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mel2mdl Face Hugger   407 Posts 1. Colors change: Not true colors. Sure, some UNETHICAL people sell gliders as colors when it is just staining, but they also sell inbred greys and abused animals who are just scared and say they are tame. I, for one, wouldn't buy from a mill - just small hobby breeders, if I wanted to pay for a glider. 2. Promotes inbreeding: Gliders promote inbreeding from UNETHICAL breeders. I don't think colors have much to with that. In fact, I think it is just the opposite. If I am only paying a $100 for a Phantom grey, am I gonna be too picky about the lineage? Nope, probably not. But, if I am paying $2500 for a leu - darn straight I am going to check the lineage! Many people here breed gliders they know nothing about. "I just got two gliders from a pet show - a boy and girl. How soon before they have babies?" Do you think Mike Mcgrath knows the parents of his phantom greys? Nope - but he could give the lineage of his mosiacs and leus! Would I buy a color from him? No, nor would I buy a phantom grey from him! 3. An added fad to an already fad animal: Until people stop paying for gliders from mills, this will always be the case. But - colors don't increase this, IMO. Most people don't buy an expensive glider on impulse - they get a Phantom grey for cheap! Puppy mills are horrible, yet how many of you know someone who has gotten a dog from a pet store, small breeder, etc. without knowing they are mill dogs? They don't get rare breeds, like Hovaworths, they get common breeds, like maltese or cocker-poos. Gliders are the same. Education is the only way to help - not just not buying colors, but not buying ANY gliders from mill breeders. (Truthfully, if you have over 50 breeding pairs, I won't buy from you regardless of how cute or healthy they are. If I am going to pay for a glider, I want a sweet one and I don't see how you can hand tame over 100 gliders/babies at a time. Nor will I buy from someone who won't let me see their set-up. I might not look at it, but I want the right to see it!) A better argument might be that WFB and other colors are showing up in rescues now. (I was even offered a free mosiac in the wake of my tragedy, but wanted a nicer, younger glider.) (Of course, he was not a rescue, just an incredibly kind offer!) I don't think colors, per say, are wrong or mutants or deformed or whatever - but rehoming/rescueing is the way to go. And colors do show up in the wild, but animals are very unforgiving of variations - wolfs will ban or kill solid colored males and the females usually are the lowest. Natural selection takes care of the rest. Of my 5 babies (all phantom grey gliders) I recently lost, I paid only for the first two - the others were rescues or free. I now have two wonderful rescues (okay - not so wonderful, they bite - but not hard!) from Dancing and, I assume, all4gliders - though maybe they were just Dancing - I dunno - that I opened my heart to. I am paying for one more - not for the color, since I'm not paying extra, but because I want a sweet, hand-tamed baby for once and MelindaKay has one that I fell in love with. My fourth and final glider I am getting is free also, as well as being the only phantom grey glider I am taking at this time - it just hurts too much. (From Pastafarian's rescues who were pregnant when she got them - before the male got snipped! So she won't be bred either!) (In fact, that is why Sampson is the only male I am getting - no poms on him!) As for using the money to rescue or give more homes, that is a false argument for most. For example, Megi has 4 gliders. She has two colored gliders - a leu and, I think, a mosiac. She saved up her money for them, is not breeding them, and bought them because she liked them. But - 4 is her limit. If they were 2 greys, then she would still be at 4. The money would have stayed with her to buy other things she wanted... Four is my limit too. I was offered 18+ gliders in wake of my tragedy. Did I choose the gliders based on color? Heck no - or I would've taken the mosiac who was offered to me by a wonderful person. Would I have taken the rescues from Dancing if they had been phantom grey? I hope so, but really don't know - rescuing is hard work and I cannot even look at pictures of phantom grey gliders without tearing up. So why am I adopting/paying for a glider? Color? Nope - personality - she is a sweetie and I fell in love before my tragedy! Why am I not taking the other phantom grey rescues? 4 is my limit and I only have the patience to deal with 2 biters at a time. Sampson and Sassy are not going anywhere to make more room! (BTW - this really belongs on the discussion forum not in classifieds!) LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts   TX, USA 5266 Posts Thank you for your perspective. It looks like even though you don't agree with all of my 3 reasons, you have some of your own like on the rescues. If you go to the tippy-top you will see my characterization of the "problem breeders" so you and I are not that far off although you use the word "unethical" and I use different words: "wanna-be clueless breeders" and "amoral Dr. Frankensteins" Here, the wanna-be's may be unethical, but perhaps worse than that, they just don't know what the heck they are doing. Not knowing what you are doing certainly can lead to unecessary suffering and death of gliders. The Dr. Frankensteins may have started out as wanna-bes, but they have learned that agressive inbreeding can get them what they seek faster, so they can line their pockets with color premiums faster. So I think although I did not use the word "unethical" I made it pretty clear that I was qualifying my comments. The "watch them change" is not just from pouch staining and unscrupulous breeders though. Two of my pure cinammon babies changed to grey over time. They were not pouch stained. Obviously that does not happen with albinos, but some natural (non-stained) colors can change. Just look at my album with recent photos of Barbie as an adult versus the one with her in the baby hat at 12 weeks OOP. OK, so I bought for color at the beginning with our first pair. But then Gail and I educated ourselves and talked both to breeders and rescuers and found out that we made an ill-informed decision. And so part of the reason this post is here is to help other people to thrash through these issues before they make up their mind. I have also weighed-in on how the problem of mill breeding is a bigger issue and a valid one - one of the earlier replies dealt with that issue. Even though it's not exactly on topic, it is an important issue. In fact, the "code of ethics for breeders" post was a separate post that spun off of this one to give the subject its own spotlight. (take a look at the previous page). As for "fad within a fad" that phenomenon would exist with or without mills. One does not have to be familiar with nor care about the existence of mills to say "Ohh cool, look at that all-white glider - I want one of those because gliders are so cool and an all-white one is even more so." The emotions tied-in to impulse buying are easily coupled to mill breeding and trade show purchases but I don't see the linkage with a $2,000 colored glider. I think I have made it clear that I do not dislike colored gliders. I think they are beautiful. I dislike what some humans do to get the premium. And I dislike the orientation of the supply-side and the premiums demanded. I take your meaning of the saving money for rescues being a false argument for most conversely means it could be a true argument for "some." It is those "some" that I am trying to reach here. There is a reason why this post is here and not the discussion forum. Why is it here? Well, because its impact is compounded because it is exactly and purposefully inappropriate for it to be here. It is here as an "anti-advertisement" which is kinda political for sure. But I reckon if the administrators of this site thought it was bad for it to be here, innappropriate or not, they would have moved it elsewhere or deleted it. I am hoping a handful of people will think twice before buying for color based on my arguments. I think there are some moral issues that are not intuitively obvious to first-time buyers of color so this post is a "mental hijacking" of the classifieds to make a political statement on behalf of gliders who can't speak. Obviously, this being a public forum, opposing views are welcome. Maybe there are more reasons not to buy for color that I have not thought of? Maybe I am dead wrong. But a number of people have already contacted me to say that this post has swayed them and they are re-thinking the matter. I think that's a good thing. That's all I am asking for is people to think it through. And who am I to foist this upon people. No one really. I am putting this out there because the little possums don't know how to write and use a computer. I think if they did a few of them - especially the malformed and cast-offs would be writing this. mel2mdl Face Hugger 407 Posts I'm just going to state, for the record, I see more newbies on here than any other site breeding, which compounds the problems. On other sites, they get slammed by experienced owners. I don't think paying for color is wrong, though. It is a personal choice. Period. I don't think that overall it harms the suggies - UNLESS you buy from unethical people. The hobby breeders (with 2, 3, 4 or 5 breeding pairs) are working and DO NOT make money off their gliders, even colored gliders. (By the time you cover care, feeding, hand-raising, background checks, etc. many lose money.) They do it because they enjoy the babies and it is, oh yeah, a hobby! :~) mel2mdl Face Hugger 407 Posts Well, most 'hobby breeders' are not new. They research it for a long time first. I object to people who are getting their first gliders and want a breeding pair - or those who breed any glider that they don't know the parents for! There is a difference between "hobby" breeding and ignorance! Newbies go into it because they: 1. Don't want to mess with nature. (Guess what - don't have pets, it's not nature!) 2. Want the animal to experience the 'joy' of having babies. (Animals breed due to instinct and having kids is not a joy!) 3. To make money - not that anyone will! 4. They just don't know any better! Hobby breeders screen their buyers before they sell and *might* break even. They research before they start and know what do to. Please don't lump hobby breeders and newbie breeders together. They are two totally different things. :~) Rita Glider Sprinkles  MO, USA 12214 Posts Luluzuki Joey 17 Posts Fireaggate Starting Member 3 Posts WOW.... I have been sitting here reading this thread. I am only about half way through it although the one thing i can see thats obviously easily taken care of is problems with low grade breeders or breeders trying to make a quick buck is the fact that they are able to breed their suggie in the first place. You will run into the same problem no matter what kind of animal you run into be it cats or dogs. The only way to help put a stop to inbreeding is to make sure that as a breeder when you sell your babies that they are already spaded or neutered. Make sure to always inform of how this practice is done to make sure that there is no inbreeding. Also make sure that you interview the prospective buyer on their knowledge of suggies and what to be expected of them as a parent to one. Make sure they are able to give them everything they need. I have only been interested in getting a suggie for about a year now and every time i look up information on them i find out more and more. When you find a prospective buyer for your suggie make sure you give them sites to read up on them. I dont mean forums i mean actual sites that have informative KNOWLEDGE on suggies. That way the prospective parent is dealing more with fact than opinion. It never hurts as a breeder to help a prospective parent have as much knowledge about theor new baby as possible. No one can ever be over informed. ALso think about making a website for the breeders of suggies. That way they go through an application process for the site. kind of like a suggie guild. Where they band together not only to help each other as breeders but with set rules as a breeder to help put a stop to neglect of the suggies and to help put a stop to breeding problems. The more breeders that band together with set ethical rules the less of a chance there is for these suggies to be miss used. Just a few thoughts. goodies Starting Member 1 Posts Ok, lets not talk about the price of babies, or who can afford or who cant and lets talk about being an ethical breeder, If you are worried about people just breeding for color and the money it can bring in, then you (breeder) should spay/ neuter your babies before placing them in their new homes. If you aren't willing to put money into this, then maybe you shouldn't be a breeder. My thought is just because they can breed, doesn't mean they should, and as a breeder it is your responsibility to only let the best be bred and reproduce and the others should be s/n. This will keep the integrity of the suggies and hopefully keep them out of the hand of people just wanting to make money. Female gliders cannot be spayed SugarBlossoms Joey KY, USA 30 Posts White tipped gliders are common in the wild. They are called Ariel gliders. There are many BEW (Black eyed white) gliders in the wild too. They are not SEEN as often as the "regular" gliders because they stay mainly within their own colonies. The old adage 'birds of a feather flock together' holds true for them. Albinos are no different in gliders than any other living species on earth. They are not common and have a "defect" that causes albinoism. The white gliders (BEW) have been line bred and most have been bred out now so that the new joeys we see for sale now are NOT inbred. I wouldn't pay a ton of money for any animal simply because there are so many needing love and homes already just because of it's color though. It's not just suggies, it's many animals that people look for distinct colors in, THAT is what raises the prices. (rarity of course too) I really wanted a mosaic and when I had the chance to buy one, I changed my mind real quick. I could buy bigger "mansions" and TONS of toys for life for my suggies with the price it costs to buy a mosaic. Instead of getting the mosaic, I am getting another car for back up and spoiling our suggie babies even more. :) My first glider is a "classic grey". He's the love of my life. He IS my life. I love all of my suggie babies and have several WFB's and one with another color but love them all the same. They all have distinct personalities and that is the reason I chose them. I also didn't pay high prices for them. (lol) Please please don't call the white gliders rat faced or refer to them as ugly. They cannot help that they were born a certain color any more than you or I. I personally think they are beautiful as I think ALL suggies are no matter the color, personality or "handicap" just the same as I do a human being. SugarBlossoms Joey KY, USA 30 Posts The white gliders on Judie's site are not deformed. They are shown there when they were little. Some babies have to grow into their bodies. They are gorgeous sweet gliders and shaped no different than any other color. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts This post is not about innocent, natural variations in color. It's more about greed and pandering to notions of a preimium that is paid for "cool." If this was victimless I reckon it would not be much of an issue. But it is not victimless and therein lies the problem. Some people choose to be in denial about it and the people profiting from it don't want to hear it. And there are some animal sites (dog, snake, glider) that are so pro-breeder that the mere mention of this REALITY is heresy. Fortunately on sites that are not so pro-breeder, a dose of humanism is tolerated. The irony of breeding, buying and selling for color is that of course all gliders are beautiful. Oh who can demonize the loving eyes of a little teeny weeney albino glider staring up at you from a sexy commercial breeder's page. All very beutiful. Like the devil can take the form of an angel beautiful... Simply put, there is a price to pay for the beauty of a "cool" color that was gotten by selective inbreeding. Anyone who cares to research genetics does not have to research too hard to learn that one of the chief tenants of color breeding is just that... selective inbreeding. That is in more simple terms - going for a purposeful birth defect. ASK the ASPCA, ASk PETA, ASK any well-known and respected animal rights organization and they will tell you all about it. Ask most breeders you are buying from and they have a different story to tell. Hmm. Who should you believe???? It matters not whether you are selectively inbreeding dogs, snakes or sugar gliders. The collateral damage is evidenced by vet post-mortems and countless heartbreaking observations made by rescuers and other animal owners: 1. Shorter lifespans 2. Deformity 3. Enlarged organs (hearts twice the size they should be) 4. Blindness 5. Nervous disorders The dirty little secret that cuts across breeding of ALL species is that it is rare that color breeders "advertise" the failed attempts. Those are destroyed, are hidden away or otherwisse disposed of. They are the collateral damage. That is unfair and inhumane plain and simple. All to pander to a public hungry for a cool color that costs more. The ones we find out about who go blind, start having seizures, die early or die from enlarged organs, are the ones that slip through the cracks and are sold undetected because their maladays are like time bombs that may not show up for a year or more. Gail and I did a "Pet shop and Breeder Rescue Run" this weekend and we talked to area breeders and pet store owners to promote rescue referrals. Some of them had "color variation" pets for sale. A few of them frankly and soberly admitted that the collateral damage I speak of is undeniable. The others just rolled their eyes and changed the subject. Everyone is free to buy what they want and do what they want within the limits of the law. Unfortunately, it is difficult in a free country to legislate morality and force-bred color variations are in that murky zone. newbie Glider USA 72 Posts Lucky, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. However, you make it sound as if all colored gliders have deformities and that paying for a particular color is monstrous because of what may or may not have occurred to get that coloring to occur. There are many many healthy gliders who are of the "premium" colors... that is to say the more rarely occurring colors. I realize we want to discourage unscrupulous breeders, but I think the best way to do that is to encourage people to research both gliders and the source they intend to purchase from before they buy gliders. I don't think it is such a crime (if the buyer can afford it) to pay more for a colored glider if it is more appealing to the buyer and the buyer is well informed. Many colored buyers are well informed as it is such an expensive investment. As to inbreeding, yes it is bad. It can result in deformities. However, inbreeding occurs naturally also. Gliders live close knit colonies, not only in captivity but in their native habitats as well. This leads to some amount of inbreeding. Naturally, since we now have the power to prevent this we should if at all possible. This is why there are so many advocates of neutering. The point about pure bred dogs is a valid one as well... when selective for color breeding is done conscientiously, as many breeders do, then they are not to blame and their animals certainly shouldn't be considered second class. Those who would breed brother to sister intentionally as a means to obtain a rare color faster are inconceivably unscrupulous, and if there were a glider breeders association of some kind, maybe we'd be able to weed them out easier. There isn't. The means to this end just don't exist yet. I guess my bottom line is that there are responsible people who buy for color, and there is really no good reason to stop them. As long as they are responsible about it, IE making sure the breeder does not inbreed or take other ethical luxuries in the name of a quick buck, what right have we to say that what they are doing is wrong? LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts Dear Newbie, I understand your arguments and thank you for your contribution to this post. For the record, I did not say that all colored gliders have deformities. I said a lot of gliders who are bred to GET color have deformities (the ones you never see). And I said a lot of colored gliders carry on birth defects that you may not be aware of until they die early. As you can see, as of now there are 81 replies and over 2,100 reads on this post. I think I can safely say that is because this is not a "cut and dried" issue. It is also probably because in this community, no other sites "allow" this discussion to happen. Just why do you think that is? Could it be because the truth hurts and no one wants to hear it? (that's a rhetorical question not a personal one). If this were an uncomplicated discussion, maybe there would be only 20 reads and 10 replies.... But it's complicated. Ethical considerations - especially regards animals - are a lighting rod for opinion and emotion. My biggest problem with color is the collateral damage. That's my biggest point. Yes, they are pretty. Just like blood diamonds are pretty.
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