you tried introductions in other methods and which ones before you chose to use this method. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by wildlifeangel
I just wanted to apologize to Ed for some of my comments directed at him. The comment about the 501-c3 was purely because they were talking about it on GC. I was VERY upset, and i still think that this method is cruel. BUT after sitting down with a level head and reading what Ed wrote this evening on GC, I now understand a bit better and I feel bad for slaughtering HIM so much, especially since most of the information I was associating with him was from others posting on here about other gliders. I DO think it has been abused and will continue to be abused by new and lazy owners.
I do want to hear how the two pairs end up doing together in the future, as it would give more important information...
I do have a questions though, that I have seen asked before and not answered. ED, what does your vet say about this method? I would surely think that as a good rescue (which i am coming around to seeing you as) you would talk over a drastic method with a vet to make sure it would be medically safe.
I would also be interested in knowing how bad these particular gliders were solo... how bad was the SM? how depressed were the gliders?
Also, lastly, I am curious as to how long you tried introductions in other methods and which ones before you chose to use this method.
You are very gracious thank you but your passion and care for the welfare of these animals is more important. We have acted in good faith, I promise you, and we promise to keep everyone in the loop on our ongoing findings with the animals in question. Thank you also for your excellent questions, which I will attempt to answer here. I added one from another post on GC too. I also have my own appeal at the bottom, which is not directed at any individual but to everyone and also breeders as a reach-out for help. Please feel free to contact us by phone or by visit if you wish. We welcome visits from anyone interested in the welfare of the animals. 1. Have you discussed this with your vet? I would want to hear how the vet felt about the method. Strangely, no. In fact as I look back on it, I probably should have because we confer with a variety of vets on most health issues with gliders. Instead, I just used my own judgment after meeting face-to-face with Terry (Kazko) and hearing of his experience. Clearly, we chose a variation of the method he used. That said, our long-time and best vet, Dr. Christine Kolmstetter has given us advice on joining or re-joining singles back into their colonies after surgery or other medical problems. And she has weighed-in on introductions in general. Her advise has been, even in the face of "breaking quarantine" that it is better to do whatever you can to join lone gliders because of the stress of being alone and their overall quality of life. She has explained to me that she can fix a bout of Giardia easily, but that the stress some animals endure from being alone is far worse. Clearly, not all singles self-mutilate, run in circles and SCREAM (not crab) in the corner when you try to approach them. Sadly, we have a lot of experience with this. 2. How bad were the gliders you used this on? SM/depression/etc. Great question. With Dizzy, she was (is) a serial SMer. When she was surrendered (family in NM who's kid moved off to college and stuck mom and dad with her gliders) her mate had died two months earlier. During that time she stripped all the fur off of her head and one whole side and parts of her neck. Parts of her were red with scratch / cuts. We successfully joined her with Bonnie, an over-groomer who was initially on chlomipramine to curb her picking at herself. After a month of being together, both of their fur grew back to almost normal. Sadly, 9 months later, I found a giant open wound on Dizzy's back. We separated them. We nursed Dizzy back using hydrotherapy, honey treatments, and Baytril. When she healed, we then joined her with Darla, one of our pets (hand raised from joey). Darla had been kicked out of her colony and had a huge wound on her back but it did not seem to be a mating wound. During her convalescence, she was not herself - very lonely. Dizzy being a "sanctuary animal" and not about to be adopted out - presented us with a problem because there were no other suitable gliders to put her with because we did not want to consign that animal to sanctuary by joining it with Dizzy. So we considered joining Dizzy with our pet Darla. In this particular instance, our motivation for using the wet method was Dizzy's condition was deteriorating rapidly. In our judgment, the slow method of introduction was... too slow. I got them both wet in my hand, put them in a hospital cage for one hour, then put the pouch in. They jumped in, groomed each other, and within a few hours they were dry. I transferred them into a clean cage with clean bedding in the morning and fed them. So far they both seem happy and they are sleeping together and Dizzy has stopped ripping out her fur. This was strictly a timing issue. In the case of Ginger and Clyde... Ginger was very stressed out and frightened, hiding when we fed her food and treats, and screaming when we cut her nails or tried to console her. She was kicked out of her (too large) colony of 9 as the low-on-the-pecking order glider. She received a giant bite which was partially necrotic. We took her to the vet and followed with Baytril, open wound hydrotherapy and honey treatments. It took over a month for her to recover. Since then we have tried other traditional methods to join her and she attacked anything that moved - including Clyde. Clyde is the son of Bonnie from the "Tank" colony the namesake of which has since passed away. Clyde, after years of being with his three sibling males, was ejected after his father died. Bonnie had long since been separated owing to two mating wounds so we never re-joined her after that. We had tried several traditional introductions with Clyde and he too, like Ginger, displayed the Alpha/Aggressive behavior and bit other animals. Unlike Ginger, Clyde do not display high amounts of stress, but the prospects for Ginger were grim given her behavior. I used the (modified as above) method on them. Afterward, Clyde did chase Ginger around the cage for the first night but he did not bite her. I was ready to throw in the towel thinking the method was "just forcing something to happen that was not meant to be." But then the second night he stopped being aggressive and the third they slept in the same box. Since then they've been fine. And now Ginger behaves like a "normal" glider. Not screaming and running away, being interactive, running on her wheel, and approaching us when we have treats for her. A whole different glider. 3. What other methods did you try and for how long? We have various methods we have used and we have taken the time to publish them in an "introductions guide." One method is the time-honored "swapping bedding / swapping cages / moving cages closer" method. Over the years, we have tried this method many times but we have found that it only works 50 / 50. We have also tried the "put them in a common pouch around your neck while they are sleeping" method. That has worked maybe a dozen times. We have also done the "put them in a scent-free neutral playground" method and that is hit and miss. We have discovered, strictly through observation that no matter what (non-wet) method you try, if a glider decides to be dominant or does not like the scent of another glider - he attacks. Maybe 50% of the time. Doesn't matter what method. We believe it is all about scent and dominance. That's why, under particular circumstances, we think (so far anyway) the wet method can be used when the other methods have been exhausted. 4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method? Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior. We seek a lot of counsel from vets and other glider experts. In the end, this is a careful judgment call. And we feel we acted in the best interests of the gliders in question to improve their quality of life. Especially Dizzy and Ginger. If they could talk they may say to you "Boy we hate being wet but that was only a few hours. Now I have a friend, I'm much happier and more stress-free than before." With regards "hiding it from the public" that is a big ask. We for years have gone out of our way to publish our findings on medicine, behavior, diet, etc. and some of that has met with controversy. But this is a good question. I for one have spoken out against showing videos on YouTube of gliders sitting on dogs' or cats' backs - because so many gliders are maimed or killed by cats and dogs. So for that kind of "publishing" which we don't see any redeeming value in - we object. But with something like this method (as modified) the purpose of publishing it is in the hopes that single gliders who are wasting away and SMing could be saved. So it's a double-edged sword. I am open-minded to "hiding" it but the other thing is that's not the nature of what we are about at LGRS. We have always had it as part of our charter to share our experiences with the glider community. But... if we do in fact discover that the joinings we have done were "not meant to happen in the first place" and that they are ticking time bombs and the two pairs hurt each other and the whole thing fails.... Then I will be happy to say so and then withdraw our condoning it under certain circumstances. I would also like to post an appeal for all of you who are considering a "petition." This is a democracy and for you to do that is certainly your right. But please consider a few things: 1. We have stated our reasons for trying this method (as we have modified it) as being righteous and in the best interests of the particular animals in question. The prospects are GRIM with certain lone gliders so the alternative is not an option unless we can find a better one. My moral and ethical compass is right on track. If I am proven wrong, that under these particular circumstances it will blow up and unravel in a few weeks or months - I will retract my support of it and admit I was wrong. But I will NOT admit I was wrong to try it. You come here and look a glider in the face that is self-mutilating and tell her we are giving up trying other methods. Try that. 2. I find it ironic that some people would mount an offensive against our 501(c)3 without so much as a phone call or some kind of direct dialog with us to understand what we are doing, what we are not doing, and why. I've said it before that we are an open book and unabashedly and regularly publish our findings, good or bad, so others can learn. This is one of those. Will we change our position. We may in fact change our position. We will strive to learn more from vets, from you, and from our gliders. We will share this learnings. 3. I would love to see all the breeders get together and "petition" themselves to set aside 5% of their breeding income (if you have income) and donate it to 501(c)3 glider rescues. Now that's something to put your energy into. To feed, house and rehabilitate some of the gliders you crank out that are surrendered. Maybe LGRS would not be a recipient because you don't agree with our practices. But that's the kind of energy and activity that should be more worthy of this community - versus making our humble rescue operation out to be villainous. (I am not calling anyone out in particular - this is just a general appeal) Thank you all for your patience and understanding and intelligent questions. We continue to be, at the service of unwanted gliders, and seeking to improve the quality of their lives. Many thanks, Ed @ LGRS P.S. We don't think a shower is the "right" way to get them wet if in fact you are compelled to get them wet for some legitimate reason. We have not done that. P.P.S. The mouthwash thing, even though we used the non-alcoholic kind, could easily be dropped from the protocol. We are sensitive to everyone's feelings on this issue and although we did not observe any behavior that would indicate it hurt them, there is no reason to stubbornly hang on to that if it adds no value. Thank you all for your feedback on this. hpyhwn2003 Glider HI, USA 87 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Catman
They are allowing it on GliderCentral too. Things that make you go hmmm!
WHAT?!!!  Catman Glider Central doesn't allow it and you know that. And I'm betting that you know there is nothing like that going on there as I've seen your posts there about gliders getting wet so don't tell me you haven't read the thread on wet intros. Ed's been there too posting on the wet intro thread so he likely knows too there isn't anyone there "out to get" him. Bashing GC is just plain wrong. They aren't over there bashing Glider Gossip so just stop it will you. Catman Goose Catcher  CO, USA 2670 Posts @hpyhwn2003 What do you call this-The original post was edited (edited on GC really?  ). But if you look at hwh4ev's post she is jumping on the the original post to close him down. [quote=Sydvicious]FOR ALL MODS:PLZ BE AWARE THAT THIS IS NOT A BASHING POST!!! I am legally bound as a fellow charitable organization to try and stop the abuse of animals so please do not think I am trying to bash anyone, I am trying to give people on this forum an opportunity to legally do something about the subject at hand. This is directed at all those people that want to legally do something to stop the abuse of gliders due to this topic...I am the president of a 501 (c) 3 dog rescue and can tell you that what we have been discussing all day is legally considered animal cruelty and can be stopped. As a charitable organization rescues are under the obligation to help and preserve the health and well being of all animals and if a handling technique if found to be inhumane then they have an obligation to change that technique. If this is somehow compromised then we as citizens have the right to stop the abuse that is being done. I am willing to send this "rescue" a letter in hopes that they will conform to the correct way to treat animals but I will need your help so that we as a collective group will be able to, if necessary, report them to their local authorities in hopes that maybe they will do something to stop the cruelty. I am looking for people willing to at the very least sign a petition to help me stop this, if you are interested please PM me and let me know. [/quote] [quote=Marsupial_Mayhem]Yes but the rescue you mention is endorsing this method and stands behind it. Which leads me to believe he practices the method himself. If he is doing this, then he shouldn't have a rescue. [/quote] [quote=Marsupial_Mayhem hank you. We do have a representative of the Mill Breeder Project on this right now. [/quote] [quote=hwh4ev]the videos that are being shown to the public do not help gliders. case in point. on my facebook page yesterday a friend tagged a lady (cant say her name on here) with a picture of her putting a glider into a tub of water. cold or hot i do not know. the point is this- you show videos of this nature and other people will take it and think they are improving it with this kind of abuse. it is abuse period. if a lone glider is that sad and needs a buddy they wouldnt need to take their shower or whatever because the humane way would work. takes time. if you dont have the time then you need to downsize. disgusted in detroit. nancy p.s. mouthwash with or without alcohol is poison. gliders lick it. i will sign a petition to try to shut you down. you do more damage then you are willing to admit. bonding? the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point. [/quote]
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