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Catman Goose Catcher     CO, USA 2670 Posts Candy Cuddle Bear FL, USA 8110 Posts Well, for those of you wondering what The Association of Sugar Glider Veterinarians actually is, Here is the answer. The Association of Sugar Glider Veterinarians is a FICTITIOUS NAME registered in the State of Florida on July 13, 2009 and CANCELLED on October 20, 2009. www.sunbiz.org/scripts/ficidet.exe?action=DETREG&docnum=G09000134327&rdocnum=G09000134327
So Folks - the "Association" technically no longer exists. The Owner of the Fictitious Name is Kathy Klunder The domain name for the web site ASGV.org was first registered January 29, 2009 by Domains by Proxy, Inc. whois.domaintools.com/asgv.org
Oh, the domain name was registered for only 1 year! it expires Jan 29, 2010. I do not know of any legitimate company or organization that registers their Domain name for only 1 year (it is way cheaper per year to register for 5 years than to pay in 1 year increments) So Folks, by checking the public records - The Association of Sugar Glider Veterinarians DID NOT EXIST BEFORE 2009 AND the domain was registered in a way that HIDES its actual ownership. AND the "Association" itself is a FICTITIOUS NAME - that has already been CANCELLED by its owner. Gotta Luv Public Records folks.................... filly47 Goofy Gorillatoes USA 2330 Posts What are the lies and what are the facts? I understand why you might get frustrated by people saying that PPP and their affiliates lie without giving the details as far as lying, but we have already had a dozen other threads where we have had to discuss this, and it just gets tiring after a while to have to keep explaining and proving. But here is the low down for you. LIE/TRUTH They are diurnal, awake during the day./They are in fact nocturnal which is clearly evident by their large eye size and profound gearing towards scent motivation and scent marking which are all very evident in nocturnal creatures. Also in their natural habitat they are nocturnal, not even crepuscual (okay spelled wrong sorry). They only have to have this one type of pelleted food./First off they are promoting one product which is a huge moneymaker for that corporation. Seconf of all, it has a lot of corn fillers which are horrible for a creature with a calcium absorbtion problem because it is high in phosphorous. Thirdly, and most importantly, everything about their tooth structure and digestive system is meant to handle a mostly liquid or semi-liquid diet (they feed primarily on honeydew-an insect secretion). Their teeth are designed to scrape and squish and suck, and their behavior is geared toward not needing a major water source as they get it from their fruit. Their systems are not equipped for a purely pelleted diet. It simply isn't, the evolution and ethology all points to that. They can be trained to use the bathroom and to glide./Yes you can train most any animal through conditioning and reinforcing certain behaviors, but their little brains (as smart as they sometimes can be) just aren't equipped like a dog or horse or other captive bred creature's is and is stubborn to most any type of training. They might eventually be able to be coerced into gliding to someone, but that is after extensive time and labor for both glider and human. A wild animal's brain is wire differently and is not as docile as a captive animal's brain because the genetics of a llama versus a guanaco are entirely different. Llamas were bred for a calmer nature and guanacos (their wild cousins) when in captivity can kill humans without a thought. They don't make noise or are not noisy (depending on which person is speaking that day at the PPP stand)./They make a variety of sounds and can be very vocal at times. It is called communication. Sound travels well and is easy to pick up on in the darkness by other members of the colony and hence is a primary form of communication amung gliders. It is second only to smell. Ask any of us who have been woken up by barking more than once a night! They don't bite (yes they actually tell people that!)./They have razor sharp teeth because they consume tough protien in the exoskeleton of bugs. They also have a behavior to scrape humans skin in an attemt to get sap. This is a natural behavior in the wild as they would do to the bark of a tree trunk. They are happier with more but are okay with one./Research self mutilation on here and you will see the horrible stories of what can go wrong with a single glider. They are great for people of any age./The very young and very old should not have a glider without supervision. They are time consuming, require diet preparation and extensive cleaning, and of course are exotics. They have some wild tendencies and are quick as can be-they can easily get stepped on or escape. I will add more later if you need more proof of their lies. Oh yeah and they love to bully people into 'seeing the light'. snusie Goofy Gorillatoes  USA 2962 Posts Candy Cuddle Bear FL, USA 8110 Posts Glider Invasion Joey USA 20 Posts Hey, I have 2 cents. So here it is. One of my glider parents gave me their flyer from PPP, after their 2 glider both died. The division out of Fla. calls the 'GLIDER food', Glider Chow. The flier I have is from their broker out of Dallas Tx, which call it Glider Grub. QUOTE..."Purina makes what we consider the best protein food in dry form that we know of.WE repackage it, with their permission and call it Glider Grub. (They only sell big bags). It is very inexpensive to feed and eliminates the odor problems". unquote. Now, all we need to do is to go to the grocery store, oh, no wait...the pet store, wait...Walmart, No, it was at the....? Shoot, Now where did I see that GLIDER FOOD made by PURINA?? How much did I pay PPP for the DOG FOOD? Oh, wait. I also got a cage that is ok for my hamster. AND I got a heat rock for my COLD BLOODED REPTILE, (because it will cause my glider to dehydrate)! But, I also got a single layered cage pouch AND a singled layered bonding pouch. Along with some crap called... Vitamins OR, Vita Glider. Why do they change their own names of everything? (can't make up my mind, which to flush first). And it only cost me $489.00. OH, but wait again. Gosh, I didn't even buy a Sugar Glider....I got a "SUGAR BEAR". AND with those great,cheap pouches AND the YEARS SUPPLY of DOG FOOD that can sit around for a year, AND I still get to feed it to my pet! Whoopee!! But, I forgot. This is their 'deluxe package'. I get to spend $1000.00 !!!! Now I get to sit back & wait for my glider to die. Gee look, it isn't moving. I don't have to wait long at all!!!!! I wish I had kept count of how many of their customers, I have hears this 'exact', story from in the past 2 yrs they have showed up in Md. Not to mention the prior 6 yrs, I have read about other PPP victims and their dead and infected gliders. Adura, Does your "vet" know anything about bacteria, air born spores, parasites or ANY idea of how they are transferred? Does your doctor also operate with his arm around another patient? Would you expect him to examine your child with a TB patient sitting on the table also? Would you feel safe or sterile in this situation? Why wound you put you glider in danger of this unsanitary & absurd man. Glider Invasion Joey USA 20 Posts Wake up Audra, Coffee's brewing! JMO,I think your vet is - ASS certified! Candy, Filly, Catman Kyro & Wintersong, you guys are to much! And Rita, I was thinking the exact thing - TROLL! One has to be teachable, in order to learn. But keep up the good work and think of all the suggies who have mommys & daddys that do listen. Those will have a better chance because of you. You guys are great!
Some photos from our members LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts TOP TEN EVIL PRACTICES OF MILL BREEDERS 1. We do not believe it is ethical for a commercial organization to masquerade as a non-profit by putting up web sites with .org designations. It is our opinion that this is a dirtball tactic. And it is HILARIOUSLY transparent when the hyperlinks lead back to the commercial site and the words, phrases and syntax are practically mirrored on the commercial site. I mean they say criminals are "stupid" and it's funny because these people must think they are "smart" but c'mon anyone can check the domain registers for who got a web site registered, etc. And anyone can trace-bank URL links to the referring site, etc. 2. We do not believe it is ethical to create a so-called "Product Review Site" that speaks bad about everyone but the one vendor who obviously created the site. Especially when you get bogus messages saying "because of possible spam, we can't let you post your own reviews, etc." What a COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT scam!!!! And the "Product Review Site" goes on to tell lies and break bad on legit organizations like a few rescues and this site for example. What evil scum! 3. We believe it is the height of cynicism and corruption to hoodwink a DVM into adding ill-deserved legitimacy to a commercial enterprise when that enterprise is in effect a mill breeder. Any DVM that would take money and then lend legitimacy to such an enterprise is either completely naive or has no soul. 4. We believe it is both cynical, evil, and wrong-headed to "cartoon-ize" exotic animals and "package" them for little, teeny-weenie pre-pubescent children who have no business caring for exotics. We believe it is a disgusting practice to paper a web site with cartoon-ized images of sugar gliders that appeal to children. Little kids don't even have the proper motor control to NOT crush or stomp on gliders when they get bit. 5. We believe it is evil to change the common name of an exotic to some name that belies the true nature of it being an exotic. It like calling brine shrimp "Sea Monkeys." OK, I can overlook the fact that brine shrimp die in the thousands in poorly-cared-for goldfish bowls. But Sugar Gliders are not brine shrimp. And to hide what they are by changing their name to further re-package them for little kiddies who hold "teddy Bears" - sorry, it's a dirtball tactic. Pure evil. 6. We believe it is ethics-free to sell exotic animals such as sugar gliders in impulse-buy venues such as flea markets, trade shows and malls. Sugar Gliders are not trinkets. They are not Sham-Wows. They are exotic animals and pushing them off on people as if they were hamsters that are completely domesticated is just plain wrong. Impulse buy venues are great for selling impulse items like sunglasses and little blinky-lites that go on your cell phone, but too many people get these things home only to find out they made a big mistake and were hoodwinked into believing gliders are as easy as hamsters, etc. 7. We believe it is completely inhumane and irresponsible to promote the idea that sugar gliders "get along" with other animals. They don't. Oh sorry, they "get along" with dog stomachs and cat stomachs. That's what they get along with. This is just a cynical and inhumane ploy to talk pet owners, who are the most likely to buy on impulse anyway. Pure evil. We know of more than one mill breeder and more than one "trade show glider hawker" that show photos of gliders with other animals. Proof? This past year alone, several gliders came in to our rescue "solo" because their mates had been eaten by dogs. We just got done caring for another rescue who was bitten by a dog whilst in foster care. He lived but had to get stitches and suffered nerve damage. 8. We believe it is ethics-free to push pellets, regardless of their origin, as a diet. We call (pellets and apples) the GLIDER DEATH DIET. I can't tell you how many animals have come in here malnourished, with metabolic bone disease and other maladies because their primary diet was these CRAP pellets. The mill breeders foist pellets on people at these impulse buy venues because they want you to think they are as easy to feed as hamsters. They don't care if the animals die. 9. We believe it is completely laughable but sadly evil for mill breeders to push the idea that you can housebreak gliders. LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE. You can't. And telling people you can ends in... people abandoning them or dumping them on a rescue. 10. It is completely inhumane to sell solo gliders based on the idea that they are fine being alone. We have extensive experience in dealing with solo gliders and in most cases, they end up stressed-out, over-groomed and depressed. A lot of single gliders look just awful. We spend a lot of time trying to unite solo gliders but sadly some just don't get along with others. As most people who know anything about gliders know... the time to pair them is when they are young. johngault007 Joey USA 23 Posts Ok, really people, can I just get the two questions answered from the original post? I get less drama from 3 hours of Celeb-Reality tv watching. Questions again for those not wanting to scroll back: * What are some other credentials should we be looking for (in a vet)? * More importantly, what type of training or experience would be more beneficial (for that vet to have)? Like I stated, I want to be factual, but not put the guy on the defensive. I think he is a good vet, just doesn't have ALL the information, which I would like to provide for him. And no offense, but I can't walk in and say "Because SuggaLuvva8456 from this forum said so." These are professionals, that, like many of us, might have been duped into believing something, but I think they are open to our comments, concerns and options, if documented properly. I hope the questions get answered, please? LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by johngault007
Ok, really people, can I just get the two questions answered from the original post? I get less drama from 3 hours of Celeb-Reality tv watching.
Questions again for those not wanting to scroll back:
* What are some other credentials should we be looking for (in a vet)?
* More importantly, what type of training or experience would be more beneficial (for that vet to have)?
Like I stated, I want to be factual, but not put the guy on the defensive. I think he is a good vet, just doesn't have ALL the information, which I would like to provide for him. And no offense, but I can't walk in and say "Because SuggaLuvva8456 from this forum said so." These are professionals, that, like many of us, might have been duped into believing something, but I think they are open to our comments, concerns and options, if documented properly.
I hope the questions get answered, please?
To answer those questions, consider this: 1. In addition to a DVM, a concentration on EXOTIC animals is highly recommended as a credential. This is because the treatment of exotics has some special disciplines. These include dealing with self-mutilation, exotic diets, small-animal surgery, and other peculiarities of the species most vets are simply not trained for. 2. For example, our USDA veterinary program vet for the rescue spent two years in residency program at a school of Exotic Animal and Zoo Animal Medicine and Surgery. That prepared her to do the delicate surgeries that sugar gliders, for example, require. 3. Another credential that is especially important in sugar gliders deals with NUTRITION. Malnutrition is perhaps the #1 problem in sugar glider husbandry. A credential that should build confidence in your trust in a vet regarding giving you good advice on nutrition is... A master's degree in biochemistry and nutrition. Our vet has that and a chemistry degree as well. 4. In terms of training, a vet who has practiced at an EXOTIC animal hospital or zoo has a good basis in the experience area beyond the academic. 5. Ongoing research in the area of sugar gliders. There's another vet over in our neighboring state of AZ that is working with the DeRisi Lab to help with research on Sugar Glider Gall Bladder Cancer. So another "experience" would be the active involvement in research on internal organs, metabolic bone disease and necropsies of sugar gliders. To be clear, there are in fact veterinarians who specialize in exotics, have a lot of experience with sugar gliders and have been schooled in surgeries, nutrition and biochemistry. If your vet does not have these credentials, he or she still may be a good vet and still may be able to care for sugar gliders for routine issues. But if that vet represents an organization touting expertise of sugar gliders and has none of these credentials, or equal experience, I'd be curious. That said, beyond the academic and experiential credentials, the credential of a sound moral compass is probably just as important. nurseotter Glider TX, USA 85 Posts Luckyglider and Johngault, thank u for the helpful info. The only person I have been bashing is Catman, because he is a meanie! I am not bashing, yet again, just asking questions and playing "devil's advocate", cuz like I have said before... the next time I go to my vet, i have lotsa questions, and I want proof to back it up... audra LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts quote:
Originally posted by johngault007
Can we re-name this thread "How do I know if this vet is right for me" ?
Basically, I think I was trying to start a thread asking experienced owners:
* What to ask during their initial visit to a new vet?
* What questions should we be asking during subsequent visits.
* What are signs that a vet might not have extensive knowledge about gliders?
* Just because they mention ASGV, does that mean they are completely untrustworthy (factual evidence only please)?
Here are some more answers to more of your questions * What to ask during their initial visit to a new vet? First of all, before you go incurring a vist fee you should go to their web site or do some research over the phone. Ask: a. "How many sugar gliders do you see a month?" b. "What are examples of the types of procedures you have done on sugar gliders?" (e.g. eye enucleation, necropsies, open wound treatment, tooth decay, abscesses, pregnancies, rejection, self mutilation, etc.) c. What do you consider as being the best practice for pre- and post-surgery treatment of a male neuter (i.e. does he shave the area, leave the stalk, use pain meds, keep the animal overnight for observation to ensure no mutilation occurs, etc.) d. is it OK to feed them these pellets I got from the mill breeder or do I have to feed real food? * What questions should we be asking during subsequent visits. a. If I brought you the nutritional analysis of some popular sugar glider diets, would you be able to steer me away from danger and help me to pick a suitable one? b. Are you interested in participating in ongoing research on sugar glider diseases and maladies? Will you work with labs that analyze necropsies and organs to further their research? c. How do I keep my pet from self-mutilating or getting depressed? * What are signs that a vet might not have extensive knowledge about gliders? a. shaving fur at proposed surgery site pre-op. Any vet that knows about the self-mutilation tendencies of a sugar glider will not shave. b. not advocating pain medication post-surgery c. not advocating multi-day vet and vet tech observation at the clinic after surgery d. hands-off attitude with necrotic tissue such as ears or end-of-tail (just let it fall off) e. advocating pellets as a diet when the ingredients clearly state only 18% crude protein f. not being alarmed when people bring in solo gliders because they are colony animals * Just because they mention ASGV, does that mean they are completely untrustworthy (factual evidence only please)? Not necessarily. It could mean a lot of things like, for example: a. This vet is just too busy to have done any real due-diligence about the organization and unless someone puts it in his face what the origins of it are, he may assume they are ok, just like unsuspecting sugar glider buyers assume a mill breeder hawking gliders at a mall booth are not liars. b. The vet has a shaky moral compass, knows full well that a certain organization may be a "front" for a mill breeder, may agree to be the "DVM President" of such an organization because he was paid to do so. c. May be so tickled pink that such an organization exists, since he loves sugar gliders, that he does not want to know that anything could be wrong. Want factual evidence? Get your own: All you have to do is follow all the links, read all the words, compare them, check all the domain registrar information, public record information, and it all becomes pretty clear that some ".org" sites and "product review" sites are simple crass manipulations and misrepresentations of mill breeders. Do the research and the truth is self-evident.
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