you would be surprised that there are people here with degrees and work with wild animals. www.thesugargroup.org/ there you go : )

Professional studies about lone vs. colony behavior? Why don't you contact some of the sugar glider rescues? Luckyglider would be a great person to talk to. People's first-hand experiences are priceless information. They have the proof, they have pictures, they have stories. No professional study can give you that. Plus, it is a professional, biological and natural fact that sugar gliders are colony animals. You won't find anywhere that disputes that.

quote:

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Originally posted by RodneyW25

I understand where you are coming from tisha but to be quite frank I have yet to see this proof of which you speak. I have seen lots of conjecture for sure. No proof though. Please redirect me if you know where I can find said proof.

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Rodney, The proof is in that link. Go read the story of Jack. Jack was a lonely glider for TWO YEARS. Go look at the pictures of him. Look at his health. He was NOT a healthy glider and it was mostly caused to being alone. They self mutilate when they are alone. That's a fact. There are several members here who have rescued gliders that were alone and had been self mutilating. I am one of them as well. Go look up Kyros old post about Puff Daddy...same situation. They are colony animals, that is a fact. They NEED atleast one friend. Because if they don't then they will eventually start hurting themself.

The contradictions that you see about the behavior of a glider is because not one single glider is alike!! Just like dogs! There are some mean dogs, some nice dogs. Some mean pit bulls, some nice pit bulls. With gliders, most of it depends on how much time YOU spend bonding with them. I have four and some are more nice/more sociable than others. They are exotic animals and are still VERY wild. Most of them will overcome the wildness and will want to be sociable with you. But some will not.

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Originally posted by RodneyW25


I agree that animal cruelty can get my hackles up too but I also know a woman that thinks it is cruel to let her dog eat anything other than extremely expensive dog food so I just don't know who to believe.

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That is an opinion though. There is a difference between opinions and facts. Another thing you MUST remember with sugar gliders is that these are not domesticated animals! They have not been kept as pets for nearly as long as dogs and cats. So there just isn't a WHOLE lot that we know about them. We are constantly finding out about them. The problem is that if a glider is on a bad diet you may NEVER KNOW until it dies and you get a necropsy done at the vet. Then, you may find out that something you THOUGHT was ok was actually killing the animal. BUT, most people don't go through the trouble of getting a necropsy done. So yes, information is ever changing right now...BUT it is vital to make the appropriate changes as we learn! And the ONE THING that we know FOR SURE, is that they are colony animals and it's just NOT RIGHT to keep them alone! There are WAY too many stories on here of gliders that had self mutilated because they were LONE GLIDERS. But, some people choose to ignore that....

quote:

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Originally posted by tisha
The contradictions that you see about the behavior of a glider is because not one single glider is alike!! Just like dogs! There are some mean dogs, some nice dogs. Some mean pit bulls, some nice pit bulls. With gliders, most of it depends on how much time YOU spend bonding with them. I have four and some are more nice/more sociable than others. They are exotic animals and are still VERY wild. Most of them will overcome the wildness and will want to be sociable with you. But some will not.

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and that isnt something you can just pick out. its random and not a very big chance you will end up with one that wont become depressed by itself. so your better off getting a pair that is already together instead of getting one finding out its not one that is more sociable with humans and is fine by itself and then have to go though everything to find another glider that will get along with it while trying to keep your glider alive.

Okay.....seriously kinda mad right now. Rodney, what is zoo biology? That is not a real thing. There are schools for zookeeping and there are schools for biology or zoology. I am an ethologist. And a former zookeeper. I have a Bachelors Degree from a school that ranked higher than Harvard. I specialized in evolutionary biology and animal behavior. I have written literally dozens of times the exact reasons against pellets and other PPP lies based on the evolution and specialization of this animal. I will try to look up my archived posts if you are really interested.

Unfortunately there are very few studies out there on sugar gliders because the world is just a bit more concerned with things like disease and saving endangered species. Sugar glider research is not exactly at the top of the list. The 'studies' that 'have' been performed are by glider mills and have only the tiniest speck of scientific merit. There were not controls and the data and tests were warped to provide a certain outcome. Trust me I have taught numerous classes on the scientific method and scientific integrity, and PPP tests fail miserably at both of these.

Why do you want to throw in thee towel? Are we not giving you good advice? Ask your questions and we would be happy to answer them. There are many people on this board with science backgrounds, and even some in Australia who can verify the truths. Now there are certain issues which are debateable even amung the higher starred individuals, but that is why this is an open forum. A place where people can exchange their ideas and the person reading can decide for themselves. What has not been answered for you?

Also, the reason you'll be hard pressed to find "scientific documentation" of lone vs. colony behavior is a) it can really be studied in the wild since they all live together as a COLONY and b) no one in their right mind would subject an animal they love to a life of solitude for scientific research.

I am about to throw in the towel because even though I do not believe the "mill lies" as you like to call them I can not get much of a straight answer from anyone on even simple subjects about sugar gliders.

To add insult to injury the people I am pretty sure are lying tend to use logic much more successfully than people on this board so although my heart is telling me that you guys probably are correct it is lying trying to give a child the benefit of the doubt over a college graduate. Frustrating to say the least.

What EXACTLY are you looking for answers about? I will try to find facts to back it up for you. I can understand why you'd want that.

It doesn't take a zoologist or any other professional to state the obvious. However, if you really need to contact someone of importance because you can't comprehend the truth told to you by those of us who have experience in the care and nutrition of sugar gliders, then go look for your professionals. I'm sure you can find some well known doctors who claim to be professionals in the care of sugar gliders, I'm sure they wouldn't mind DUPING you (thinking of one in-particular). After all he even states openly that sugar gliders can't bite hard enough to even break the skin, yup he is a great resource alright(sarcasm).

You know I often wonder if these anonymous posters are PPP POSERS. Seems they try so dispiritedly to dispute what the people who love and care about these wonderful creatures have to say. The next thing they'll be doing, is adding this site to their posters and brochures telling people to stay away. They say it enough. Why? because they stand to loose their ill gotten bank rolls if you really knew the truth about them, that's why.

My opinion? If you really want answers, you have come to the right place. Right here where we care about our furry families, if you want lies and deceit keep believing in these mill breeders who don't give a hoot about an animal so long as they can make a buck.

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Originally posted by kyro298

Professional studies about lone vs. colony behavior? Why don't you contact some of the sugar glider rescues? Luckyglider would be a great person to talk to. People's first-hand experiences are priceless information. They have the proof, they have pictures, they have stories. No professional study can give you that. Plus, it is a professional, biological and natural fact that sugar gliders are colony animals. You won't find anywhere that disputes that.

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Val -- Something_To_Believe_In on this board -- would also be a good person to talk to about this.

Absolutely!

Rodney, this post asks about keeping a single sugar glider.
There was a simple answer to that... It's not right to keep a single sugar glider because sugar gliders are colony creatures. There is your simple answer.

Rodney - don't give up yet because these are the most amazing animals. I've had mine since Sept and when the previous owner told me "please don't separate them" I blew it off. Shaddow said it best, I think it's like the 4th post on this thread - when you see them interact you will see how they really do depend on each other and it will be very obvious when you see them together. I've been reading info on this site for months and haven't posted very much - yes, you guys can scare me sometimes, but I understand now it is because you are very passionate about these little angels. I'm always afraid that my question will be viewed by some as "dumb" and answered that way. Maybe I'm taking some of the answers the wrong way - certainly possible.

Rodney - set aside what may be misconstrued tone (as it is sometimes difficult to decern in txt) - someone else said nothing is better than hearing from those who have experienced it - and that is true of any situation. Taking care of one is absolutely no different than taking care of two. They really are happier Rodney. And, when you aren't there they will never be alone. I just don't want you to miss out on a great experience -

Best wishes -
Renee

Thank you for your post Renee. I agree that a lot of what some of us say can be misconstrued, and also come off as harsh. Some people get frustrated over answering the same questions over and over, and some of us just come off wrong. (The bad bad thing about text)

We all do really mean well. I personally believe dozens of personal accounts, trump scientific research. Yes, I admit not all gliders are the same, but the majority of us have experienced the same thing when it comes to multiple gliders being a benefit for their mental and physical health. I myself have experienced it. And of course since there is so little written information and research done on these guys, this is our most reliable source.

So please don't give up yet.

When i got my first glider, he was a lone glider, he's 2 1/2 and seemed happy to the previous owner. I brought him home ,got him on a good diet and a HUGE cage. I was doing everything right and yet he still didn't seem quite happy. Yes he was playing alot more than he had and I spent endless hours with him. He has tons of toys and treats and I thoroughly enjoy him.

I got the chance to get my girl and jumped at it. I went and picked her up and brought her home. She crabbed a little and once my guy heard that they started talking. She had been a lone glider as well. And her owner thought she was happy.

After i put them together you wouldn't believe the difference in them. They talk and chatter and gang up on me. Ok, so that's kinda fun for me too.

The point is: I was one of those people who thought only having one glider was just fine. That everyone was just giving me a hard time to get to buy another one. I was rather upset at first and then realized that the people here know what they are talking about. Yes we all have varied backgrounds and such, but we have one big thing in common.

WE LOVE OUR SUGGIES!!!!!!

I truly do not like that you have the option of posting as anonymous. If you want to say something, just say it.
If more than a person or two 'rip you apart', chances are YOU are the one in the wrong and should correct.

I don't think anybody in here has 'been mean' to anybody. They really do care for all gliders, not just their own.

I may only be a new glider mommy (23.5 hours at the time of this posting), and already dealing with drama with them, but these 23.5 hours alone have shown me why these people love these lil guys so much, even when they don't know all of them. ;)
When you feel strongly, you feel strongly 100%
Animal rights activists don't care about just dogs, or just cats, they care about all animals and that animals rights.

Don't hide behind the curtain. Let everybody help you.



While I was at the pet shop getting a few extra items before I got my girl I was blessed with two things/decisions.
#1, getting the only sugar glider owner 'handbook' they had. I may know a lot per TONS of research, but it doesn't hurt to have info at your fingertips at all times and another resource to turn to.

#2 The guy at the shop that was helping me is an owner of gliders himself, so he was able to give me a lot of hints and tips, a lot of which I had already gotten from the forum goers on here, but it's always nice to hear it again; like reinforcement that what you've heard is right.

The same thing the book said, he said, and people in here have said?....

Gliders can SEEM happy alone, but it's always best to have a friend for them. Their instincts are to be in colonies. Being alone will EVENTUALLY lead to problems.


As was mentioned earlier, people are really the same. Let me tell you something.
Back in September I was dealing with a pretty nasty breakup, and 'just wanted to be alone', which was the worst decision I could have made. I spent my time ALONE, and each day I ignored the world, the more depressed I got. I was so lonely.
I'd imagine it would be quite the same for gliders not having 'one of their own' with them.

Also, think of the fact that them being taken from whatever home they're used to and traveling X-amount of mileage to their new home, a place that looks, sounds, and smells totally different would be terrifying.
No matter the talking and explaining you do, they don't understand; they've got to be terrified. Now add to that they are alone, how traumatic.

Please don't do that to any glider. That's too inhumane in my mind.

I thought of ALL of these things, and I'm glad I got my girls. I know they are happier than they would have been had I chosen to get only one.
They cuddle and love on each other, and although I'm sure they'll always be that way to each other, they really need each other right now in such a stressful time.

At present, we have 77 in rescue and 16 pets.

This number fluctuates depending on how many mill breeders have blown in to town lately to dump gliders at trade shows. Gliders are surrendered or abandoned here in waves after the "cool" wears off and people realize they were lied to about biting, diets, "singles are cool" etc.

Anyway, the ones that come in single and who have been single for a long time are the ones with over-grooming and self-mutliation problems. Animals that are paired or in colonies generally do not have these problems unless they are in a big, out-of-control inbred colony with in-fighting. That happens a lot from clueless wanna-be hobby breeders. That's why we beg people not to breed. It almost always ends in heartache.

Just by simple observation we are able to deduce that loners experience a lot of stress compared to paired or colonized animals.

I don't reckon ripping out their fur or chewing on their tails until they bleed, or running in circles on the ceilings of their cages is a "happy" thing.

We have also observed of loners:
1. They seem to bite more
2. Some will "scream" (not crab, but scream) as you pass by the cage
3. They tend to run and hide more than animals who have cage mates

When singles are paired successfully with other animals, the over-grooming and self mutilation usually abate altogether or it is drastically reduced. These other behaviors usually go away when they are paired with another glider too. Of course, we do what we can to carry, coddle and pay extra attention to the single ones. But despite our best efforts, marked improvement only seems to occur when they are joined with an individual of the same species.

The oldest long-term single who came in was at eight years (Oscar). He did and does a small amount of over-grooming. He responded well to being introduced and ultimately paired with two much younger gliders. He is the only long-term single we know of that has not shown the other stress-related behaviors.

There is plenty of evidence that it is much easier to "bond" to gliders after they have been joined with another glider (or more).

Some long-term singles who have lost their mates or who never were introduced to other gliders are hostile towards other gliders. For example, rescue Yogi rejected as many as 20 other gliders over a year-long period. It is only in cases like these that we will adopt-out a single glider. That is only if after over a dozen attempts, the animal refuses same-species company. I carried Yogi for a year to try to calm him and desperately tried to couple him with the best, most friendly gliders. Finally, we adopted him out in the hopes that a full-time pet owner could give him what he needs. Not optimal, but the best we could do for him. I'd rather have him in a forever home than languishing in rescue.

I guess what I am saying is after the initial health check, getting them on a diet and stabilizing lone rescues, job one is to get them paired with other animals. Like, besides diet and basic health care, it is the most important thing we do for them.

We have even gone so far as to seek anti-depression medicine for Bonnie, one of our sad loner cases. There is a separate thread on that. She has been over-grooming for one year - the exact amount of time she had to be separated from her colony for safety reasons. I carry her a lot. It breaks my heart. Despite being showered with a lot of attention, it still is not enough for her.

Of course mill breeders want you to think it is OK to have just one. Because if you only have money for one they want to grub it away from you, regardless of how it will affect the animal. Consider their motivation for saying one is ok. It's pretty simple: greed.

When you've spent years having gliders and spend everyday here trying to learn and then using the new found knowledge you've gained, not only from research but from true personal experience it is hard not to get frustrated.

I have shed more tears from reading some of the most horrid stories you can imagine on this site. This is why we get frustrated. People come here and ask questions and that is good because we all want to share our personal experiences and our knowledge. We may not have gotten it from some big college. We might not have some big scientific research work we've done to prove it but what we've got is LIFE reasearch and experience. We got it from sharing our lives with Sugar Gliders. From Reading, researching, asking questions and maybe even questioning those answers but we learned and are still learning.

What is frustrating is you try to help someone who asks for help or a question they need answered and then they get mad because we don't give them the answer that THEY want to hear. It's because they are wrong.

What we do everyday because we love our babies is we have fed them and bond with them and we take them to the Vet when they need to be neutered or they are sick and even when they self mutilate and tear apart their neuter site and you sit up with them all night to distract them or you watch them play together and rub their heads all over each other and snuggle together in a pouch with a little arm around the other. How can you deny what LIFE has to teach you. What more proof do you need than people who LIVE it everyday versus the people who SELL it everyday.

If you need someone to tell you your right just because you need to feel good about yourself then you've come to the wrong place BUT if you're here because you have something to learn and in that learning you then have something to give then you are right at home, with the family that is here at Glider Gossip.

Don't throw in the towel!
Just because someone has a "degree" in something doesn't really mean they are an expert. There are people on here that have had a lot of suggies for a long time, and they are the ones I would trust over someone who went to school and learned from a book. What do they call the person who graduated last in medical school? Doctor, right? Doesn't mean they know what they are doing. BUT... the people here have dedicated a lot of time and love to their suggies and know a thing or two...
The people who post on here are passionate about their suggies. I used to think some of the people on here were downright crazy and rude, but I have learned that they are PASSIONATE about thier babies, and its hard sometimes to express that appropriately thru writing.
So please don't throw in the towel! Stay for a while, and you will become just as passionate!
Audra

And hey guys I was not trying to flaunt my degree at anyone! I did not mean if anyone took offense to that. I just know a few months back someone pulled the same stunt about "why should I listen to you?" "what makes you have authority?" and would not listen to who I call the seniors of the board (such as LuckyGlider, Kazko, Kyro, Dahlia, Goldwinger, ect.) and all of their expertise. Finally I was able to get her to talk personally to me by explaining that I am a zoologist and ethologist. I told her the same things everyone else did with the same scientific truth (pellets are not good for sapsuckers, colony behavior, ect.) but she actually listened to me because of my degree. While I love my degree and am crossing my fingers to get into graduate school for my Ph.D., there is just as much knowledge of these little guys (if not more) in being around them for so long! I can tell you how they evolved, but you old folks (lol kidding you guys!) know the ins and outs to health, diet, and behavior. So Rodney I hope you realize that while scientific data may sound convincing, real life experience often says a lot more when it comes to animals.

None Taken Filly....Not You Friend. Just saying to Rodney that you don't need a degree to be able to point out facts. Life gives you that. Experience teaches you tons if not more than scientific data can. And my post was not aimed at anyone. Just experience in a long time glider owner. Look at the experience Kazko, Eric, Kylah, Rita, Val and Ed have. I would trust that over anyone throwing what's suppose to be scientific data anyday.

Even an exotic animal expert can be wrong on some things. They may be an animal expert but they may not have the experience in the species that you have. So they would then turn to someone with knowledge of that animal. Which most likely is someone who has them. The one has the animal may not have even graduated high school or is even still in middle school. But because they have the real experience with the animal they are more knowledgerd in the animal.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying a degree is bad, or that being a high school drop out is good. I'm merely stating that just because someone has a degree does not make them the all knowing guru of gliders.

I would be more apt to accept information from the people here then i would to take it from someone who says they know a little about them. I'm going to go where the most and best information is. And that's here on glidergossip.