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"You have to weigh the good and the bad. If an animal starts to stress out or self-mutilate from being alone, go ahead and put them with the other animals - even before quarantine is over. We can fix a bug they may contract, but we can't fix them chewing their tail off or over-grooming so much they get an abscess." My attitude is similar. you have to weigh the stress level and problem they are currently dealing with and then decide if the "cure" is less bad than what they are dealing with.
I do understand what you're saying. And I understand why that's true. Honestly, I get it. I want to like it. It seems like a fix-all. But there's too much that I just can't wrap my head around. 1) Gliders, while they are from the rain forest, aren't meant to be soaked. Their fur is water resistent. They aren't supposed to be wet. Yes, Vets can recommend hydrotherapy - but first, that was a Vets idea, and secondly, they get wet for what, a few minutes? And then you dry them off, warm them up, and move on. You don't completely soak them for an hour. You don't leave them cold and wet. 2) Starve them for a night? After all they've been through? This is supposed to be a better home for them, not a worse one. We're supposed to be doing things for the good of the glider, not for the convenience of our cage count. If they don't get along, they don't get along. We shouldn't force them together, that's cruel. And not every single glider mutilates by themself - yes, when they do, I'm sure it is awful. But if they haven't shown any tendency to SM, and you give them awesome amounts of attention, I don't see why you can't wait the extra weeks or two to do the slow intros. 3) This makes them bond over fear, not trust, and I really feel like it will make them fear people, as well. 4) Newbies that don't feel like waiting. They already don't quarantine. What's to keep them from not trying legit intros before shoving gliders in a shower? And whats to keep them from doing it the wrong way? 5) The fact that I really feel, if it hadn't been the head honcho telling everyone about this, NO ONE would support it. TINY LITTLE ANGELS Super Glider   USA 318 Posts quote:
Originally posted by xoerikae
quote:
"You have to weigh the good and the bad. If an animal starts to stress out or self-mutilate from being alone, go ahead and put them with the other animals - even before quarantine is over. We can fix a bug they may contract, but we can't fix them chewing their tail off or over-grooming so much they get an abscess." My attitude is similar. you have to weigh the stress level and problem they are currently dealing with and then decide if the "cure" is less bad than what they are dealing with.
I do understand what you're saying. And I understand why that's true. Honestly, I get it. I want to like it. It seems like a fix-all. But there's too much that I just can't wrap my head around.
1) Gliders, while they are from the rain forest, aren't meant to be soaked. Their fur is water resistent. They aren't supposed to be wet. Yes, Vets can recommend hydrotherapy - but first, that was a Vets idea, and secondly, they get wet for what, a few minutes? And then you dry them off, warm them up, and move on. You don't completely soak them for an hour. You don't leave them cold and wet.
2) Starve them for a night? After all they've been through? This is supposed to be a better home for them, not a worse one. We're supposed to be doing things for the good of the glider, not for the convenience of our cage count. If they don't get along, they don't get along. We shouldn't force them together, that's cruel. And not every single glider mutilates by themself - yes, when they do, I'm sure it is awful. But if they haven't shown any tendency to SM, and you give them awesome amounts of attention, I don't see why you can't wait the extra weeks or two to do the slow intros.
3) This makes them bond over fear, not trust, and I really feel like it will make them fear people, as well.
4) Newbies that don't feel like waiting. They already don't quarantine. What's to keep them from not trying legit intros before shoving gliders in a shower? And whats to keep them from doing it the wrong way?
5) The fact that I really feel, if it hadn't been the head honcho telling everyone about this, NO ONE would support it.
I dont see the need in any of us fighting calling names and cursing! It's going to get us no where! Everyone has their own opinion! This method truely is cruel! There are millions of way's to intro and believe me TRY and you will find another way without starving terrifying or soaking them! This is a terrible thing especially for new owners to try! This should never be a recommended bonding technique! Why make the fear you? Why let them go hungry? I dont see this method making them happy you are forcing them to be with a cage mate they may truely not be happy with...I agree they should be in pairs but doing this is dangerous "let's just force them in there so they can kill each other while im sleeping" is what I feel like this technique say's! LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts   TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by xoerikae
quote:
"You have to weigh the good and the bad. If an animal starts to stress out or self-mutilate from being alone, go ahead and put them with the other animals - even before quarantine is over. We can fix a bug they may contract, but we can't fix them chewing their tail off or over-grooming so much they get an abscess." My attitude is similar. you have to weigh the stress level and problem they are currently dealing with and then decide if the "cure" is less bad than what they are dealing with.
I do understand what you're saying. And I understand why that's true. Honestly, I get it. I want to like it. It seems like a fix-all. But there's too much that I just can't wrap my head around.
1) Gliders, while they are from the rain forest, aren't meant to be soaked. Their fur is water resistent. They aren't supposed to be wet. Yes, Vets can recommend hydrotherapy - but first, that was a Vets idea, and secondly, they get wet for what, a few minutes? And then you dry them off, warm them up, and move on. You don't completely soak them for an hour. You don't leave them cold and wet.
2) Starve them for a night? After all they've been through? This is supposed to be a better home for them, not a worse one. We're supposed to be doing things for the good of the glider, not for the convenience of our cage count. If they don't get along, they don't get along. We shouldn't force them together, that's cruel. And not every single glider mutilates by themself - yes, when they do, I'm sure it is awful. But if they haven't shown any tendency to SM, and you give them awesome amounts of attention, I don't see why you can't wait the extra weeks or two to do the slow intros.
3) This makes them bond over fear, not trust, and I really feel like it will make them fear people, as well.
4) Newbies that don't feel like waiting. They already don't quarantine. What's to keep them from not trying legit intros before shoving gliders in a shower? And whats to keep them from doing it the wrong way?
5) The fact that I really feel, if it hadn't been the head honcho telling everyone about this, NO ONE would support it.
you make some very intelligent points. A few comments... 1. I don't know really what they were meant or not meant to get wet in the rain forest, but they undoubtedly do. I mean it's a rain forest, not a plain old forest. Over the years I can tell you I wish they had stayed there and human beings never intervened. Us humans mess up so much when it comes to animals. Hydrotherapy is not a single vet's idea. It is a common and best practice amongst many vets. We have had no less than four vets prescribe it over the years. yes, depending on the wound, you can dry them off right away, but some wounds are big and it's better to just let them snuggle in some fleece and dry themselves off on occasion. 2. I would not characterize not feeding them until the morning as starving them. Clearly if the glider is malnourished or has some severe nutrition problem you should fatten them up before trying this. But delaying their food for 12 hours is not starving them. Just feed them in the morning. Regarding "waiting the extra weeks" to do "proper" introductions, hey we've done all that. We did that with both Clyde and Ginger for example and guess what? It didn't work. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. We'd know. We've probably done more "proper" introductions than most people in this community will ever dream of. With dozens upon dozens of gliders. Once you have the experience and have actually done all this with a hundred or so gliders, your mind becomes much more open to trying something new. 3. When gliders are introduced they bond or fight depending on scent, dominance and who's acting afraid or tentative. When they are wet, the scent is masked, the dominance gives way to mutual cooperation, and they huddle together. So the so-called wet method is about *removing* barriers that are actually natural barriers having to do with scent and dominance. Now I'll tell you what fear is. Fear is a dominant glider biting down on a submissive glider and throwing that glider into shock. Or a bite penetrating their nose or eye. That's fear. But if this method keeps that from happening, that's a good thing. 4. You are correct that a lot of people are impatient, newbie or not. What's to keep people from doing something wrong? Nothing. They do wrong things all the time. I pray however, that they have the presence of mind to listen, research and learn before trying anything. You know, all the years I have tried the "nest swapping / cage swapping" method, it still results sometimes in gliders fighting. So who's to say that's the best method? only time will tell. It takes time to try new things and discover what is worth doing and what is not. And it takes judgment to post things that you think with "hurt" an animal. If we had and evidence or made any observations that this method "hurt" animals, we wouldn't use it. It sounds weird, but I know from experience and rehabilitation procedures (hydrotherapy) that water DOES NOT HURT a glider. Of course they can't swim so I am not saying to dunk them are try to let them swim. But getting them wet does not hurt them. It just plain doesn't. 5. Maybe, maybe not about the "head honcho" comment. I guess you are talking about Kazko? Anyway, in this day of sentiment broadcast, FaceBook, Blogs, etc. we are all empowered and we all "publish." I guess until you do all of the research and have tried all the methods and have any experience with all of the methods, you just would not know what works and what doesn't. So you (everyone pretty much) counts on what people say. That does not make people who post the most right all of the time. Lord knows I make mistakes all of the time. Clearly this is a polarizing thing this wet thing. You have people in this thread like thefotocat who runs rescue who thinks it's a bad idea and who would never even adopt out to people who are thinking of trying it. And then you have me, who also runs a rescue, who thinks the method can be a Godsend depending on the situation. So there you go. We all have different ideas of right and wrong. I cannot tell you how absolutely joyous I am with the outcome of the four singles this past two weeks that are now two couples. They are more active, more engaging and doing better than when they were all alone. And they will be easier to adopt out as pairs. So to me, this *is* about what's good for the glider in the long run. A few hours of discomfort is so much less important than a lifetime of happier days. I have to make decisions like this all the time to give these animals a better quality of life. It's not such a hard decision. quote:
you make some very intelligent points. A few comments...
1. I don't know really what they were meant or not meant to get wet in the rain forest, but they undoubtedly do. I mean it's a rain forest, not a plain old forest. Over the years I can tell you I wish they had stayed there and human beings never intervened. Us humans mess up so much when it comes to animals. Hydrotherapy is not a single vet's idea. It is a common and best practice amongst many vets. We have had no less than four vets prescribe it over the years. yes, depending on the wound, you can dry them off right away, but some wounds are big and it's better to just let them snuggle in some fleece and dry themselves off on occasion.
2. I would not characterize not feeding them until the morning as starving them. Clearly if the glider is malnourished or has some severe nutrition problem you should fatten them up before trying this. But delaying their food for 12 hours is not starving them. Just feed them in the morning.
Regarding "waiting the extra weeks" to do "proper" introductions, hey we've done all that. We did that with both Clyde and Ginger for example and guess what? It didn't work. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. We'd know. We've probably done more "proper" introductions than most people in this community will ever dream of. With dozens upon dozens of gliders. Once you have the experience and have actually done all this with a hundred or so gliders, your mind becomes much more open to trying something new.
3. When gliders are introduced they bond or fight depending on scent, dominance and who's acting afraid or tentative. When they are wet, the scent is masked, the dominance gives way to mutual cooperation, and they huddle together. So the so-called wet method is about *removing* barriers that are actually natural barriers having to do with scent and dominance. Now I'll tell you what fear is. Fear is a dominant glider biting down on a submissive glider and throwing that glider into shock. Or a bite penetrating their nose or eye. That's fear. But if this method keeps that from happening, that's a good thing.
4. You are correct that a lot of people are impatient, newbie or not. What's to keep people from doing something wrong? Nothing. They do wrong things all the time. I pray however, that they have the presence of mind to listen, research and learn before trying anything. You know, all the years I have tried the "nest swapping / cage swapping" method, it still results sometimes in gliders fighting. So who's to say that's the best method? only time will tell. It takes time to try new things and discover what is worth doing and what is not. And it takes judgment to post things that you think with "hurt" an animal. If we had and evidence or made any observations that this method "hurt" animals, we wouldn't use it. It sounds weird, but I know from experience and rehabilitation procedures (hydrotherapy) that water DOES NOT HURT a glider. Of course they can't swim so I am not saying to dunk them are try to let them swim. But getting them wet does not hurt them. It just plain doesn't.
5. Maybe, maybe not about the "head honcho" comment. I guess you are talking about Kazko? Anyway, in this day of sentiment broadcast, FaceBook, Blogs, etc. we are all empowered and we all "publish." I guess until you do all of the research and have tried all the methods and have any experience with all of the methods, you just would not know what works and what doesn't. So you (everyone pretty much) counts on what people say. That does not make people who post the most right all of the time. Lord knows I make mistakes all of the time.
Clearly this is a polarizing thing this wet thing. You have people in this thread like thefotocat who runs rescue who thinks it's a bad idea and who would never even adopt out to people who are thinking of trying it. And then you have me, who also runs a rescue, who thinks the method can be a Godsend depending on the situation. So there you go. We all have different ideas of right and wrong.
I cannot tell you how absolutely joyous I am with the outcome of the four singles this past two weeks that are now two couples. They are more active, more engaging and doing better than when they were all alone. And they will be easier to adopt out as pairs.
So to me, this *is* about what's good for the glider in the long run. A few hours of discomfort is so much less important than a lifetime of happier days. I have to make decisions like this all the time to give these animals a better quality of life. It's not such a hard decision.
I'm flattered :) 1) I wasn't saying it was just one vet - my point was that this form of intros has, presumably, not be vet-approved, vet-prescribed, or maybe even run by a vet at all. And yes, I'm sure they do get wet in the rain forest. But in the rain forest, they also have the option of immediately getting out of the water and getting dry - that's the benefit of living in the trees, what with the large leaves and the big holes in the trunks. My point is, in most other situations, they aren't submitted to being wet for a long amount of time, nor are they denied somewhere to hide. Plus, there's the whole situation of how have they changed since they've been domesticated. Has their ability to handle water changed? I'm sure they could deal with a bit of warm water. But being soaked, beyond what their fur is supposed to repel, just seems... cruel. Maybe, as we originally thought, a "light mist", or the vanilla for scent or something to distract. I understand where this is going, but I really feel that there is middle ground to be explored instead. This option, personally, I would never use or recommend. However, I understand the theory and maybe, in most drastic cases, there is something to be said about the idea of distracting. We've done it before, with the bathtub method and vanilla or whatever. I see what you're saying. But soaking them just really, to me, feels like abuse. But that is me, with my two going on seven gliders, and not you with your hundreds. This is my decision and that is yours. I will respect you no less, but I will say that I don't agree with it. 2) The way I read the direction said skip that feeding. I understood it as not feeding them again until the next night. I also read that some caved and fed in the morning, as the felt bad, but, as I read it, the original plan is to feed them one night, intro them the next and skip feeding, and then resume your regular schedule - and feed them the next night. 48 hours with no food is cruel. 3) Like I said, I get that it's tough. But sometimes gliders aren't ging to accept each other, and we should accept that. We shouldn't force it. quote:
I too work with rescue gliders. Have I also come accross gliders who are so depressed by being alone that they hurt themselves? Yes. Have some of these same gliders for whatever reason decided that they didn't like some of the would be cagemates I had in mind? Yes. Tho I don't use or condone this wet method because I have found that with time I come accross another glider that most of these gliders will accept without this kind of method being used. Did I still end up with lone gliders? Sadly yes. But I will not use this method to force them to take in another glider. If that means that I'm gonna have to give them more time and attention then so be it I will even if that means I'm gonna have to sit holding a glider in my hands for hours just so they won't hurt themselves. If I'm not willing to do this then I shouldn't be taking in the animals in the first place.
4) Our current method may very well not be the best. But I don't feel that this is the next best thing, either. Might it cause someone to think of what will be the next best thing? Maybe. But I don't think this is what we should be supporting. 5) I just feel that, if I had posted a topic going HEY LOOK DOOD, MY GLIDERS ARE ALL BONDED AND STUFF COS I SHOVED THEM IN A SHOWER everyone would've hated me. I would've been put in front of the firing squad. But since it was Kazko, it's a totally different story. Why should it matter who brings it to light? I'm glad it worked out for your gliders, I really am. It's great that they seem to be getting along well. But like I said, I don't condone this method and I most likely never will. But maybe, MAYBE, someone's gotten onto something with the idea that there is something bigger and better coming our way. But I still don't feel that this is it. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by hpyhwn2003
quote:
Originally posted by hpyhwn2003
Hydrotherapy is used "under orders from our vet"
Was anyone who tried/used this method under orders from their vet? Was the method used for any immediate medical concern that was endangering the glider's life?
I too work with rescue gliders. Have I also come accross gliders who are so depressed by being alone that they hurt themselves? Yes. Have some of these same gliders for whatever reason decided that they didn't like some of the would be cagemates I had in mind? Yes. Tho I don't use or condone this wet method because I have found that with time I come accross another glider that most of these gliders will accept without this kind of method being used. Did I still end up with lone gliders? Sadly yes. But I will not use this method to force them to take in another glider. If that means that I'm gonna have to give them more time and attention then so be it I will even if that means I'm gonna have to sit holding a glider in my hands for hours just so they won't hurt themselves. If I'm not willing to do this then I shouldn't be taking in the animals in the first place.
Aww c'mon, me and my wife spend plenty of hours holding, rehabilitating, and spoiling gliders - both our own and the rescues. Ditto other rescue animals including donkeys. So you think if a rescuer uses the wet method, after exhausting other methods, to put four singles together means he or she shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" And that unless you are willing to "give them more time" you shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" I guess that depends on how many animals you actually take in and then place out and the general health and happiness of the animals. Of course anything a legit rescue does is for the benefit of the animals. We have spent countless hours staying up and standing vigil over just-introduced gliders to ensure they are safe. That's "giving them more time and attention" just like we do when they are not being introduced. Singles always get more attention than the ones in colonies exactly because they need it. But really, the idea that we should not have animals in the first place just because we got them wet to join them is uncharitable. We have tried so many methods. We are open minded to learning and trying new things. Now, you can find Clyde and Ginger on Petfinder. That means they are up for adoption as a pair instead of wasting away single and alone. How is that bad that they are now, as a couple, more appealing to a prospective adopter. They would not be on Petfinder as a single, because the responsibility of introducing gliders is a big one best left to people who have done a lot of it. As for Darla and Dizzy... Darla is one of our pets and Dizzy is in sanctuary based on an agreement with one of our non-profit patrons. So those two are not going on Petfinders. I raised Darla from a joey and I love her very much. I could not stand to see her being alone after her colony of four years wounded her and kicked her out. For weeks I have been holding her and reassuring her that I'd find her a new cagemate. Now I've kept my promise to her. And I spent PLENTY of extra time with her in the interim. OK, so I am saying this issue is not black and white. I don't think it is. For me breeding is wrong. That's black and white. For me shipping these critters is wrong. That's black and white. But getting them wet to introduce them when other methods fail - and I've tried them all - is not so black and white. I can deal with other humans not liking this. I care more about the gliders' welfare. KneeLee Super Glider USA 333 Posts If I had the power I would STOP this mindless bickering by blocking this post. "Oh, it's animal abuse." "Oh, I'm right you're wrong" I insist that we should all put on our big-girl/ big-boy pants&& stop this stupid fighting. Over opinions! I think this has gone on far enough.
1989jeremy Super Glider USA 352 Posts quote:
Aww c'mon, me and my wife spend plenty of hours holding, rehabilitating, and spoiling gliders - both our own and the rescues. Ditto other rescue animals including donkeys. So you think if a rescuer uses the wet method, after exhausting other methods, to put four singles together means he or she shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" And that unless you are willing to "give them more time" you shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" I guess that depends on how many animals you actually take in and then place out and the general health and happiness of the animals.
Of course anything a legit rescue does is for the benefit of the animals. We have spent countless hours staying up and standing vigil over just-introduced gliders to ensure they are safe. That's "giving them more time and attention" just like we do when they are not being introduced. Singles always get more attention than the ones in colonies exactly because they need it. But really, the idea that we should not have animals in the first place just because we got them wet to join them is uncharitable. We have tried so many methods. We are open minded to learning and trying new things.
honestly, that terrifies me. i want to run an animal rescue one day. and i don't want people hating on me for my choices. i can see both sides. sometimes it sucks to see the best in people, you know? i wish i could take one side or another. but i can't. stupid conscience. also, i think this topic has gone in a much more productive direction than it was earlier on. quote:
This is clearly an emotional topic but that does not make it radioactive. If all we did was stick our collective tails under our legs and ran away every time their was a difference of opinion, we'd be... Ostriches.
Only if you're head is in the sand at the same time! But I totally agree, this is a logically sound and not awful name-calling topic. It's actually a bit productive. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by xoerikae
quote:
Aww c'mon, me and my wife spend plenty of hours holding, rehabilitating, and spoiling gliders - both our own and the rescues. Ditto other rescue animals including donkeys. So you think if a rescuer uses the wet method, after exhausting other methods, to put four singles together means he or she shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" And that unless you are willing to "give them more time" you shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" I guess that depends on how many animals you actually take in and then place out and the general health and happiness of the animals.
Of course anything a legit rescue does is for the benefit of the animals. We have spent countless hours staying up and standing vigil over just-introduced gliders to ensure they are safe. That's "giving them more time and attention" just like we do when they are not being introduced. Singles always get more attention than the ones in colonies exactly because they need it. But really, the idea that we should not have animals in the first place just because we got them wet to join them is uncharitable. We have tried so many methods. We are open minded to learning and trying new things.
honestly, that terrifies me. i want to run an animal rescue one day. and i don't want people hating on me for my choices.
i can see both sides. sometimes it sucks to see the best in people, you know? i wish i could take one side or another. but i can't. stupid conscience.
Oh please don't be afraid. Animal rescue is of course great for the animals and it is very rewarding for us humans too. If you have any reservations, please feel free to call us. you are also free to come by and visit and you can even do some light volunteer work to see if it's something you want to do more of. But the fact that people who do rescue have differing opinions - or that people will agree or disagree with you on things - that just comes with the territory. you get used to being "second guessed." It's OK. You don't have to take sides. Just soak it in and eventually you will form an opinion. And that opinion should not stop you from saving animals in need. Feel free to contact us if you want to know more about what's involved. thanks :) once im done with school, start a fam and they can take care of themselves for the most part, ill be trying my hardest to run an animal rescue. its good to know its rewarding, despite all the crap i'm sure you put up with :P in all honesty, the view ive taken on for this is my view for most things: if you don't like it, don't do it. i don't like it - i really dont like it - and i won't do it. but will i take out a death threat on everyone who does? nah. no need in that. is me yelling at you going to make you change you're mind? probably not. the only thing, unfortunately, thats going to do that is if something bad happens.
Some photos from our members ok. i think, at this point, most of us have agreed to disagree, yes? we can all be grownups? awesome. cos we're all here for the same reason. even if we dont agree. if we can have a civil conversation, we're more likely to get somewhere than if we are yelling about it quote:
Oh it is so worth it. Sometimes bad things happen. Like when they die. I cry the whole time I am burying them and sometimes for a day or two afterward. My wife doesn't tease me about the crying so I am grateful for that. We love these little critters so much. They are so innocent and so helpless. We love to care for them and love more to find homes for them.
We work also with Best Friends Animal Society. They are the ones who took on Michael Vick's pit bulls. We are working with them to transfer some farm animals from a big Montana rescue that just failed. We helped them recently with an article on sugar gliders that's going into their magazine. We have also worked with them on their "Read to the Animals" program with local schools. Great organization. There are plenty of rescue organizations, animal societies and individuals out there who will help you to learn more about saving animals when you are ready. Call us any time.
oh i would too. i'm not looking forward to losing anyone, but i know it will happen. thanks for the help... but thats like fifteen, twenty years away for me :P quote:
We love these little critters so much. They are so innocent and so helpless. We love to care for them and love more to find homes for them.
And this is why I can't yell. hpyhwn2003 Glider HI, USA 87 Posts quote:
Originally posted by LuckyGlider
quote:
Originally posted by hpyhwn2003
quote:
Originally posted by hpyhwn2003
Hydrotherapy is used "under orders from our vet"
Was anyone who tried/used this method under orders from their vet? Was the method used for any immediate medical concern that was endangering the glider's life?
I too work with rescue gliders. Have I also come accross gliders who are so depressed by being alone that they hurt themselves? Yes. Have some of these same gliders for whatever reason decided that they didn't like some of the would be cagemates I had in mind? Yes. Tho I don't use or condone this wet method because I have found that with time I come accross another glider that most of these gliders will accept without this kind of method being used. Did I still end up with lone gliders? Sadly yes. But I will not use this method to force them to take in another glider. If that means that I'm gonna have to give them more time and attention then so be it I will even if that means I'm gonna have to sit holding a glider in my hands for hours just so they won't hurt themselves. If I'm not willing to do this then I shouldn't be taking in the animals in the first place.
Aww c'mon, me and my wife spend plenty of hours holding, rehabilitating, and spoiling gliders - both our own and the rescues. Ditto other rescue animals including donkeys. So you think if a rescuer uses the wet method, after exhausting other methods, to put four singles together means he or she shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" And that unless you are willing to "give them more time" you shouldn't "be taking them in the first place?" I guess that depends on how many animals you actually take in and then place out and the general health and happiness of the animals.
Of course anything a legit rescue does is for the benefit of the animals. We have spent countless hours staying up and standing vigil over just-introduced gliders to ensure they are safe. That's "giving them more time and attention" just like we do when they are not being introduced. Singles always get more attention than the ones in colonies exactly because they need it. But really, the idea that we should not have animals in the first place just because we got them wet to join them is uncharitable. We have tried so many methods. We are open minded to learning and trying new things.
Now, you can find Clyde and Ginger on Petfinder. That means they are up for adoption as a pair instead of wasting away single and alone. How is that bad that they are now, as a couple, more appealing to a prospective adopter. They would not be on Petfinder as a single, because the responsibility of introducing gliders is a big one best left to people who have done a lot of it.
I'm not saying you and your wife shouldn't own gliders I'm saying if "I" can't spend the time with the glider that the glider needs then "I" shouldn't be taking them in. Look let's be honest as rescues and rehaders we use methods working with gliders that we don't post about and the reason we don't is we know that some newbie may well come along and decide they know enough to do the same thing to their gliders. You stated earlier that we can't stop these people from doing that and you're right we can't once we've posted about it. That's also where I disagree too because we can stop it by not posting about the method in the first place at least until the method had been determined to actually work without any long term side effects physically or mentally to the gliders. Who determines if new methods work, are safe, and humane? Well I'd hope that it would be those will LOTS of experience, but notice I said those not someone as in one rescue. Look I respect that you've worked heard over the years to help gliders. I also understand to do that you are trying new things. All I'm asking is if the results ALWAYS justify the means? My heart and soul cry out in such a way that I can't condone this method. Should I not listen to it when it is the very reason I work so hard with rescues and educating new owners in the first place? With this I do agree Rescue homes are all different and use different methods to work with the animals they come into contact with. I also agree that the gliders we deal with are all individuals with their own issues. What I don't agree with is promoting a glider to glider bonding method that can be so harmful to gliders in the long run and we've no proof that it isn't. I also don't agree with promoting a method that isn't supported by a vet. I've ask 3 times now if anyone was under vet orders and no one has replied to that question. So now I'll ask another Has anyone who used this method even taken the time to ask a vet if there could be any foreseeable long term medical isssues, physically or mentally, for the gliders undergoing this bonding method? Snoopy86406 Glider AZ, USA 116 Posts What planet are we living on that you think this is going to help gliders. These are not domesticated animals folks. They have only been kept as pets less than 20 years. They are still wild animals with wild ways. Think of the psychological damage being inflicted on them. Gliders DO NOT forget who was cruel to them. They have a very good memory for this kind of thing. With adult gliders, some will accept some, and other will not. You cannot force them to like each other. Not to mention all the health risks you are posing by getting them all wet. If they get a chill, they will get sick. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Bet you didn't think of that one. Think of some more constructive things to do with your time, and not be inhumane to your gliders. Talking to you from the 21st Century............... Danielle G. USDA Breeder hpyhwn2003 Glider HI, USA 87 Posts quote:
Originally posted by TINY LITTLE ANGELS
I think of course in the position (wet torture method) they were put in theY accept one another out of fear and nothing else! They will not truely be happy but in fear that if they dont atleast pretend to like one another they will be tortured again! SAD
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I think of course in the position (wet torture method) they were put in theY accept one another out of fear and nothing else! They will not truely be happy but in fear that if they dont atleast pretend to like one another they will be tortured again! SAD