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LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts     TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by fuzzbuttzmom
I'm sorry there is NO excuse for this abuse!!!!!!!!that is like saying the kids dont get along cage them , put them in a shower for an hour. You cant make Gliders get along. If you dont have the room and cages, DONT GET MORE Sugar Gliders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think animal control should be called !!!!!I dont care if they were told to do this, do research, ask other opions, I am just SICK TO MY STOMACH for these babys. You dont deserve to have them This is the Facebook posting I saw it on. I will continue to pray for these babys and all that have STUPID Owners. www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2074679&id=1422340443http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2074679&id=1422340443http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2074679&id=1422340443
Hold on. The wet method is not abuse. What's abuse is for single gliders to languish alone their whole lives which, I can tell you from experience, leads often to self mutilation and depression. That's abuse. Let's separate the issues of bad husbandry practices, over-breeding and neglect from legitimate methods for helping gliders to be introduced to one another if they are alone. Here at LGRS, we do our bests to introduce gliders who are single. It's about quality of life. As you will see in the article I posted here: www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31178
...the simple wetting of gliders for a few hours is nothing but a mild inconvenience for them. No, they don't like it. But you can literally SAVE LIVES by doing successful introductions. Believe me, we have done dozens upon dozens of intros and this method seems to us, by far, the best one yet - and we've tried them all over the years. That said, nothing is foolproof. And I would not recommend doing the wetting repeatedly if it just does not take. That in fact would be abusive. fuzzbuttzmom is correct in saying that you can't force gliders to get along. Some never will. The idea with the wet method is not to force them to get along, but to remove some of the environmental roadblocks to them getting along initially. Please read the link above to get the full story of "why" it works. thefotokat Glider 177 Posts Please don't call anyone stupid. It won't help anything. Let's stick to the issue of this method. There should NEVER be a need for a "last resort" with introductions. It's not necessary. We constantly tell people who are considering bringing more gliders into their home to be prepared to keep them as a separate colony if they or the established gliders do not accept each other. It's simple as that. There is absolutely no reason to cause them stress and force them to live together. They should never have been taken into a home that was not prepared to add a separate cage. Aside from my concerns about the initial wetting step (illness and stress) there is also the after effects. The gliders are forced to choose between warmth/dry with a stranger or cold/wet. Survival instinct may cause them to choose the first option, but that is not the same as accepting a cagemate. Once they are all dry and warm territorial behavior may resume. This has already been witnessed by those who have executed this method. This behavior could happen one, two or twelve hours later. It could happen the next day or when food is added. It could happen when the owner is not there to intervene. Newer owners may think that once the gliders enter the same pouch all is well when that is simply not true. New owners need to be taught that each animal is different and that it is vital for them to watch their animal and learn its behavior...to see what it likes and doesn't like and to proceed accordingly. That is humane treatment. Teaching them that it's OK to force your wishes upon them says that it's not important to observe your glider and get to know its personality. Investing time and effort in moving at your gliders pace when it comes to introductions and bonding builds a solid foundation of trust. Endorsing this method, to me, says there's no need for trust building...just create an environment so hostile that the glider is forced to do what you want. This would be like telling owners to electrify the cage bars so that the glider has no choice but to get on your hand. My opinion is that this is wrong. As to comparing this method to the stress caused by nail clipping or rendering medical treatment...apples and oranges. Nails must be clipped to prevent harm. Medicine must be dispensed to prevent harm. Vet visits must be done to prevent harm. There is nothing to gain for the gliders by forcing them into one cage. I, too, am a rescue and sanctuary. I've been on these boards for years. If I did something that was not good or potentially harmful for gliders I would not expect it to be held up as an example. I, personally, do not care "who" made up this method or "who" has used it. That does not alleviate the concerns I have. I will not condone something I feel is wrong simply because of "who" is doing it. Owning any animals brings with it responsibility. You must clean up after it, feed it and take it to the vet. Those things may not always be convenient for the human, but they are needed for the animal's physical and mental health. Most of us come to these boards to educate. Some people are open to that and others are simply looking for someone to say it's OK to do what they want. We are supposed to be here to act as the animals' voice...to try to get through to those who act without thought of consequences or what's best for their animals. I try to look ahead to what today's actions can lead to. If it is said that's it OK to get gliders wet, to force gliders to live together then how can we later say you must move at the glider's pace to build trust? If I were screening someone for adoption and they said they were planning on using this method I can tell you that they would not be adopting from me. For me, this is unacceptable treatment of animals. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by CozyFlowers
THIS IS ANIMAL ABUSE 
DON'T SOAK YOUR GLIDER TO DO INTRO
PLEASE VISIT GLIDERCENTRAL.NET TO FIND THE CORRECT METHOD OF HOW TO DO INTRO WITH YOUR GLIDERS.
THIS METHOD THAT THIS IDIOT CAME UP WITH WILL ONLY SHOCK AND POSSIBLY KILL YOUR GLIDER.
REMEMBER IF YOU THINK THIS IS COOL THEN DO IT TO YOURSELF AND TELL ME THEN IF YOU THINK ITS HUMANE....
DON'T BE A VICTIM OF MISINFORMATION
excuse me? We have to go to glider central to learn how to do things "right." Umm I don't think so. There is a treasure trove of information here (and there) on how to introduce gliders. The time-honored method of bedding swapping and cage swapping, etc. is old school and hit and miss. now I have a question for you. How may glider introductions have you done? One? Two? Three? I have done no less than a hundred and I can tell you there is nothing on glider central that can't be found repeated in dozens of other sites on how to join gliders. We are in the business of rescuing, rehabilitating, re-homing gliders. We care for no less than 90 at the moment. Besides the obvious malnutrition issues, the worst thing for gliders is to be alone. I can't count the number of depressed, over-groomed, nasty looking gliders that come in here when they are alone. When you can successfully join them with another glider the results are fantastic. They eat better, play better, and mostly stop over-grooming. It's wonderful. I am willing to try new methods to see this happen. So please, gliders being a little wet for a few hours is a small price to pay for them to have a lifetime of better health and happiness. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by thefotokat
Please don't call anyone stupid. It won't help anything. Let's stick to the issue of this method.
There should NEVER be a need for a "last resort" with introductions. It's not necessary. We constantly tell people who are considering bringing more gliders into their home to be prepared to keep them as a separate colony if they or the established gliders do not accept each other. It's simple as that. There is absolutely no reason to cause them stress and force them to live together. They should never have been taken into a home that was not prepared to add a separate cage.
Aside from my concerns about the initial wetting step (illness and stress) there is also the after effects. The gliders are forced to choose between warmth/dry with a stranger or cold/wet. Survival instinct may cause them to choose the first option, but that is not the same as accepting a cagemate. Once they are all dry and warm territorial behavior may resume. This has already been witnessed by those who have executed this method. This behavior could happen one, two or twelve hours later. It could happen the next day or when food is added. It could happen when the owner is not there to intervene. Newer owners may think that once the gliders enter the same pouch all is well when that is simply not true.
New owners need to be taught that each animal is different and that it is vital for them to watch their animal and learn its behavior...to see what it likes and doesn't like and to proceed accordingly. That is humane treatment. Teaching them that it's OK to force your wishes upon them says that it's not important to observe your glider and get to know its personality. Investing time and effort in moving at your gliders pace when it comes to introductions and bonding builds a solid foundation of trust. Endorsing this method, to me, says there's no need for trust building...just create an environment so hostile that the glider is forced to do what you want. This would be like telling owners to electrify the cage bars so that the glider has no choice but to get on your hand. My opinion is that this is wrong.
As to comparing this method to the stress caused by nail clipping or rendering medical treatment...apples and oranges. Nails must be clipped to prevent harm. Medicine must be dispensed to prevent harm. Vet visits must be done to prevent harm. There is nothing to gain for the gliders by forcing them into one cage.
I, too, am a rescue and sanctuary. I've been on these boards for years. If I did something that was not good or potentially harmful for gliders I would not expect it to be held up as an example. I, personally, do not care "who" made up this method or "who" has used it. That does not alleviate the concerns I have. I will not condone something I feel is wrong simply because of "who" is doing it.
Owning any animals brings with it responsibility. You must clean up after it, feed it and take it to the vet. Those things may not always be convenient for the human, but they are needed for the animal's physical and mental health. Most of us come to these boards to educate. Some people are open to that and others are simply looking for someone to say it's OK to do what they want. We are supposed to be here to act as the animals' voice...to try to get through to those who act without thought of consequences or what's best for their animals. I try to look ahead to what today's actions can lead to. If it is said that's it OK to get gliders wet, to force gliders to live together then how can we later say you must move at the glider's pace to build trust?
If I were screening someone for adoption and they said they were planning on using this method I can tell you that they would not be adopting from me. For me, this is unacceptable treatment of animals.
Kate, we first tried the more traditional methods - the ones you and I have used for years - in getting some of the gliders together. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It seems to me that the scent being different and the exertion of dominance just get in the way with some gliders despite the more gentle ways of doing intros. So we tried this method on the same gliders who failed intro so miserably (Clyde and Ginger) using the more traditional methods. And it worked. We were thrilled because both of them were languishing solo. Pulling out their fur, running in circles, being frightened of everything. I'm sorry, it's not like we are hitting them with a fire hose for goodness sakes. I hold them in my hand and run a tepid trickle of water on them and work it in to their fur and dab their hind quarters with a few drops of mouthwash. The "de-scenting" of them seems to take their minds off of scent altogether so they have a chance for their respective scents to co-mingle while they are grooming each other and drying off. I respect your personal judgment on this and that's your right. But to us, this is about quality of life and the lesser of two evils. I would not condone doing this just to join cages together. I am condoning it for single gliders where other methods have failed. In the end, to us, this is a quality of life issue and in some cases a "saving life" issue. Can it be abused? yes, but we are using it only when it makes sense.
thefotokat Glider 177 Posts quote:
Originally posted by LuckyGlider
We are in the business of rescuing, rehabilitating, re-homing gliders.
As am I. quote:
Originally posted by LuckyGlider
We care for no less than 90 at the moment. Besides the obvious malnutrition issues, the worst thing for gliders is to be alone. I can't count the number of depressed, over-groomed, nasty looking gliders that come in here when they are alone. When you can successfully join them with another glider the results are fantastic. They eat better, play better, and mostly stop over-grooming.
Here I will disagree. I have taken in many single gliders. While I do feel that most gliders prefer to be housed in a colony, I have seen single gliders who became more stressed with other gliders. I don't recommend planning on keeping a solo glider, but it will not kill them if they are provided with proper enrichment and human interaction. I do not agree with forcing introductions. I cannot see the logic in it. While I am always open to new techniques, I will only use and endorse those which I feel benefit the gliders. When it comes to introductions, I do not feel there is a need to force them by a method such as this one. It would make it much easier on me if I forced some cages of gliders together, but I cannot see how it would improve the lives of those gliders. My opinion is based on my years of experience and beliefs regarding animal rescue. I, too, have done numerous introductions. Even if I were not a rescue, I would still be allowed to have an opinion. CozyFlowers is allowed theirs regardless of the number of intros they've done. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts There are a few other perspectives I would like to share. One deals with water itself and when it can be used on a glider and the other deals with the idea of "forcing" an introduction. First, a point on "water": While gliders don't like to be wet, despite the fact they are original denizens of RAINforests, it is not that big of a deal when they get wet. In fact, we routinely, under veterinarian's orders, provide hydrotherapy treatment, wet/dry bandage treatment, and honey treatment to gliders who have open wounds. For example, during this past year alone, we have done hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen gliders. This consists of running tepid water (or in some cases pre-prepared saline in hermetically sealed syringes) over the glider's body - on and around the wound area - in order to flush out debris and help to promote granulation of the wound. As a result they get....umm wet. And then they retreat to their pouches and dry off. You can't really rub them dry when they have a wound so they stay wet and snuggle in to their pouch to get dry. This type of therapy is usually repeated every other day for a few weeks. At no time has any glider - after being wet from this - ever suffered medical harm. In fact it has helped them to heal. So the notion that getting them wet is cruel or abusive - after having done this with so many gliders to GOOD effect is simply un-informed and does not take in enough fact. The fact that they look pitiful when they are wet is just a visual lightning rod for people to cry abuse. Look, we are not hitting them with a fire hose and drowning them for goodness sakes. In addition, vets use hydrotherapy to clear away wounds from necrotic flesh and they (and we) use water to flush out debris and blood even on areas of their body that are not damaged so they don't over-groom that area. So besides the "wet" method of introduction, I can count two other legitimate reasons for getting gliders wet. In short, these animals, who hail from RAINforests, avoid getting wet, but when they do get wet it's really not that big of a deal. Second, regarding the "forcing" of introductions... There may be some confusion here. Clearly, if the gliders are not getting along after being introduced (regardless of method) they should be separated. If they are balling up and biting one another - it would only be "forcing" the introduction to leave them together. The wet method is not "forcing." It is a method that attempts to remove (not force) some of the behaviors that get in the way of introduction having to do with territory and scent. Removing those barriers is not "forcing." Leaving them together if they fail introduction would be forcing and obviously that could lead to maiming or death. The bottom line is gliders can get wet. It is ok to get them wet to remove stuck-on debris so they won't rip out their fur over-grooming that area. It is ok to get them wet for hydrotherapy with open wounds (under vet's instructions), and, if you have tried other methods to join single gliders, it is certainly worth a try to introduce them. Gliders being alone if it is not necessary is easier to characterize as abuse to me vs. them being wet for a few hours. One is a few hours, the other is a lifetime. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts Wow quite a few people have been asking more about hydrotherapy, both from here and from emails. Here is more on that subject that I posted elsewhere just now: Hydrotherapy in the simplest terms is running water over an affected area. Hydrotherapy can be done with warm water. In some cases, hydrotherapy is done with sterile saline solution and introduced with a hermetically sealed plastic syringe. Here are a few examples when we have, under orders from our vet(s), used hydrotherapy: 1. After wet/dry bandage treatment, we used hydrotherapy on the head and neck of Padme, a rescue who's mating wound was hidden and progressed to an abscess. That abscess when cleaned-out and drained by a vet caused the skin on top of her skull to slough off. After three weeks of wet/dry bandaging and daily changing of the gauze, we began hydrotherapy. Every day. It started with sterile saline and after three weeks, we were able to use tap water. Around the edges of the wound, the water was used to flush out debris and stimulate skin growth and granulation. It took 6 months for the skin to finally stretch and cover her skull. 6 months of hydrotherapy. That's not abuse. That's saving life. With water. Today, although single, she is a happy little glider and getting her head and body wet every day with water did not phase her. So no one can tell me getting a glider wet is abusive. 2. Eye infections. Hyrdotherapy is a common method to use when gliders' eyes become weepy or infected. It is crucial to keep the corners of their eyes clear of debris and puss if they are having eye problems. This is also true of post enucleation surgery when the eyeball has to be removed. One our our rescues Doc, from the dwarf colony, has had regular bouts with eye puss. Our vet has encouraged hydrotherapy and special eye drops for that. He gets all wet in the process. Another rescue, who has since been adopted, called Makudo had hydrotherapy with sterile water after his enucleation surgery. 3. Open mating wounds or over-grooming wounds. We have had occasion to use regular hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen or so gliders this past year who either came in with or received wounds from other members of their colonies. Depending on the size of the wound, vets may sometimes stitch them shut but with gliders, this often leads to abscesses which can be deadly. Many vets like the idea of the wound healing open. In this case, both honey treatment and hydrotherapy are common methods. Of course with the hydrotherapy they get soaking wet. Every other day for two or three weeks. But it's worth it because the wound heals well. Gliders receiving this treatment for medical reasons recently were Dizzy, Ginger, Clyde, Darla, and Buttercup. All of them have been paired up with strange gliders after getting "kicked out" of their respective colonies - four of them with the "wet" method of introduction after other methods failed. After having used hydrotherapy for medical reasons so successfully, under doctors' orders for so many times - it does not even occur to me that getting a glider wet is "abusive." So now, there are four legit reasons to get them wet so far as I am concerned. virtual_diver Face Hugger USA 574 Posts First of all let me expain, I am not stupid, I am not cruel. Desperate would be a good word for what I am. Second, I have 2 large cages & plenty of room to house these gliders. My concern is for the gliders. They are alone!!! I have tried multiple times to intro them using various techniques, pouch swapping, cage swapping, scent masking to no avail. I knew it would take drastic measures to get these 2 together. This was not a "quick fix" method. Overall it took over 5 hours of nerve wracking work and many more hours of worry. Bloody fingers were also involved. I'm sure if this had worked, I would be singing the phrasing of this method. It didn't work & that may be my fault as well. I just couldn't take it any more. I didn't just turn the shower full blast on them either. They were getting "misted" with shower very low & bouncing off the wall. Do I recommend this to "newbies", NO! This is a drastic, everything else has failed method. I took every precaution to keep the girls warm and to get them dry as quickly as I could. WintersSong Fuzzy Wuzzy 1417 Posts Admittedly, I am still working on reading the comments on this thread, but.. I've a question. Assume that it wasn't Kazko who came up with this method. Assume that Ed had not come out in support of the method. Assume, instead, that a newcomer to the board came out and said: hey guys, what do you think of this method of introductions? Would you all be singing praises then? I've a theory that many will support this method simply because of who suggested it, and who supports it already -- rather than because of the method itself. Now, another assumption.. Assume that it was Pocket Pets that came out with this method, what would your feelings be then? I've a feeling many would've screamed abuse. These are all hypothetical assumptions, of course, but play along with me. My own opinion is, it's abuse no matter who does it, and I cannot support anyone who does it. hpyhwn2003 Glider HI, USA 87 Posts Hydrotherapy is used "under orders from our vet" Was anyone who tried/used this method under orders from their vet? Was the method used for any immediate medical concern that was endangering the glider's life? delilah778 Joey 34 Posts Animal abuse! And the same members (KuroNeko) who cry that gliders are like children in one post state in this one that it's irrelevant to compare this method to children. Scream outrage at the YouTube video with the vet showing how to stick your thumb in a gliders mouth for a FULL 5 minutes to prevent biting and then say it's okay to drench your glider, put in a small cage with no pouch or means to hide or get warm and then shine bright lights on the cage? Come ON!! It's abuse, justify it however you want! Binkys mom Face Hugger AL, USA 779 Posts quote:
Originally posted by WintersSong
quote:
Originally posted by Binkys mom
[quote]
did you read the whole method that kazko posted? you do not SOAK them. you can't just jump on a post when you don't know the whole story. this is a LAST RESORT method. sometimes, it works somethimes it doesn't. i think a lonely, depressed, self-mutilating glider is abuse. when you knowingly keep a colony animal alone is abuse. if you don't know the WHOLE story keep your 2 cents out of it.
Taken directly from Kazko's blog post, again,:
"They do need to be absolutely soaking wet."
...
So, YES, you DO soak them using this method.
winter,i read kazko's method at 3 in the morning last night and was cross-eyed and sleepy. i just get upset when newbies come on here thinking they know more than kazko, kyro, luckyglider,and so forth. i don't proclaim to know everything, i've only had my guys for 2 years. i use the advise that the more experienced gliders owners give me and my gliders are happier and healthier because of them. Other than the water, the mouthwash, and the general abusiveness of it all, the part that really caught me was this: quote:
Immediately put them under a lamp and keep them like this in the tiny cage overnight to force them to stay in pouch. Skip this one night feeding to avoid introducing any food fussing issues and to also simply keep them in pouch socializing and normalizing scents.
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts Guys, all I can say is after you have dealt with the misery and sadness associated with lone gliders who over-groom, get depressed and self mutilate, you're up for about anything to get them with another glider. My position is it's abusive for them to be alone. But maybe my perspective is extreme or strange because we have dealt with so many sick gliders - some of which have over-groomed and almost killed themselves from the depression and stress associated with being alone. We've seen them take all the fur off of their heads and backs, opening themselves up to disease and picking - and we have seen them chew off their own tails. So granted, our PERSPECTIVE is decidedly extreme. Look these animals were not meant to be alone. They are colony animals. If it were'nt for all the greedy lying mill breeders who foist these animals off on people single just to make a sale - we wouldn't be having this conversation. If a few hours of discomfort buys them a lifetime of being happier, not being sad or self-mutilating, it's worth it. It's a moral judgment call I am completely OK with making. Our favorite vet, Dr. Kolmstetter says (I am paraphrasing): "You have to weigh the good and the bad. If an animal starts to stress out or self-mutilate from being alone, go ahead and put them with the other animals - even before quarantine is over. We can fix a bug they may contract, but we can't fix them chewing their tail off or over-grooming so much they get an abscess." My attitude is similar. you have to weigh the stress level and problem they are currently dealing with and then decide if the "cure" is less bad than what they are dealing with. We all have to deal with the conflict of moral imperatives, and weigh the facts between "right" and "wrong." I can tell you that after having to get gliders wet for medical reasons so many times, our observation is that it's really not that big of a deal. I don't advocate using a shower. I advocate holding them and rubbing the water in by hand because I think it's more gentle. I should qualify my comment on the mouthwash. you can use non-alcholic, no-burn mouthwash. It just helps to mask their scent initially. After they groom each other and dry off, their scents co-mingle. So anyway after having dealt with bitten off tails, depression, and gaping wounds from self-mutilation and overgrooming - I am all for this method if it means getting a single glider a cage mate and a happy life. That's not abuse. Leaving them to languish alone and sad is abuse. You have to weigh the good and the bad for each situation. It ain't as black and white as people are making it out to be.
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i used this method and it worked for me anas a matter of fact the videos in the video archives are mine i done them so people would get a general idea of how to do it instead of lookin at pics and befor you ask no i didnt keep them under water for a hour i really just got them wet then let the water run. yea i admit it looked sad especially when one of my girls just sat and looked at me but they are all happy now and my big 7 foot cage and ima tell you it was worth it. and like many have stated this is more of a last resort method and i dont see anything wrong with it unless u sitting there with the water full blasted on them for an hour, with that being said everybody should quit crying about it now if you want to see real animal abuse go on peta's channel on youtube now that will make you cry