Register Register New Posts Active Topics | Search Search | FAQ FAQ

GliderGossip GliderGossip
Sugar Gliders
Intro's success and failure!
Next |
Page: of 8
Intro's success and failure!
Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
10:37:02 AM
Yesterday morning I did another intro to try to get my three cages of gliders together. Here is how it went.

I did the wet down the cage of gliders. First the two small groups 2 & 2 together in the small cage. I got this four good and wet. Then I added my group of four and got them all wet and kept them going for about 1 hour. everyone was getting along and soaked at this point. Next I added the dry pouch. It took about 2 hours till all but 1 glider was in the pouch. I had two bright lights on this cage all day till about 9 pm last night. With the lights still on they all decided to come out. At this point I had some fighting with one male, so I pulled him. Then kept watching and had to pull one of the females as well due to fighting.

Over all I feel this has been a success. I now have 6 gliders in one group. However I also now have two single gliders that I have to try to put together.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
01:14:09 PM
kazko Little Bunny FooFoo GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kazko's Photo Album kazko's Journal TX, USA 6738 Posts
I would have done the 2 and 2 and then let them be together for a couple of months. I think you may have tackled too much here at once. And in the end, the wet method is just a method. It may very well not work for everyone.

Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
01:21:36 PM
bholland7 Face Hugger Visit bholland7's Photo Album bholland7's Journal USA 650 Posts
I feel the same Kazko. I was so stressed by the end of this. If I can get these two together then I will be down at least 1 cage. Do you think I should wait a couple weeks to try to intro the two singles?
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
01:50:03 PM
viciousencounters Goofy Gorillatoes GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit viciousencounters's Photo Album viciousencounters's Journal NM, USA 2907 Posts
I think introducing the singles to each other will be fine for right now so they are not lonely.

If you plan on introducing them to the colony I would follow Kazko's advice and wait a few months.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
01:52:53 PM
bholland7 Face Hugger Visit bholland7's Photo Album bholland7's Journal USA 650 Posts
Personally I'm not ready to even think about another try with the colony of 6. I just want these two together so they don't get lonely.
Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
03:55:25 PM
virtual_diver Face Hugger Visit virtual_diver's Photo Album virtual_diver's Journal USA 574 Posts
I tried Kazko's method last night too. Total failure. I have 2 lone gliders who hate each other. I think my small cage was too large. One glider ran all over just like in the video. The other just hung on the bars under the water. She would crab every time the other came near. It was horrible. I felt sooo guilty! When I intoduce the pouch, neither went in it. Finally Kiwi (who's pouch protective)did go in & stuck her head back out & had the meanest face. She would not allow Lady in the pouch.

They both ended on the side of the cage closests to me for over 1 1/2 hours. That is a long time to hang on the side of the cage. I finally caught them & put them in the pouch. They fought & I couldn't see what was going on. I gave up & put them into their own pouch, into their own cage. I was exhausted, they were exhausted & I have probably undone all my bonding/taming.

Kiwi has mellowed so much since she lost the baby I really thought we would have success.



Edited by - virtual_diver on Jan 08 2011 03:56:20 PM
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
05:28:12 PM
Candy Cuddle Bear Visit Candy's Photo Album FL, USA 8110 Posts
I would not intentionally submit my gliders to being soaking wet - especially this time of year when my house tends to be on the cool side. Unless you warm the room up to 75 or 80 degrees, maybe they would be OK but if the room is cool you run the risk of lowering the glider's body temperature rather suddenly.

How can we tell folks whose gliders accidentally get wet to get them warm and dry quickly and keep them warm until they are fully dry - then turn around and instruct people to spray their gliders with water???????
Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
07:10:22 PM
WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by Candy

I would not intentionally submit my gliders to being soaking wet - especially this time of year when my house tends to be on the cool side. Unless you warm the room up to 75 or 80 degrees, maybe they would be OK but if the room is cool you run the risk of lowering the glider's body temperature rather suddenly.

How can we tell folks whose gliders accidentally get wet to get them warm and dry quickly and keep them warm until they are fully dry - then turn around and instruct people to spray their gliders with water???????




My thoughts exactly..

This method seems a bit risky (as Candy mentioned), and IMO, a little cruel... Definitely not one that I'll ever be trying.

Edited by - WintersSong on Jan 08 2011 07:12:40 PM
Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
10:12:07 PM
virtual_diver Face Hugger Visit virtual_diver's Photo Album virtual_diver's Journal USA 574 Posts
I'll have to admit that I think your right. It felt cruel. They were so pitiful looking it broke my heart.

It was nice & warm in my house & I had a heater going in the bath. I kept them in the bathroom until I felt they were dry. I warmed their pouches & put extra blankets in. I have been worried about them ever since.

They seemed fine at play time tonight but acted like they were afraid of what was going to happen next. Pretty much stayed on me instead of playing all over the bathroom.

I won't do this again. I just worry about the girls being alone.

Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
10:34:18 PM
CozyFlowers Starting Member Blue River, Oregon 6 Posts
THIS IS ANIMAL ABUSE
DON'T SOAK YOUR GLIDER TO DO INTRO
PLEASE VISIT GLIDERCENTRAL.NET TO FIND THE CORRECT METHOD OF HOW TO DO INTRO WITH YOUR GLIDERS.

THIS METHOD THAT THIS IDIOT CAME UP WITH WILL ONLY SHOCK AND POSSIBLY KILL YOUR GLIDER.

REMEMBER IF YOU THINK THIS IS COOL THEN DO IT TO YOURSELF AND TELL ME THEN IF YOU THINK ITS HUMANE....

DON'T BE A VICTIM OF MISINFORMATION

Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
10:50:13 PM
sbear3s Face Hugger Visit sbear3s's Photo Album 745 Posts
I don't understand. What is the point of wetting gliders for intro's? Makes no sense to me. It's abusive! It has to be stressful for them. This post really disturbs me. If someone is new to gliders or introducing gliders please don't wet your gliders. This is not the way to do it. Those poor babies.
Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:00:57 PM
Anonymous - 4 Posts
Don't be an ass, Cozy. It's only going to "shock and possibly kill your glider" if you don't bother reading everything he said to do and if you're not smart enough to realise that you shouldn't try it in a cool/cold room.

The water is used as a distraction. Direct quote "It is designed to force them to fixate on other things besides the newbies, their smell, or any territorial or alpha issues. I have found that when sugar gliders are fixated, frightened, scared, threatened, whatever you want to call it, they will flock together for safety in numbers where they can. This immediately breaks down the normal smell and territorial barriers and allows the animals to become immediately socialized without the expected fussing, fighting or possible wounds which of course are highly stressful."

"PROCEDURE

I use water and being wet as a fixation device. While fixated on the abnormal stimulus, sugar gliders are very much less interested in new smells and the fighting that comes with protecting territory. Instead, they focus solely on the abnormal stimulus, and in this case, all they want to do is get away from it."

quote:
Originally posted by CozyFlowers

THIS IS ANIMAL ABUSE
DON'T SOAK YOUR GLIDER TO DO INTRO
PLEASE VISIT GLIDERCENTRAL.NET TO FIND THE CORRECT METHOD OF HOW TO DO INTRO WITH YOUR GLIDERS.

THIS METHOD THAT THIS IDIOT CAME UP WITH WILL ONLY SHOCK AND POSSIBLY KILL YOUR GLIDER.

REMEMBER IF YOU THINK THIS IS COOL THEN DO IT TO YOURSELF AND TELL ME THEN IF YOU THINK ITS HUMANE....

DON'T BE A VICTIM OF MISINFORMATION



Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:03:09 PM
Dahlia_2020 Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Dahlia_2020's Photo Album SC, USA 1419 Posts
Yes, you want to keep your home warm if you are going to try this method. You also want the water to be lukewarm, not cold. You also don't want them directly in the spray, but more like they are getting misted. The point is to distract them and to dampen/combine their scents and to hopefully get them to seek each other out for comfort and mutual licking and grooming... Not drown them.

This method isn't for everyone, and if you can get gliders together via traditional methods, then good for you. But I've used this method twice. First time with introducing a colony of three (1 male and 2 females) to a colony of two (both females)... and then that combined colony of 5 to a single male. None of these gliders are related. I now have a happy colony of 6 instead of three separate cages with an over-grooming glider in two of them.

I will say that both times though, it didn't end with just the shower. After everyone being in the pouch for a little while (first time is was a couple of hours, second time it was about 7 hours) there was one glider (different one each time) that would start picking at one of the new gliders. Not viciously, but an obvious attempt to push that glider from the pouch even though it had accepted one of the other newcomers. When that happened, I used an improvised version of that pouch (can't for the life of me remember the name of it at the moment) that was basically just a bonding pouch but it had two sections in it. So you could put one glider on one side and one on the other so they would be able to stay together in the pouch without being able to hurt one another because there is a layer of fleece and/or mesh inbetween them. Thus forcing them to get used to each other's scents and finally come to the conclusion that maybe a new playmate isn't such a bad thing after all. Once a glider gets used to another glider's scent being in the colony pouch, it does make a difference and becomes familiar.

Virtual diver, I would actually suggest this for your two. That way you won't have to worry about them hurting each other while they work things out and come to accept each other. Now they have a pre-established history that is not so good, so its going to be hard to overcome that with just regular playtime meetings, when they are going to automatically go on the defensive... but if it's during the day when they both want to sleep, they should settle down after some initial crabbing and go to sleep and then become used to the idea of having the other in the sleeping pouch with them.

With the first introduction I had to do this for several days before allowing everyone to spend a night together in the main cage. Second time, it was a week, and then allowing the two gliders that were having trouble getting along to live together in another cage with only each other for company to make sure they wouldn't revert to having issues once back with the rest of the colony. It worked. I finally put those two back into the colony and everyone has been together for a few months, no problem.



Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:08:22 PM
WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous

Don't be an ass, Cozy. It's only going to "shock and possibly kill your glider" if you don't bother reading everything he said to do and if you're not smart enough to realise that you shouldn't try it in a cool/cold room.

The water is used as a distraction. Direct quote "It is designed to force them to fixate on other things besides the newbies, their smell, or any territorial or alpha issues. I have found that when sugar gliders are fixated, frightened, scared, threatened, whatever you want to call it, they will flock together for safety in numbers where they can. This immediately breaks down the normal smell and territorial barriers and allows the animals to become immediately socialized without the expected fussing, fighting or possible wounds which of course are highly stressful."

"PROCEDURE



What I am wondering is, why post anonymously? If you feel that this method is okay, why hide?

Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:09:49 PM
WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by sbear3s

I don't understand. What is the point of wetting gliders for intro's? Makes no sense to me. It's abusive! It has to be stressful for them. This post really disturbs me. If someone is new to gliders or introducing gliders please don't wet your gliders. This is not the way to do it. Those poor babies.



The point seems to be to put fear into the gliders.

I agree -- abusive, absolutely. I am really just..shocked, and disappointed, that people would approve of abuse.

Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:34:09 PM
tjlong Glider Visit tjlong's Photo Album 136 Posts
I am with Wintersong, if you are going to take a stand and say this method is safe then why are you saying it anomyously? Really, if you believe in something show yourself.

This is a dangerous method. I don't get it. There are other much less traumatizing ways to intro gliders. In the wild gliders are scent driven. Period. They don't come together in a colony out of fear. This is definitely an unnatural way to intro and it isn't humane in my opinion either. Wow, way to go people. Anyone want to buy the Brooklyn bridge, I'll sell it to you cheap!
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:51:15 PM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
I wasn't going to post because I had mixed feelings about it, but especially after hearing these two stories, it does seem very disturbing. Those pics break my heart. :( I'm really afraid of any newbies coming in here and trying this. We can't even get them to do quarantine. I can imagine them trying this as a quick fix to get intros to move faster now.
Information
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:56:12 PM
hpyhwn2003 Glider Visit hpyhwn2003's Photo Album HI, USA 87 Posts
I would never use this method to introduce gliders. Bonding both to a human and to another glider should be based on trust not fear. This method can lead to sick gliders plain and simple no matter how warm the room and water is. A small draft catches them and they'll catch a cold or worse.
quote:
Originally posted by Dahlia_2020

I will say that both times though, it didn't end with just the shower. After everyone being in the pouch for a little while (first time is was a couple of hours, second time it was about 7 hours) there was one glider (different one each time) that would start picking at one of the new gliders. Not viciously, but an obvious attempt to push that glider from the pouch even though it had accepted one of the other newcomers. When that happened, I used an improvised version of that pouch (can't for the life of me remember the name of it at the moment) that was basically just a bonding pouch but it had two sections in it. So you could put one glider on one side and one on the other so they would be able to stay together in the pouch without being able to hurt one another because there is a layer of fleece and/or mesh inbetween them. Thus forcing them to get used to each other's scents and finally come to the conclusion that maybe a new playmate isn't such a bad thing after all. Once a glider gets used to another glider's scent being in the colony pouch, it does make a difference and becomes familiar.



Seems to me the method didn't work and you had to revert to "old" bonding mathods of having the gliders in a double bonding pouch while they sleep during the day anyway. So my questions is... Why on earth should we wet them down just to end up going back to safer and more humane methods in the long run?

Edited by - hpyhwn2003 on Jan 08 2011 11:56:49 PM
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 08 2011
11:57:29 PM
KneeLee Super Glider Visit KneeLee's Photo Album USA 333 Posts
Okay. Everyone needs to take a deep breath.
Obviously the way it looks like virtual driver soaked her glider is NOT how it's suppost to work. A "light spray" is how I gathered it was supposed to work... not drowning it.
I don't think it's animal abuse&& to be honest I think everyone is taking it a little far by saying it's "disturbing" &&whatnot.
It's for EXTREME cases, not for introducing one glider to another. Maybe everyone needs to keep that in mind.
Information
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:05:29 AM
WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by KneeLee

Okay. Everyone needs to take a deep breath.
Obviously the way it looks like virtual driver soaked her glider is NOT how it's suppost to work. A "light spray" is how I gathered it was supposed to work... not drowning it.
I don't think it's animal abuse&& to be honest I think everyone is taking it a little far by saying it's "disturbing" &&whatnot.
It's for EXTREME cases, not for introducing one glider to another. Maybe everyone needs to keep that in mind.



I saw photos on facebook where someone from this forum had pictures of their gliders under what appeared to be the shower (running), with a caption saying that she kept them there for AN HOUR. How is that disturbing???

Either the method is wrong, or people are doing it wrong.

Though I have to tell you, all pictures I've seen of this method look like cruelty, and all descriptions I've heard of this method sound like cruelty.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:06:38 AM
shadow Goofy Gorillatoes GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit shadow's Photo Album MO, USA 2332 Posts
i agree with kneelee this should only be use for extreme cases. if kazko couldnt get these 2 cages together he was going to rehome a colony and the new colony was from a friend who passed away. ed/lucky glider has used this method and has worked for him and he deals with gliders who come from real abuse.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:08:15 AM
hpyhwn2003 Glider Visit hpyhwn2003's Photo Album HI, USA 87 Posts
I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree. This is a disturbing post as this is not the way bonding should be done. There are other safer methods even in extreme cases.
Information
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:10:32 AM
hpyhwn2003 Glider Visit hpyhwn2003's Photo Album HI, USA 87 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by shadow

i agree with kneelee this should only be use for extreme cases. if kazko couldnt get these 2 cages together he was going to rehome a colony and the new colony was from a friend who passed away. ed/lucky glider has used this method and has worked for him and he deals with gliders who come from real abuse.




I have to ask...How would this friend feel if he knew how his gliders had been treated to achieve the bonding?
Information
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:15:45 AM
shadow Goofy Gorillatoes GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit shadow's Photo Album MO, USA 2332 Posts
quote:
virtual_diver Dec 30 2010 : 08:49:50 AM
Wow, very interesting! Seems kind of drastic. But when nothing else works..... Thanks for sharing Kazko!

that was posted on kazko's journal comments. how come there is no mention of animal abuse there.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:17:03 AM
KneeLee Super Glider Visit KneeLee's Photo Album USA 333 Posts
Hpyhwn2003-
SHE probably would have been fine with it KNOWING that it was all done with the well-being of the gliders in mind. Knowing that they would all live together happily&& not have to go to a new home. Kazko was sweet enough to take them in&& did NOT want to sent them away.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:20:05 AM
shadow Goofy Gorillatoes GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit shadow's Photo Album MO, USA 2332 Posts
like i said it was either that or he would have to rehome them because there were to many cages and his time was divided to much between all the cages. so she would have been fine with it since she since them to kazko to be cared for so im sure she would want him to do what he could to keep them.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:29:59 AM
thefotokat Glider 177 Posts
I do not agree with this treatment for any reason. Some gliders simply do not want to be with certain other gliders. Introductions should never be forced to make life easier for us. I constantly tell people that when you add gliders to your home, you should be prepared to care for those gliders as a separate colony forever if they do not want to join an established colony. While it may be possible to force an animal to live with others, it should not be done. A glider forced to live in a cage with others it does not accept greatly increases the chances for illness and other issues. I am also a rescue and sanctuary and I have never forced gliders to colonize. My workload would be a lot less if I could introduce some of my pairs together to reduce cage numbers, but I did not become a rescue to make my life easier. I did it to make gliders' lives safer. No glider should ever be deliberately stressed. That's my opinion.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:31:20 AM
hpyhwn2003 Glider Visit hpyhwn2003's Photo Album HI, USA 87 Posts
I'm not knocking anyone for what they have already done. What's done is done. I am saying quite simply that I disagree with the method and would never recommend it's use. That is where I stand on this issue but I'm sure I already made that point pretty clear.

Edited by - hpyhwn2003 on Jan 09 2011 12:34:51 AM
Information
avatar
Jan 09 2011
12:36:02 AM
WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by KneeLee

A "light spray" is how I gathered it was supposed to work..



Taken directly from Kazko's blog post on this method:

"They do need to be absolutely soaking wet.".. that's more than a light spray.
He also states to keep 'em wet, and "in this situation" for over an hour.

Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
07:03:21 AM
KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy Gliderpedia Editor Visit KuroNeko's Photo Album USA 1617 Posts
Honestly people, step back!

This method was done as a LAST RESORT. And I would only recommend this as a LAST RESORT.

You CANNOT tell me these gliders were FORCED to live with each other because if they hadn't accepted each other obviously they would be fighting!

The ONLY concern that came to mind with this method was ears drying out and crumbling off since that happened to one of our members who's gliders fell in the toilet.

If re-homing can be prevented, why not take advantage of that. It was successful for Ed, and I trust his judgment as a rescue.

OBVIOUSLY the idiot on FB misunderstood and made a mistake. The journal is crystal, but apparently there is always room for misinterpretation.

I repeat, this is a LAST RESORT method.


Here's a quote from Terry's Journal Comments:

quote:
Kazko
I understand your feelings. However, consider the stress and cruelness of putting two animals together that then ball up and fight. The intent is to mitigate this possibility to highly increase the success rate. It's cruel to restrain your animal for nail trimming or to draw blood, but as owners we do it.
Default, miscellaneous
avatar
Jan 09 2011
07:13:24 AM
fuzzbuttzmom Starting Member 1 Posts
I'm sorry there is NO excuse for this abuse!!!!!!!!that is like saying the kids dont get along cage them , put them in a shower for an hour. You cant make Gliders get along. If you dont have the room and cages, DONT GET MORE Sugar Gliders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think animal control should be called !!!!!I dont care if they were told to do this, do research, ask other opions, I am just SICK TO MY STOMACH for these babys. You dont deserve to have them This is the Facebook posting I saw it on. I will continue to pray for these babys and all that have STUPID Owners. Error, missing URL. 3
 Look what I found on Ebay
Intro's success and failure!
Next |
Page: of 8

GliderGossip GliderGossip
Sugar Gliders
Intro's success and failure!