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Ahsaehr Goofy Gorillatoes      USA 3478 Posts ALright, I will add my input about...guess what! darcy's diet! according to The Sugar glider resource center quote:
Darcy's diet was developed by Donna Fritz., a glider owner and wildlife rehabilitator in New York. It was approved by a Cornell University exotic veterinarian, and has been successfully in use for several years. .While it was developed when her glider, Lord Darcy, was ill, it has been used with hundreds of healthy gliders with success.
Each glider gets one tablespoon of ensure*, one tablespoon of fruits, one tablespoon of vegetables (variety is the key, it doesn't matter what fruits/veggies just a variety) This diet was developed for sick gliders and underweight gliders and a healthy glider may gain weight while on it, so their weight needs to be checked regularly. (I myself have had no problem with excess weight yet) The European version of "ensure" is called sustagen* Although the sugar glider resource center recommend not putting ensure in a water bottle I've had no problem with it. I just have to wash the bottle before I can put more in and let the part that they actually drink from (nozzel?) sit in hot water for about a minute. I fill the bottle with hot water and shake it then I take an old toothbrush or a baby bottle cleaner and get all the nasty gunk off the sides. Edited to add: if one uses a water bottle and does not thoroughly clean it EVERY night the bottle will sometimes not release the liquid and it starts to smell really really bad. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts Eric, if you follow the URLs I posted and read the recipes and take a look at the attribution, you will discover that the bulk of the ones I listed are vet or zoo-sanctioned. I understand your comment of stratified competencies in the vet field, but as kazko suggests, if we narrow the field too much, then there will be nothing. Imagine this: A newbie asks what to feed their glider. All of the experts weigh-in and then contradict each other and squabble and scare the hell out of the newbie. Sound familiar? That is not good, so I agree that a consensus should be reached on a generic answer that includes pointing people to the "best" diets. At least if we list the zoo diets, considering the background of zoologists and their nutrion departments, we are making a *reasonable* leap of faith that the diets are not junk. "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed cyclops rules...." I mean short of commissioning our own scientific, empirical, and comprehensive diet study, what are we to do? Do we allow newbies to bang around feeding trail mix and ice cream and other junk to their gliders? No, we need to provide some guidance that we can all agree to. No, it will not be perfect, but I think we should at least hone the list down to something that will get our collective nod and publish it. It will be a lot easier to push a sanctioned URL to that part of the gliderpedia when a newbie asks the question: "what should I feed my gliders?" Thoughts on a solution anyone?
mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts Quote:We of course have to agree on and negotiate with the correct zoological dept of an acredited university to do that. Or maybe piggy-back on a zoo-based shelter to do that. Actually this is a good idea and maybe not far from achievable. I think the request coming from the administration of a glider site that has been around awhile would deem sincere interest to later publicize results to assist a good cause in identifying diet needs of captive gliders in the U.S. Universities are always using grant monies to pay themselves for various studies. The first goal would be to get info on reputable universities, zoos or such WITH GLIDERS OR SPECIALIZED EXOTIC DEPT. and in which state are they located? And to inquire wether zoos or such are eligible for grant monies for studies. Which zoos have sugar gliders? Which zoos with sugar gliders might be willing to cooperate with a university if need be or even local rescuers. I think it would require giving them a report on the study that was done recently with concern of the components that interfered with proper results. For example: stress factors from traveling, sudden diet changes, etc. Hmmm....  1-Locate zoo, university or such. 2-Research possible grant and guidelines. 3-Locate local rescuers if need be. They could be in place of available gliders within zoo/university OR in addition to the study as another group. 4-Submit copy of recent study done. 5-List concerns and sesitivity issues with gliders to obtain proper results. Eric C Retired  TX, USA 2321 Posts I've been giving this a lot of thought, and have kept log of my thoughts that I've had about this over the past couple of weeks. I'm not going to bring any of those up, because I've come to realize the solution is simple. The forum and the Gliderpedia are seperate and have different goals. The forum is for discussions. The Gliderpedia is for validated information. If opinion is brought into the Gliderpedia or if authoritative information is put in the forum in the form of sticky topics, then the line between substantiated and unsubstantiated information gets blurred. For those that believe their diet is "perfect" or "proven" with no regard for showing scientific evidence to back up that claim, such sentiment falls into the realm of opinion, and that belongs in the forum until such information can otherwise be provided. This philosophy falls in line with Guidelines: Sources
Quoting that page, and emphasizing what is important in regard to this discussion, "Sources of information should be verifiable such that sources provides a bibliography or a list of references if printed, or if a human source is used then the human should have appropriate credentials bestowed by an accredited institution." LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts OK Eric so you have added Biologists to the thin layer of stakeholders with an incentive to care or do something about it. But to be fair to the spirit of my notion, that's kind of a tangential argument. Luckily, I for one have no laurels to rest on. I am no expert, nor pretender to that throne. I am simply a lover of sugar gliders. You must be referring to those who claim to be experts but are not and who may be associated in some way with diets or have some other axe to grind. Thankfully, yours truly has no such baggage. Nonetheless, as so many other laypersons, I lack proof on what to feed them. I therefore muddle through scrounging snippets of information here and there and hoping what my vet says is true. Your story about the one (commercial example) company is intriguing. The "NDA/$5,000" company seems to fall into the category of people I characterized above. The NDA packaged with the $5,000 seems like a cynical and disingenuous dichotomy - and such a pairing gives one pause as to the actual existence of the study. I mean, if you were the buyer of such information but then could not disclose the content of the study, what would its utility be? None that serves our purposes I can tell you. So the NDA is a way of rendering the results of the study useless, unless the buyer of same is like a rare art collector who just wants to stare at things on his or her own tomb wall and in total secrecy. Or simply a person wanting to enrich himself with knowledge and go to the grave with it. But if we had patrons of our "art" with money like that to bestow upon our community, of course we could ask them to commission our own study and it would be a moot point, wouldn't it? Anyway, despite my dire oversight of biologists being a caring constituency, the point I am trying to make, which seems to me lost in your reply, is that we lacked critical mass and momentum in getting a study commissioned. Not enough food companies who care. Not enough breeders/brokers/retailers who care... and apparently not enough biologists who care. In short, not enough of a constituency of any kind - commercial or academic - to generate enough cash to subsidize a real study, let alone many studies to prove/disprove the other. That's the point. Also, there are no laurels to rest on. Laurels are an allegory to work having been done with which to rest - and clearly with no substantial work having been evidenced, we shan't be resting on thin air. And sadly, until that real work happens, poseurs will fill the void. That is typical of infant "industries" where clear experts or leaders have yet to emerge. Poseurs shall fill the void until such time as we reach critical mass and then the truly annointed experts will exorcise the poseurs with the holy water of facts and the cross of figures. No facts? No figures? Poseurs continue to vomit bile. It's that easy. Otherwise the poseurs would in fact be true experts. Practically speaking, this means if you want "purity of content," don't hold your breath. That's why there is nothing to publish on the captive diet subject (and page) given your present content quality criteria. That is why I said you have created a self-fulfilled prophecy that the "captive diet" page will be empty. And that's fine, but it is your definition of quality that righteously (not being cynical here) makes it so, not the idea that anyone is resting on laurels. So let's call it like it is: You have a sense of quality and right and wrong and don't want to attribute anything not proven to this site and therefore besmirch your reputation or the site's reputation. That is a concept I can get behind and support. But that's what it is and it ain't no more. It's not that we collectively are being lazy or resting on laurels - or that there are fakes out there. The real issue is that you have a minimum content quality expectation and a low threshold for anything that may impinge the credibility of the site and want to side-step the mistake of backing something that will be disproven later. It's easier to dodge that bullet by setting a quality expectation for content that no one (at present) can pass. Essentially, the stark emptiness of that page is your way of saying no one is worthy of an expert designation at present. Point taken. Eric C Retired TX, USA 2321 Posts I mentioned biologists because there is actually a lot of research on sugar gliders done by the scientific community, more than we are aware of. When sugarglider.net was under previous ownership, there was a list on that site of scientific studies done that were either about or related to sugar gliders. I haven't read any of those papers. Yet. They're not easy to acquire, and they're definitely not cheap, however much, much cheaper than $5000. The commercial study was obviously ridiculous. Any study by any pet food company is not about the health of animals, it's about money. We both agree that waiting on commercial entities to do anything won't happen for a long time, if at all, and even if it happens there is no guarantee that the research is done properly. I don't think commercial sources should be considered as a source for information, either now or in the future, as it's simply not practical, and unreliable. That limits us to sourcing from the scientific community. I can hear the sigh. It's not as bad as you think. There is a lot of information out there, it's just difficult for lay people to acquire. When I mentioned that no one should rest on our laurels, the antecedent of "our" is meant as everyone that posted on these and other forums that have offered information regarding sugar gliders. To clarify further, when I say "us" or "we", I generally don't mean you and me, but everyone in the so called "sugar glider community". So, regarding resting on our laurels, I mean we should not assume that information is not out there simply because it is not being handed to us on a silver platter. I don't think our glass is empty, although it may not have anything in it. There is stuff to put in it and we have to be the ones that fill it. Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy Australia 1168 Posts I think it's about time, we pop this post back up to see if we can get some new responses! I hadn't read this thread for awhile and again found it interesting. My thoughts are a couple of zoos/sanctuaries which hold the basis for most sugar glider diets don't have the need to "push" any particular diet for personal reasons. They have researched and studied to find the ideal diet for their animals in their environment. To my thinking, these diets are probably the most accurate as the developers have the scientific resources at hand and no commercial gain from these diets , so they have worked out the most effective diet for the best health. The only thing I can see which they might factor, is that it would be cost and time effective to them to streamline some diets of different animals to include similar vitamin supplements over a broader range of their species ie. sustagen was replaced by soluvet/calcivet in the Healesville glider diet's nectar mix and therefore streamlined the process. This possibly did not mean soluvet was any better than sustagen but if offered the same result with less fuss of using different supplements. To me the biggest problem is that these facilities don't usually post these diets on the web, but will sometimes via email send to querying parties etc. When this happens, third party people then post the diet on the net and along the way the nectar mixes in these diets change as people substitute one product for another, or interpret the diet differently.ie. healesville diet. Depending on where on the web you look, this diet includes in it's nectar mix - lorikeet mix, vionate, different amount of eggs, water and honey etc. Some say its the Dr Debra McDonald diet which it is not..she did have an input I believe when she swapped soluvet/calivet for sustagen to streamline the sanctuaries species diets a little but the diet was in place long before that input. It is the same with BML. Ruth Rogers made some modifications to the leadbeatter mix (of Taronga zoo diet fame who got it from Healesville Sanctuary/Melbourne Zoo) at the time and then Betsy and Bourbon changed some. Now if you look at BML on the net, there are so many different versions listed on various sites, it's understandable new owners are totally confused. BML and its derivatives are not proven diets in the scientific sense as these modifications were not scientifically tested and verified to prove that they offered the same nutritional components of the original diet mix. The only true "back to basics" in this mix is actually go back to the original source ie. Taronga zoo diet or even back further to Taronga Zoo diet's source... Healesville Sanctuary when the diet was known as the sugar glider diet incorporating the Leadbeaters mix. People tend to forget that Leadbeater's mix (or artifical nectar mix which the zoos here now call it) is only a part of a diet not the whole thing. charliestar Glider TX, USA 100 Posts Could someone who has worked with suggies for quite a long time let me know if my diet is well rounded enough to keep my new little rescues healthy. I have had my two babies for about 3 months? 1. Fresh water daily 2. 1 feeder contains either gliderade or baby cereal mixed with baby fruit juice and baby food such as carrots, sweet potatos, squash, etc. 3. Another feeder contains canned bugs, different every night...crickets, grasshoppers, mealworms, canopillars. I sometimes substitute the bugs with hard boiled eggs, boiled chicken, or meat baby food. 4. The last feeder contains fresh fruit, which they are very picky about. They tend to eat canaloupe or melon best. I have tried apples, bananas, mango, pineapple, grapes, blueberries, rasberries, peaches, etc. and they don't eat them. I tried dried appricots too. They did not like them. I give them broccoli and potatoes. They love that. I alternate this stuff with fresh lettuce, dried papaya and strawberries, and some nuts. I also give them yogurt in one of the feeders about twice a week. They also like to have a cherry tomatoe sliced in half on occasion. That is about it. They really seem to enjoy all of the things I have mentioned. Shelby, the very shy one, had no hair on the last part of her tail when I got her. The person I got them from told me that the other one, Shana, would pull on Shelby's tail when she would try to eat. I have never seen Shana do this. About three months later, Shelby has a beautiful, full tail. I guess I must be doing something right. Anyway, I would just like to know for sure if my diet is ok and if anyone has any other food suggestions I can try I would welcome that information. I have spent a small fortune on food items. Many, many things that I researched and that have been recommended, my gliders will not touch. I hate wasting all of this stuff but they will just not eat some of these things no matter what I do to make it more appealing. set Starting Member 2 Posts Disclaimer: I have had sugies for 5 years, but I am not an exotic animal dietician. Charliestar: Fresh water is good. I use a hamster/small animal style water bottle and refresh it often (every other day when I am on top of it, weekly when I am not). I love gliderade and feed it almost every night, but there are several out there. Some they eat better than others and you have to watch the ingredients. My most recent one does not seem to be as palatable to them as the Avico(?) one I had been using. You also have to watch what else they are eating. You want a good ratio of fruit/veg to protien and too much gliderade can skew this some nights. Watch the baby food. I have read that onion powder is bad for them. Many baby foods have this ingredient unless you stick with a straight vegetable/fruit or straight meat one. Good high quality baby food vegetables are probably not as good for them as fresh/cooked veggies. The bugs are often labeled as bad because of a high fat content. I have only fed bugs on rare occasion. I would use another source of protien daily and only use bugs for entertainment (live ones make a fine occasional treat and there is nothing like watching your sugie go hunter on a bug). I would suggest boiled chicken/eggs/etc most days with some other low fat meat most other days with bugs only rarely (similar to nuts). One of the greatest diet issues for sugar gliders is calcium to phosphorous ratios. If their blood calcium gets low their blood will leach it from their bones. This makes the bones weak and causes other long term health issues. I found a site which showed the foods which had a high calcium ratio and I try to lean to them, I just googled it and I no longer remember the link, sorry. I also use glider dry as a food additive. I sprinkle it on their bugs and some of their other food. It sounds like you are doing fine. I know my sugies are annoyed by the same old thing and after a week of shredded/boiled chicken they prefer the eggs, but after 2 days of eggs they prefer the chicken again. variety among the foods which are good for them is for the best. My sugies are very different. My lone male (which my wife had when we met) likes some foods which the new two (whom I adopted when a friend had to move suddenly and could not take them) won't touch. They like semi/dried dates and fresh figs and he will not touch them. I am gonna get reamed for this last bit, I know, but I keep a small amount of high quality kitten/cat food which has been coated in glider dry in their cages all the time. Usually I throw it out every 2-3 days and they usually eat very little of it, but I saw this as an opportunity to sneak more glider dry in on them. Hope this helps you with your sugies. set Starting Member 2 Posts Eric: There has to be a middle ground to help people who just got their first glider and were told by some moron at the pet store to feed them grapes and cat food. If a link from the main page to this discussion or to a list of diets used by 'us' the community were available perhaps we could improve the lives of a few sugies. I know the philosophy of verifiable and provable information and agree. Proof and scientific information is best, but when we have not seemed to make progress on this issue in months... which is better for the gliders out there? my thoughts SET
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