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Putting together a diet. . . . . . .
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Putting together a diet. . . . . . .
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Dec 03 2009
09:41:49 PM
Dahlia_2020 Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Dahlia_2020's Photo Album SC, USA 1419 Posts
Or you can use the recipe creation feature here at this site in the nutrition section under the resources section at the top of the webpage ad a way of combining different things and seeing for yourself what ratio you get. This is also where you can find my fruit and veggie recipes that I already posted the links to earlier in this thread.
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Dec 03 2009
10:03:25 PM
Goldwinger Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Goldwinger's Photo Album Goldwinger's Journal VA, USA 1369 Posts
I really like the receipe's that Dahlia has provided for us. It's very valuable information for us glider owners. Thank you!!!

With the ratio list you can put together the receipe's yourself and use the foods listed on it. I agree papaya is a valuable fruit. My gliders love it. I just cut it up and freeze it after it's cleaned. It's like a frozen glider popsicle treat....

Edited by - Goldwinger on Dec 03 2009 10:06:46 PM
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Dec 04 2009
02:16:54 PM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
Greatestgrammie, there is a lot of conflicting information on diet. It gets emotional sometimes because people have a tendency to take sides or go with the popularity of certain diets based on completely human foibles, such as site orientation, posse-making and general ignorance. If you have the time to study the facts, and if you have the time to use the tools available to you on this site, a lot of the conjecture and arguing melts away.

For the benefit of you old-timers, I warn you that some of the content of this reply will be a repeat for some of you so pardon that please on behalf of the newcomers...

First, let me say I love those smoothie recipes that Dahlia_2020 has been so kind to publish. You should consider going to the nutrition section here to use the recipe calculator. We encourage people to use this fine resource. It takes the mystery out of doing calculations for recipes because it adds up all the nutrients and you add and change the amounts of the ingredients. Please try it.

Now to the subject at hand, or at least some of the issues brought up in this post that are relevant....

Good Diets for captive gliders can only approximate what they eat in the wild. Too few of us can actually simulate exactly what they eat in the wild.

Bear in mind that gliders only live about 3 years in the wild, most dying from predators (owls, larger marsupials, snakes, kookaburra, etc.) and some from starvation.

So one may argue, since they only live 3 years in the wild and survive over a dozen years in captivity, who cares what they eat in the wild?

Regardless, if you really want to understand what they actually eat in the wild, there are texts and field studies available that provide a lot of detail. All you have to do is buy the books or borrow them. And in some cases, cruise the internet for university white papers and field reports. We have done all of this in our exhaustive, multi-year research on what to feed gliders. That research has helped us to formulate our own recipe for the rescue operation at LGRS (more on that later), and we did use other diets like HPW in the beginning.

Regarding the establishment of diet fact, one of my favorite resources is "Marsupial Nutrition" by Ian D. Hume. (ISBN 0-521-59555-X Cambridge University Press, 1999). These university-promulgated texts are expensive owing to their obscure and limited distribution, but they contain a lot of detail. The details from this book and others have cleared up for us so many of the misconceptions and rumor that plague the internet on sugar glider diet.

Here is an adaptation of a graph from that book. I have made formatting changes to it to show the seasons:



As you can see, what gliders eat is highly influenced by the seasons. For example, in the summertime, depending on area, gliders may subsist almost entirely on Eucalypt flowers. Field studies cited in Humes' book have been conducted where the scat of gliders has been analyzed to determine the metabolic uptake of pollen granules from flowers. According to the book, more than 60% of the pollen grains are metabolized by gliders - ostensibly because of their enlarged caceums (Gliders' enlarged caceums are apparently effective in breaking down pollen grains gleaned from flowers).

It should be noted that pollen, in the summertime, is a chief source of vegetable protein for gliders. As you can see, less then five percent of their fare is from insect proteins during that time of the year. So the whole idea that gliders only have enough protein and energy to reproduce when insects are available is called to question by these data points. Consider how sap and nectars are the mainstay of a glider's diet during autumn and winter, with no more than 22% of their diet consisting of insects. (Based on the way they behave when you offer them insects, I reckon they enjoy pouncing on insects and eating them more than scraping bark and licking sap).

That brings me to the point about honey and how it approximates saps and nectars in the wild. Eucalypt and Acacia saps are very high in glucose and sucrose and other complex carbs. So is honey. But make no mistake about it, the moniker "sugar" in "sugar glider" derives from their sweet tooth which is satisfied largely by sugar-rich saps, gums, exudates and nectar. To bring it closer to home, consider the sweetness of maple syrup. Pretty sweet and sugary, huh? Well, it's the same as the sap from Acacia and Eucalypts. The bottom line: Saps contain both protein and carbs that gliders need to survive. Honey VERY CLOSELY approximates this native fare.

It is no wonder then, that glider food preparations as old as the 50-year-old Leadbetter's Mix (first formulated by the hermit-like and unfortunately misogynistic amateur naturalist Des Hackett), BML, HPW, etc., etc. contain honey. Of course they contain honey. It's much easier to get honey and feed it than it is to get pure Acacia and Eucalypt sap. So we feed them honey. It's a natural food and it is safe (filtered, never raw or comb).

Now, if your gliders are getting fat on a diet that uses honey, it's pretty easy to cut back on it. But that may not be the best way to keep their weight in check - just like cutting back on food in humans is NOT the sole way to keep OUR weight in check. That is to say that you must let your gliders run and jump and glide and play outside of their cage as much as possible. It is our general observation, out of about 100 gliders from about 30 colonies large and small, that the ones that run around a lot outside of the cage are not fat. The ones that languish in their cage without a lot of out-of-cage play or wheel time have a tendency to get fat. It's pretty simple really - just as it is with us humans.

In the spirit of full disclosure, allow me to admit that at Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary, our suggie soup recipe does in fact have honey in it. You can find the recipe here:

http://files.meetup.com/768852/LGRS_SuggieSoup.pdf

The nutritional breakdown of the recipe is here in the nutrition section of GG:

http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=36

We encourage you to ask for and look closely at the nutritional breakdown of any diet you are considering. Having a nutritional breakdown gives you the ability to see for yourself what the ratios are and how much actual protein, carbs, etc. your pets will be getting.

Take that nutritional analysis to your vet if you are not familiar with how it works.

If the purveyor of a certain diet does not offer a nutritional breakdown, then you really have no idea what you are feeding, do you? If you really want to use a diet from a person or organization that has not taken the time to offer a nutritional breakdown, you could poke the values in yourself here in the nutrition section using the recipe calculator.

But then it's only natural to ask yourself: "Why would someone or some organization who professes to have a good diet not publish a nutritional breakdown?"

We can think of only two reasons: 1) Laziness (which of course calls to question the veracity of the research done to come up with the diet in the first place); or 2) Arrogance (institutional or otherwise). Please consider these simple facts before deciding on a "popular" diet. Please also consider the motivation of the purveyor of the diet. Unfortunately, you will find a lot of commercial motivation and clique/clubbish motivations. Ask a lot of questions.

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P.S. This so-called "Glider Grub" Rita mentions in this thread is none other than Mazuri (now Purina) New World Primate #5MA5. You can buy a 25 lb. bag for $49.97.

Or, if you like being ripped off, you can buy a lousy 5 lbs. for $34.95 at Custom Cage Works.

Sadly, Custom Cage Works says on their site: "Glider Grub is designed to be an essential part of your glider's total feeding system. This high protein dry food is designed to take the place of live food and cooked meat supplying the gliders protein needs."

What crap! First of all, "Glider Grub" was NOT formulated for gliders. It was formulated by Purina to feed monkeys a simple cage staple. It was NOT designed as a total diet for gliders. Liars!!!@!!

That is of course, if you believe feeding pellets as a diet is the right thing to do. It isn't. At LGRS we call the "apples and pellets" diet foisted by trade show and flea market hucksters the "glider death diet." Too many gliders come in to our rescue half-dead from eating this crap. Just say "no" to pellets.



Edited by - LuckyGlider on Dec 04 2009 02:38:31 PM
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Dec 08 2009
07:08:22 PM
Tinker2 Starting Member 3 Posts
Wow! I am a fairly new glider owner myself and I think this thread has been one of the MOST useful things I have read about glider diets-ever.
I think everyones info. has been really useful and greatestgrammie you have asked a ton of wonderful questions
Dahlia I think your recipes have been a lifesafer for me!! I would love to know your feeding schedule if you wouldn't mind passing that along to me. It really sounds like you know your stuff when it comes to gliders!!
Thanks!
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Dec 08 2009
10:14:52 PM
Dahlia_2020 Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Dahlia_2020's Photo Album SC, USA 1419 Posts
If you mean how much I feed a day per glider, then it's a tablespoon of a fruit cocktail, a tablespoon of a veggie relish and a teaspoon and a half of HPW per glider. I have six different fruit recipes and two (but soon to be five) veggie relishes. I have three gliders (at the moment! ;) ) They get a different one (3 cubes of one of the fruit cocktails and three cubes of one of the veggie relishes plus their HPW) each night until the rotation starts over. Because my veggie relishes are all blended to the consistency of babyfood (it's the only way my guys will eat all their veggies but not everyone's gliders are like this. Some like theirs chunky.) it means that their serving is more condensed which means they are getting more veggies than fruit in a night, as it should be. I DON'T have to blend my fruit cocktails.

I'll occasionally offer a little boiled chicken and extra papaya during the day if my babies decide to wake up and want to come out and play, but I don't keep anything extra in their cage.

And I agree, this thread has become one of the most informative on diets that I've seen lately. LuckyGlider's post was a wonderful addition and contained some fantastic points.
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Dec 09 2009
09:35:21 AM
Tinker2 Starting Member 3 Posts
Thank you Dahlia,yes that's exactly what I was looking for ;) My girls are still young and I'm trying to figure out how much to feed them and what they like. I switched from BML to the HPW and they love it and have made a veggie relish and fruit cocktail and this seems to be working out great.
Thanks again for your research and contributions!! I'll be keeping my eyes out for your recipes ;)
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Jan 24 2010
01:39:20 PM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
For what it's worth,I have chosen to use my own version of the Leadbeaters Diet served over a small chunk of bread, alternately supplemented with freshly diced vegetables and fruits while still leaving out a few pellets of the dry food they came with though they rarely if ever touch the dry pellets.
I've tried hard boiled eggs in every fashion imaginable and my girls refuse to eat them as they also refuse banana and peaunt butter.

I've still be online doing research on this matter and as reported by the North American Sugar Glider Association, dry food pellets didn't use to be a viable source of food for the nutrional needs of the Sugar Glider but over the years it has improved and several dry pellet foods on the market today are recommendable if vet approved as long as they are supplemented with fruits and vegetables and proper vitamins/minerals are added.

Today. . . alittle over 11wks into my Sugar Glider venture my girls have all but quit biting thanks to the "LIQUID GOLD" recipe that I received.They still nip/ganw as if to be exploring my hand etc but when that occurs I simply blow gently in their face and they back off to reapproach my hand again in a calmer manner of exploration.
My girls know my voice when I come into the room where I keep them and will always come to the front of the cage when I talk to them and give them my signal of impending finger treats.
We aren't to the "Out of Cage" experience yet but it is very close and all I can say is that my decision to become a Sugar Glider owner has been one of the finest decisions I have ever made and even if my girls never come any further than they have now I am still tickled plumb to death with them.
They seem to be quite happy and I see great improvement in their coats since obtaining them. They are frisky,playful and one of them is quite mischievious having jumped out of the cage to my shoulder and to the wall of my closet when I had the cage door open to offer finger lickety treats.
They are quite content in sharing the offerings that they can hold in their hands such as shelled pecans and crickets.

Time,patience,perserverance and the desire to research,ask questions,research some more has helped me more than anything. I want to try and take on more female Sugar Gliders as I have no desire to breed course seeing and holding a new baby would certainly be a wonderful experience but one I think I will just dream about. In my thoughts about taking on other females I have researched equally and hardly find any advise on this,not even on this website so I trudge on in the hopes to find all I need to know so that I can take on other little creatures that many others thought they wanted but now realize they don't have time for or have decided the responsibility is more than they want.
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Jan 24 2010
01:58:15 PM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
Just so you know, NASGA is a PPP owned site. They will always support pellet food.

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=13524&whichpage=1

Just out of curiosity, why the bread?

Edited by - kyro298 on Jan 24 2010 02:00:08 PM
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Jan 24 2010
02:30:49 PM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
quote:
Originally posted by kyro298

Just so you know, NASGA is a PPP owned site. They will always support pellet food.

http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=13524&whichpage=1

Just out of curiosity, why the bread?



Yep!

"As noted earlier, the simple fact is the NO legitimate Sugar Glider Rescues are actively operating anywhere in the U.S."

Wow, were have we heard that before?!?!?


I would avoid that site!

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Jan 24 2010
05:46:06 PM
Rita Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Rita's Photo Album Rita's Journal MO, USA 12214 Posts
What is the "Liquid Gold" recipe? And what is it used for? Never heard of that before...
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Jan 24 2010
06:57:45 PM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
I think she was referring to a trick for licky treats if I remember correctly.
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Jan 25 2010
12:15:37 AM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
Something they spray on their hands before they handle them, I think,it goes with the sticking your finger in their mouths when they bite.
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Jan 25 2010
05:00:55 AM
snusie Goofy Gorillatoes GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit snusie's Photo Album snusie's Journal USA 2962 Posts
No, it's chicken baby food offered as a licky treat.
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Jan 25 2010
09:23:08 AM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
Greatestgrammie what is the "LIQUID GOLD" ?
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Jan 25 2010
09:28:11 AM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
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Jan 25 2010
09:47:37 AM
Catman Goose Catcher GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit Catman's Photo Album CO, USA 2670 Posts
Ahhhhh thank you.
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Jan 25 2010
01:53:17 PM
Dahlia_2020 Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Dahlia_2020's Photo Album SC, USA 1419 Posts
Bread? Peanut Butter? I can understand you not wanting to turn loose of offering them a few pellets, even though I don't agree and have told you this multiple times... but why in the world do you want to feed them bread and peanut butter???

What about CALCIUM?? I have yet to hear you tell me what you are doing as far as calcium and a proper selection of fruits and veggies that reflect this. They HAVE to get twice as much absorbable calcium to phosphorous, or any diet is going to be worthless in the long run, as they need calcium like they need oxygen.

And if they are not eating eggs, then another protein source is neccessary. Nuts or a nut based source isn't good enough. Nuts can also be hard on their digestion, if I'm remembering correctly...
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Jan 25 2010
01:56:06 PM
Dahlia_2020 Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Dahlia_2020's Photo Album SC, USA 1419 Posts
Oh, and totally not related to my above post, but I've mentioned my recipes throughout this thread, but now have a selection of new ones that were listed a few weeks ago, so I've been meaning to update this thread with them... I'm going to do that real quick why I'm thinking about it...

Fruit Cocktails


Banana/Papaya/Watermelon Fruit Cocktail
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=32

Kiwi/Strawberry/Banana/Papaya Fruit Cocktail
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=72

Peach/Pineapple/Honeydew/Papaya Fruit Cocktail
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=61

Papaya/Strawberry/Blueberry/Raspberry/Blackberry Fruit Cocktail
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=74

Papaya/Mango/Blueberry Fruit Cocktail
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=41

Papaya/Apple/Pear/Cantaloupe Fruit Cocktail
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=75


~~~~~~


Veggie Relishes



Veggie Relish Recipe #1
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=52

Veggie Relish Recipe #2
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=92

Veggie Relish Recipe #3
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=93

Veggie Relish Recipe #4
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=80

Veggie Relish Recipe #5
http://www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=79


~~~~~~


older version of veggie relish #2
www.sugarglider.com/nutrition/viewrecipe.asp?item=58
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Jan 25 2010
02:09:37 PM
Dahlia_2020 Fuzzy Wuzzy GliderMap Visit Dahlia_2020's Photo Album SC, USA 1419 Posts
Ok, I'm posting some pictures that I think should really be included in this thread, not just for you, Greatestgrammie, but for anyone else who is reading or ever will read this thread.

These were originally posted by LuckyGlider, so they belong to him, not me, but I'm sure he'll forgive me for poaching them, given the point I'm trying to make.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, well... here you go. Maybe if more people saw these there wouldn't be so many gliders dying painfully from calcium deficiencies.

I challenge anyone to look at these pictures, save them to your computer, then open them and scale them down to actual life-size representations of your glider's skeletal structure... and then see for yourself why calcium is SO not negotiable.





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Jan 26 2010
02:12:20 PM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
LIQUID GOLD is a mixture of Chicken Baby Food and Baby Applesauce that was recommended to me on Glider Central when I posed my issue of blood drawing bites. It was suggested that I use this in an effort to show "my girls" that fingers were "friendly". Two days into offering this "my girsl" demeanor calmed down and all but quit giving me blood drawing bites. They have since outgrown this mixture and rarely take it now.
I had read someone's comment somewhere either on Glider Central or Glider Gossip that said they offered their Sugar Gliders Peanut Butter lick treats so I thought I would try this. . . .they don't like it,end of story. I haven't offered it but once or twice in the last 2mo.
I just thought that offering some bread would just change things up abit with their main meal of my version of Leadbeaters.Didn't figure it would hurt them since it is basically empty calories for them.

I use Dry Whole Wheat Baby Cereal/water to mix with Honey or Yogurt and some Baby Meat. Of late I've even tried mixing Babyfood Meat/Mixed Vegetables and they love this esp when I serve it on a tiny piece of bread. This Whole Wheat Baby Cereal is 15% protein and 25% Calcium among other nutrients. I don't/can't use egg because I've offered egg in every form but poached and after 6 tries,they just plain don't like egg.I wonder if it is the smell?
My girls get this Whole Wheat Baby Cereal mix every night. . . some nights over bread but most nights without the bread. I always give a bowl of either fruit or vegetables. . . . I alternate nightly.
One night I offer FRESH diced Fruits that I dice up just moments before serving. . .each time I offer fruit I use different combinations so to give more variety and I sprinkle their vitamins/minerals over them upon serving. The fruits I use are. . . . . .
Apple (green or red) Oranges
Watermelon (seedless) Pears
Mango Raisins (washed and soaked)
Blackberries Cherries (seed removed)
Canalope Green grapes
Bananas Kiwi Fruit
I haven't located any Papaya yet whether fresh,canned or frozen but I am still looking.

The next night I offer FRESH diced Vegetables that I dice up just moments before feeding. The vegetables in different combinations that I use are. . . . .
Mustard Greens Cucumber (peeled)
Spinach Celery (sparingly and stringed)
Spring Peas Romaine lettuce (sparingly)
Brussel Sprouts Sweet Potato
Avocado (sparingly) Zuchnni Squash(peeled)
Shredded carrots Jicama(peeled)
Bell Peppers Green/Yellow/Red
Baby food Green Beans,Sweet Peas or Carrots mixed with the
Whole Wheat Baby Cereal.

Sometimes I also have a bowl of Raspberry Yogurt for the girls for "dessert". . . LOL LOL

I thought I was using alot of the vegetables that Dahlia has suggested that did have proper ratios though I know some of those that I serve do not have that exact ratio. In my research I read that those vegetables with the most green were the highest in phosphorous and that is why I chose the Mustard Greens,Spinach,Spring Peas etc.

I have 12 pieces of dry pellet in their bowl that I left for them 3 days ago and they haven't touched them.I don't know why I feel like I need to leave these dry pieces out but if if they offer some kind of nutrients I don't see the harm in offering a minute amount of them for "the girls" to munch on until I get home from work should they get up before I get home and have a hunger pain.
Two different times in the last 11wks I have offered Crickets to them though they won't take them til I kill them. I give this only as a treat.

I read each and every food label prior to my purchase to check the calcium percentage and the protein percentages. I try to always buy those with the highest protein levels and those that have the highest Calcium levels to offer with those freshly diced vegetables with what I thought had been suggested.



 Look what I found on Ebay
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Jan 26 2010
03:45:27 PM
joanncat18 Joey 36 Posts
Thank you so much Dahlia for those recipes. I will use these after I get my future babies. Along with HPW. I am glad you already did all the analysis and science part. Then we can just make them and serve.

Jamie
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Jan 28 2010
09:09:38 AM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
Feeling guilty that I am a lousy Sugar Glider owner because I'm not perfectly following suggested diets 110% I again go online to check protein,calcium and phosphorus levels of the veggies and fruits that I am feeding and I find out that the majority of fruits and veggies I'm feeding FRESH DAILY are some of the ones with atleast the highest levels of phosphorus.
Of the 10 Fruits with High Phosphorus Content I have only missed feeding 1 of them. . . . Lime. Don't think "The Girls" would take to Lime but I can try it.
Of the 13 Vegetables with High Phosphorus Content I have only missed feeding 6 of them. Artichoke (though I recently saw some at the store and considered it but wanted to check on it first),Cabbage/Califlower/
Corn/Mushrooms/Potato. I didn't think the Cabbage and Califlower was good because of the "gas" issue. Thought Corn was pretty much Taboo,didn't think Mushroom was good for them and just plain didn't think of the Potato but in tomorrows veggie plate I will certainly add a few pieces.
In checking on Papaya I see that it is low in vit/mineral content but higher in the "natural energy sugars" as it is stated. . . . I haven't found Papaya in my grocery stores whether fresh/canned/juice but I'm still looking. I have been relying on everyday fruits to help provide that "natural energy sugars". I also thought that the Honey I've been talked into using was also of the "natural energy sugars".

Because Anonymous posted their query on Dec 3,2009 I'm not really wanting to get back on the issues of diet. . .I'm not on Glider Gossip to create discord I merely wanted to "Update" those of you who had been of so much help in my decisions of "Putting a Diet Together. . . . . " and to let you know that me and "The Girls" were OK and that we are making great strides.
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Jan 28 2010
09:39:57 AM
kyro298 Glider Sprinkles GliderMap Gliderpedia Editor Visit kyro298's Photo Album kyro298's Journal CO, USA 15262 Posts
No one said you were a lousy owner. This is one of the best diet threads ever posted. I do think you're making it too hard on yourself though. This is why people suggest the recommended diets..no guesswork. All the ingredients are listed. As far as fruits and veggies, Dahlia provided links to all her relishes that are also pre-calculated. If you do wind up feeding some veggies that are higher in ph, just feed something with it that's even higher in Ca to balance it out. No one has it perfect, that's for sure. However, the resources are certainly there and make it so much easier on all of us. We love to hear about your progress too. If you were a lousy owner, you wouldn't even be here. :)
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Jan 28 2010
11:53:08 AM
Candy Cuddle Bear Visit Candy's Photo Album FL, USA 8110 Posts
quote:
I just thought that offering some bread would just change things up abit with their main meal of my version of Leadbeaters.Didn't figure it would hurt them since it is basically empty calories for them.


Gliders have very small stomachs. They do not need "empty calories" that provide little nutrients. I think most of us try to maximize the nutrients we feed in their small volume meals.

quote:
In checking on Papaya I see that it is low in vit/mineral content but higher in the "natural energy sugars" as it is stated. . . .


Actually Papaya has one of the highest Ca:P ratios compared to most other fruits and vegetables which is the reason it is used in so many of the veggie & fruit relish combinations
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Jan 28 2010
01:29:46 PM
LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts GliderMap Visit LuckyGlider's Photo Album LuckyGlider's Journal TX, USA 5266 Posts
Wait, it's OK to feed them a little bread guys. Gliders metabolize a lot of energy in the form of glucose, sucrose and complex polysaccharides derived from pollens and saps. These, and the sugars metabolized from the enzymatic digestion of bread, are not as empty as you may think. Just don't go overboard on the bread. A small cube of it along with other foods is OK so long as the entire offering is balanced.

We are in love with the recipe calculator here. It's a great tool and you can use it to take the "guilt" out of preparing your diets for suggies.

There are a couple of "gotchas" to keep in mind though:

1. Dark, green leafy veggies like Spinach and Kale tecnically have way more Calcium than Phosphorus, but I recommend that you manually SUBTRACT OUT all of the calcium from these foods because some 90% of it is not metabolized owing to the high oxalate content of dark, leafy veggies. This ratios document has a section in it on oxalates: http://files.meetup.com/768852/Ratios.pdf I would still defer to the authority of the nutritional content using the calculator here, but this file is good to review the high oxalate foods.

Human RDA is about 1,000 mg of Calcium. Most human-grade calcium supplements have between 1,000 to 1,200 mg of Calcium per teaspoon. A pinch is 1/8th of a teaspoon. Spread that out over a ten or twelve servings of suggie food and you are close to an optimal amt (between 15 and 25 mg per serving). They don't need more than that.

2. Watch out for iron. We only offer 16 mg or iron in an entire 7-cup batch of food. With a serving size of two tablespoons, that comes out to .28 mg or iron per serving. If you are wondering what foods and supplements have a lot of iron, here are the ones to watch out for: Rep Cal Herptivite Multivitamin, Wheat Germ, and Iron-fortified baby foods for example.

3. They only metabolize what they EAT. This is why soups and pate/relishes and other blends are a good idea. If you give them papaya, a hunk of skinless turkey and corn, but all they eat is corn, then the Ca:P ratio you so diligently worked on is down the drain. Consider blending the foods so they are forced to eat what you mixed.
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Jan 29 2010
11:33:18 AM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
OK,because I got blasted before when according to Anonymous I need to quit asking questions and just do as I'm told I will simplfy things by just asking. . . .With what I've provided in details,am I feeding a more balanced Sugar Glider diet?
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Jan 29 2010
12:11:21 PM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
As to the photo provided of the skeleton of a "Calcium deficent" Sugar Glider. . I have medical experience though not in the X-ray Dept nor do I have the expertise to evauluate Xrays but with what I know about X-rays,all of the bones of this Sugar Glider appear to have a normal consistency. The spine issue may or may not be as a result of Calcium Deficency as much as an issue of Bone Formation that is either genetic,hereditary (whereas humans can suffer curvature of the spine known as Scoliosis I suppose animals could too) or as a result of improper caging/pouching or as a result of abuse.
I am under the impression with what I do know about Xrays,one would examine the structure of the bones themselves as to Calcium Deficency. Bone density verses Bone Structure is a more reliable testimony to Calcium Deficency.
The fact that all of the other boney structure of this skeleton appear to be normal with no obvious breaks or deformities I am more inclined to think this is an issue other than the lacking of Calcium in the Sugar Glider's diet.
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Jan 29 2010
12:38:42 PM
Stevos Joey GliderMap 43 Posts
I think the point of the xray was to display how small the bones of a sugar glider are, and therefore how important calcium is. However, the photos dont really accomplish that. skeletal structurs are proportate to the weight they must carry. For the most part, a calcium defficeny wont show on on xrays for humans or animals. Excess calcium can someimtes show up in xrays
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Jan 29 2010
02:27:05 PM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
Somewhat true Stevos BUT I took the picture to show that without proper Calcium it is possible for defects in the skeleton such as the curved spine of a Sugar Glider in the Xray.
ONLY a bone density test could prove a lack of calcium.

Edited by - Greatestgrammie on Jan 29 2010 02:38:51 PM
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Feb 17 2010
09:04:19 AM
Greatestgrammie Glider 77 Posts
Again,not trying to stir up anymore debate over diet I just wanted to mention that in my label reading of food products I see where Bran Flakes or Raisin Bran has quite abit of Vitamin D (calcium) and Phosphorus so I tried a few dry flakes of Bran with "my girls" last night and though they didn't eat much of them as this was their introduction to them,I will try them again as a "side dish" to their usual feeding that they really seem to enjoy.
I had previously mentioned that one of my local Pet Stores was actually feeding the Sugar Gliders at their store with some cold boiled shrimp with tails. I shuttered that this thought and have been discouraged by others to this practice but again,in my ongoing research I find that cold boiled shrimp DOES almost have the perfect 2:1 Ratio as I am told that Sugar Gliders need.
While Bran and Shrimp may not be good on a daily basis they both certainly bear consideration.
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