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valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes   USA 3479 Posts As the Keeler person points out, I have not been to his facility nor toured it. However, I would like to remind everyone of what I think are very <b>basic</b> standards for selecting a breeder: http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31104
If this breeder meets those standards - great. However, from the pictures already displayed, I'd have to say: <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Do not buy: Any sugar gliders fur that is matted looking or wet looking could be a sign of a parasite or bacterial infection. Any glider that is lethargic and not awake looking at things that are going on around them. They should be aware of movement in their area. A suggie can freeze when scared but in a few seconds to a minute will take a treat or at least be aware of their surroundings. A suggie that will not eat it’s favorite treat. A wet tail or poop that is matted to their rear end or their tail can be a sign of illness. If they are not grooming themselves. It also can mean that they are too young to be a way from the parents as they can help and teach the babies to groom themselves. Not grooming themselves properly can also be a sign of mental illness from being alone for too long. The eyes that don’t look full of life and are dull looking, blueish color, or that look infected or have a lot of gunk in them. The ears that constantly stay down and that don’t stand up when sweet talked to, or that look dry or scaley. Greasy or sticky fur can be a sign of an illness or too many gliders together in dirty conditions. Their fur should be shiny and very smooth and soft to the touch. Diet can also effect their fur quality. A skinny sugar glider where the ribs are showing and wobbly as they walk can be a sickly glider or a sign of dehydration. Any suggie that has loose or watery stools. Any poop or pee that has a very strong or foul odor. Credit: http://www.kryskritters.com/Buyer_Beware.html
& http://kozigliders.com/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Based on the standards outlined, I would have to say, this breeder would NOT be one I'd recommend. 1989jeremy Super Glider  USA 352 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sugmama</i> <br />Ok I know im a newbie but was looking at his fb page and couldn't help but notice he has only 4 happy ppl that have posted on his wall. HHHHHHMMMMMM Makes me wonder, gee why only 4 ppl. He's been at it so long he should have alot more happy ppl. Just sayin!!! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> thats what im saying and the only good reports werent even about gliders they were about other animals thats very easy to care for which he probably got the snakes in a blastic tub rack like most people do. And as for the post ear;ier talking about a pair is $150 and for 4 is $500 why such a big difference? you mine as well say you gon buy two pairs and spend $300...that price right there isnt right in my opinion i mean seriously who taught you how to be a business man??? do anybody else agree with that? <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by 1989jeremy</i> <br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sugmama</i> <br />Ok I know im a newbie but was looking at his fb page and couldn't help but notice he has only 4 happy ppl that have posted on his wall. HHHHHHMMMMMM Makes me wonder, gee why only 4 ppl. He's been at it so long he should have alot more happy ppl. Just sayin!!! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> thats what im saying and the only good reports werent even about gliders they were about other animals thats very easy to care for which he probably got the snakes in a blastic tub rack like most people do. And as for the post ear;ier talking about a pair is $150 and for 4 is $500 why such a big difference? you mine as well say you gon buy two pairs and spend $300...that price right there isnt right in my opinion i mean seriously who taught you how to be a business man??? do anybody else agree with that? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> He meant four (breeding) pairs, 8 gliders, for 500. flying_dragon Glider MI, USA 79 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I agree with checking out his facility before ruining his business. Innocent until proven guilty? I dislike the idea of anyone mistreating gliders as much as the rest of you, and i even commented and asked questions on his wall. But before ruining this business, I think we should make sure that it deserves to be taken apart. And again with the rudeness directed towards meaningless and helpful comments on here =( *sigh*<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Thanks Kendra (silkendrava), you seem to see my point perfectly. Animal abuse/cruelty makes me so mad I struggle with my self control when I encounter it. I'm sure most everyone understands the feeling here. "Innocent until proven guilty" is exactly my stance and I try to uphold this as much as humanly possible. <b>I plead with you all to be reasonable.</b> If you want to attack me for what I say, I can take it, I'm a big girl. By no means do I appreciate it, but I will stand up for those having mud slung at their faces for circumstantial evidence. I for one found it very clear in Zak's Hoobly ad that the breeders were not owned by him and were only being rehomed through him. I'm one that likes to be friends with everyone, especially those with different opinions than I (it helps me keep a balanced perspective), but I feel many of the tactics being used to attack this man, Zak, are flat out wrong and uncalled for. silkendrava Glider us 51 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by flying_dragon</i> <br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I agree with checking out his facility before ruining his business. Innocent until proven guilty? I dislike the idea of anyone mistreating gliders as much as the rest of you, and i even commented and asked questions on his wall. But before ruining this business, I think we should make sure that it deserves to be taken apart. And again with the rudeness directed towards meaningless and helpful comments on here =( *sigh*<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Thanks Kendra (silkendrava), you seem to see my point perfectly. Animal abuse/cruelty makes me so mad I struggle with my self control when I encounter it. I'm sure most everyone understands the feeling here. "Innocent until proven guilty" is exactly my stance and I try to uphold this as much as humanly possible. <b>I plead with you all to be reasonable.</b> If you want to attack me for what I say, I can take it, I'm a big girl. By no means do I appreciate it, but I will stand up for those having mud slung at their faces for circumstantial evidence. I for one found it very clear in Zak's Hoobly ad that the breeders were not owned by him and were only being rehomed through him. I'm one that likes to be friends with everyone, especially those with different opinions than I (it helps me keep a balanced perspective), but I feel many of the tactics being used to attack this man, Zak, are flat out wrong and uncalled for. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I agree with and support you completely. KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy  USA 1617 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by flying_dragon</i> <br /> I would guess that was the cage the previous breeder kept them in. I'm pretty sure he is aware gliders need bigger enclosures than that, I would think he would have informed the purchaser that they shouldn't be kept long-term in the cage they came in. I am not privy to exactly what went on, so I'm not sure, but even that is not concrete evidence yet. So far I see one person with a negative first-hand account of dealing with him, and it was only a rehoming from another location, only under his care for a very short amount of time. It appears like he rescued a bunch of breeding pairs that weren't being rehomed otherwise and would have died in misery had he not intervened. There were too many for him to care for and he knew it, and so rehomed them so they might have a chance at life. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Brittany, I truly do usually appreciate your input, but I hate how you're making him out to be a "sweetheart" because he's not. He didn't "re-home" these breeders to have a better life, he SOLD them AS breeders when they aren't even breeding material! These animals should have been sold as rescued pets and deserve TLC. Regardless if the condition they were in wasn't due to him, <i>that's not the point.</i> He sold these gliders to Jenn and who knows who else and told them that they were "PERFECT BREEDER'S, don't worry if they have missing limbs or a nipped tail, that's COMMON. These don't usually sell so KEEP THOSE AS BREEDERS AS WELL." This is NOT common nor is it normal. These sugar gliders should have been retired and fixed if they are mutilating their young constantly. You can't honestly tell me that you agree with this. There is no innocent until proven guilty here, just listen to his mindset and how he views things. This man should not be in ANY line of breeding because it would appear that he's simply in it for the money. The responses he's getting here doesn't disturb me, it's his mindset. The hate here isn't just about what he feeds, it's about what he considers OK practices that just aren't right (see above rant for an example.) Are you going to take his tour? because I am eager to hear you conclusion of it and if you wouldn't mind, could you take pictures for the rest of us to see? It's one thing to just take so ones word for it and another to see proof. As much as I would love to take your word on this, this is something a bit more serious that I would rather have proof to back up. little_jenn Glider USA 58 Posts I'm not saying he's entirely a bad man this whole thing could have been easily avoided by just telling the COMPLETE truth. I am not a confrontational person... as you can see I didn't even write a review on his fb because of it. I had text him asking him personally what was going on. Which in my opinion sounded like he just pulled some stuff out of the top of his head thinking I wouldn't comprehend it as a bunch of bull. But Someone asked my experience I gave it... Which I have never felt in any situation is wrong. And now Zak your trying to make it seem like I was the one in the wrong, the dumb one who didn't know what I was getting into (Which I DIDN'T! YOU FAILED TO MENTION THE DETAILS!!!), and you were innocent... YOU misinformed me... I understood completely. Not only did I get unhealthy gliders but now I have to pay a couple hundred dollars to fix it. I wasn't expecting the gliders to be on a perfect diet... so I DID expect maybe some cracked fur n such. I am a very understanding and patient person... But I'm not going to sit here and be walked over. These forms I was spouse to fill out, I never even knew about... I knew you needed my address which you still don't have. You had no respect for me so I don't know why I'm showing it to you.... I could inform someone about the forms, I could have asked you to pay the vet bills, I could have asked for different gliders. But no... I paid the bills... I didn't care about the papers... I could ask you what you were going to do about this situation you made for yourself... that I am not a happy customer. Like anyone would do when buying something. But no I didn't do any of that. I am content and happy taking extra care of my gliders and accepting I won't be able to have ONE joey before neutering them (because yes I admit I wanted the experience of having ONE litter of joey/s, But like everyone said they are in no condition to). I accepted all this. and never complained once. Yes I asked you about it. I then left it at that, Your answers were crap and I didn't feel the need to talk to you anymore. No I didn't see his facility and I never said anything about it. Sorry so long but this is all I am saying. Don't put words in my mouth saying I said this or that. I ONLY gave my experiences and my opinions. Get it right before you start saying things. I work 40 or more hours a day, I have a family, I'm busy, stressed and frustrated too... and this situation I just want it to clear up. I was just very disappointed, upset, sad... angry..... No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Just own up to it n make it right. valkyriemome Goofy Gorillatoes USA 3479 Posts Thank you, both Kuro and jenn for your continued input. I completely agree. Brittney- I'm not one to go on a witch hunt. In fact, I've been the subject of more than a few myself! However - this man is NOT innocent! Even his responses here and on his FaceBook page are angry and inciting. If this is an example of his customer service - that right there is enough for me to run for the hills! Explaining away mutilation as "normal" is terrifying! Jenn - you are right. You were duped. It is very sad. And, I'm also very glad these poor gliders will have a better life with you. There is NO SLIGHT intended towards you AT ALL jenn when I say: THIS is why we must encourage people to be EDUCATED! Customers should NOT be relying on the word of ANY breeder. Someone who is trying to part you from your money is NOT in the best position to tell you the complete truth! We must ALL be agents of education! We must encourage educated consumers. The winners will be the gliders! little_jenn Glider USA 58 Posts Thank you for you support everyone! I was telling a few other people, when I was eager to get myself some suggies I was doing my share of research before hand... On diet, health, special needs, cost, vets all that... But not so much on the breeders. I knew PPP was bad... I knew I needed to buy from a USDA licensed person... I was naive in this situation thinking People will just be honest... I should have asked more question. So yes it was my fault that I am in this situation and I'm paying for it. (not that I would have it any other way now because my gliders personality's and love make up for all of it!!!) But I do want to say <b><u>Proceed with Caution when dealing with this man</u></b> or other Breeders. I've learned my lesson the hard way. Which a lot people on here have seemed to gone through similar situations... with PPP or others. flying_dragon Glider MI, USA 79 Posts Life's been pretty busy the last week, I've been going through the registration and orientation of Baker College's vet tech program and it sucked up my whole week. I still intend to do the tour. If I feel it's necessary, I will ask him if he minds me taking pictures. I imagine if I showed up to one of your homes and started snapping pictures of everything, you wouldn't find it courteous :) I know I sure wouldn't. Especially because we still have some moving boxes laying in some of the corners and it does not look like an amazing home yet, lol. My poor Ty (bearded dragon) has to have his enclosure on an office desk (takes up the whole darn thing). We really need to get him a good stand! <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Even his responses here and on his FaceBook page are angry and inciting.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I haven't found Zak's responses angry or inciting. I'm really glad that little_jenn's gliders are on the road to a better life and home all the other pairs are fairing just as well. If anything was said about tails or limbs being nipped being normal, it could have been in the context of the conditions they were kept in. I it no where claimed by him that joey mutilation is normal for a healthy glider. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Brittany, I truly do usually appreciate your input, but I hate how you're making him out to be a "sweetheart" because he's not.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> KuroNeko, I regret you don't approve of my attempt at defending Zak. I may be missing it, but where does Zak say they are "PERFECT BREEDER'S, don't worry if they have missing limbs or a nipped tail, that's COMMON. These don't usually sell so KEEP THOSE AS BREEDERS AS WELL."? This thread is getting so long I'm having trouble keeping track of everything everyone is saying. Again, little_jenn you've done a great thing by giving a nice home to these gliders that came from an unfortunate situation. Thanks for being awesome! Is $150 a terrible fee for rehoming these two gliders? I don't have the experience of homing or rehoming gliders, so I don't know what's actually considered fair. This is one lady I considered getting rescue gliders from. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">3 year old standard grey pair, ready on Feb 11, 2011 - $ 250 (Waterford, MI, 48328) Seller Info: AvasMommy | Send Email | Send PM Posted on Jan 06 2011 at 09:17:03 PM divider Zues and Hera are three years old. They are standard grey sugar gliders. I got them back in August from a young lady who could no longer keep them. They were bought from breeders. I did not get their pedigrees. I am in the process of getting my usda license. I never planed to keep the pair. However I coudln''t rehome them once their first set of twins came oop, and then she got prego before I could find someone experienced with babies. She just had two more babies oop Dec 17 and they will be ready on Feb 11. They are for sale again. I am asking a $100 non-fundable deposit to hold them until Feb. They will be coming with their cage, wheel, pouches, toys, monkey biscuits and anything else I have for them. They are currently eating the bml mix. I am asking $300 for the pair. I can have dad neutered if you would like. If you want just the pair it will be $250. I do require you to sign my contract. It will give you a 72 hour health gurantee and it also states that if for any reason you much rehome them you have to contact me first. I would like to know where my gliders are going. Email for any details I may not have covered. Thank you! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I originally found her on Hoobly through an individual on this forum, she then posted in the classifieds here. She was very friendly and answered all my questions about them. I felt she had good business practices and even sweetened the deal by offering them for $50 less if the buyer wanted to get the male neutered. Still, she was charging $250-300 without pedigrees. I'd like to remind you that she did not have 50 pairs to rehome like Zak did and therefore could put more time into revitalizing them since she only had one. Every time I've been on the phone with Zak, he's answered my questions very well. I have zero experience with USDA forms, could someone who has a USDA license tell me how this form is used? Do you file these forms for every sale you make? Is that what you're supposed to do, even in a rehoming situation? If you were a breeder who lived less than 2 hours from me and saw someone throwing mud at you (and you offered them phone conversations to clear up the confusion AND offered a tour of your suggies' room) I would defend you, too, until substantial evidence was produced that your suggies are in sub-par condition and you don't give the new owner good information about their new pet(s). I would take up your offer to see your place and see for myself any evidence of good practices and/or bad practices. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">THIS is why we must encourage people to be EDUCATED! Customers should NOT be relying on the word of ANY breeder. Someone who is trying to part you from your money is NOT in the best position to tell you the complete truth! We must ALL be agents of education! We must encourage educated consumers. The winners will be the gliders!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I very much agree with valkyriemome in that accurate education about all species kept as pets should be top priority for all animal lovers who have the time to do so. It is one's personal responsibility to know what is good for the welfare of your future pet, not necessarily the breeder's (though it's great/ideal when the breeder knows a ton about the animal they sell). little_jenn Glider USA 58 Posts "PERFECT BREEDER'S, don't worry if they have missing limbs or a nipped tail, that's COMMON. These don't usually sell so KEEP THOSE AS BREEDERS AS WELL." I have text messages Between Zak and Me (This is our full convo... everything here I quote) We got them on thanksgiving, we met outside of Detroit... (I live in Kalamazoo which is about 3 hours from Temp. Michigan... He was in the area and I was in Detroit for the thanksgiving football game so he agreed to meet up with me. after a few days of leaving them alone I brought them out for the first bathroom time. That's when I noticed The leg of the girl. (I had already noticed the tails of the others prior to playtime) So I texted him Dec. 1st. <b>Me-</b> I was going to write you on facebook but felt this will be more appropriate. what diet were you feeding the gliders? Because the ones you sold me are in poor condition. One I believe has hlp because she has no use of one foot. 2 others tails are horrible looking. I know the trip was stressful for them but looks like it was going on for some time.<s><i><b>THIS IS NOT IN TEXT</b> but side note detroit is about a 2 hour drive but where we met it was about 1hr 30mins</i></s> i was trying to figure out what to do about this situation. The cage was too small for 4 as well and you should know that. So I'm building them one.. so that's not the concern but I am not pleased <b>ZAK-</b> i'm sorry who is this <b>ME-</b> Jennifer. I met you on thanksgiving? Which I greatly appreciated but I am concerned <b>ZAK-</b>the gliders you got were breeders not pet quality. thats why they have problems with their tails and stuff <b> ME-</b> well you failed to mention what quality of gliders they were. i just thought i was getting 2 pairs of gliders. I didn't think i was getting ones in poor condition. I'm not trying to sound rude at all so sorry if it does seem that way I just.. <b> ZAK-</b> <i>the gliders are completely healthy. when you breed sugar gliders you get babies that are missing tail or limb from time to time. most people don't want them as pets so you keep them as breeders</i> <b>ME-</b> will she be able to use her leg again? will their tails grow back? so your saying they will be okay? I won't need to take them to a vet? Sorry I'm just worried, If they had babies will they be deformed? and being that they are born this way does it mean they are imbread? <b> ZAK-</b> their tails will not grow back but nipped tails are very common. They do not need to see a vet. they are not deformed. all this happened after they were born when they were only a half inch big and that was that....
KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1617 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by flying_dragon</i> <br /> KuroNeko, I regret you don't approve of my attempt at defending Zak. I may be missing it, but where does Zak say they are "PERFECT BREEDER'S, don't worry if they have missing limbs or a nipped tail, that's COMMON. These don't usually sell so KEEP THOSE AS BREEDERS AS WELL."? This thread is getting so long I'm having trouble keeping track of everything everyone is saying. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> It's a couple of pages back, but Jenn was nice enough to quote it once more two comments above this one. flying_dragon Glider MI, USA 79 Posts Alden, that's very admirable that you rehome gliders for free. All the rescues I could find cost $250 or more (most of them didn't mention vet bills having anything to do with the fee). Or if they were less, I would have had to drive over two days just to get to their location and two days to get back home. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">question is did they ever go to a vet since its so many of them???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Which "they" are you referring to? Are you asking if Zak takes his personal glider pairs to the vet? Well, he says his regular inspector is a Toledo Zoo vet. I'm sure if you called and asked him, he would tell you what his gliders' medical care is like. He only has 15 pairs plus the joeys they produce until they are ready for new homes.
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