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flying_dragon Glider   MI, USA 79 Posts Look guys, I live about an hour and a half away from Zak. I will take up his offer to tour his facility. As much as I like to take people for their word, the anonymous account and other testimonial aren't enough to convince me Zak is a questionable breeder. In my opinion, his operation is quite small compared to others I've looked into. <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I don't need to come to MI to see that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> If someone invites you (knowing full well of your high standards) and you throw it back in their face, I see it as quite foolish. You're (Kozi) about six hours away from Zak's, which I'm sure isn't as far as some have traveled for a sugar glider on this forum. On another note, the point isn't really that USDA prevents every glider from having a bad quality of life. I laugh/weep for those who trust a government agency to be able to pull off something like that. It's the fact that it is illegal to breed and sell gliders on the scale that some of you do without the license. If you're in progress of getting your license and fully plan on obtaining it soon, good. He attempted to answer most of your points and questions, and told you he can better answer all your concerns by phoning him or personally visiting his facility. I don't see PPP doing that (the outfit you compare him to). It makes him by far look more reasonable than yourself. In fact, throwing rocks from afar and refusing his offer makes you look like a (please forgive me) coward. Many of you here profit from selling gliders and glider supplies. One of the attacks is because he sells animals as a way to make a living. This seems hypocritical to me. Yeah, another ridiculously long post. I'll let you all know how my tour goes. flying_dragon Glider MI, USA 79 Posts edit: <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'll probably be checking in a few more times before I'm gone for good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I guess it's hard to leave, valkyrie, lol. I will move on after this matter is cleared up, I'll try to hold myself to that. You've misread my post, I wasn't implying you were saying breeding suggies is bad, I was referring to the comment made about questioning his living as a breeder since he doesn't have public all the answers to the questions he's being asked. I probably worded it poorly, I apologize. I'm also not trying to "spit" on anyone  I was saying that Kozi is attacking Zak unfairly in some of her comments. I'm sure she cares amazingly for her gliders and all of you that care for rescues, I applaud. I'm saying, that testimonial isn't necessarily true and it could be exaggerated. Have you ever had someone come against you with unfair accusations? One post on a message board doesn't make their word gold (IMO). I, again, state I want to see the condition of his gliders and how they're with my own eyes. I've never been a fan of a mudslinging fest and prefer to see substantial evidence and not base a conclusion on a couple of peoples' words. For that matter, you don't have to take my word for anything. You have never met me and don't have much of a clue of my real character. I could be nothing more than a scummy person trying to piss you off, for all you know. I can assure you that isn't true and wish this whole board could talk to each other over coffee and get to know each other. I hope for the sake of the animals I do enjoy the tour. I will be very sad and disappointed if these accusations do turn out to be true, but at least I'll know. I'm sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent. Please try to see the well-meaning I have in giving this man a chance before raining judgment on him. My search is one for the truth. No need to be sorry, I'm sorry for ALL his animals. I'm just happy I got these four and can give them such a better life. I've had them for a little over a month. Put them on HLP with added calcium. I give them superworms a few times a week and yoggies ever other day. The color of their fur has completely changed. I was told all four were cinnamon color. 2 are standard greys with no confusion. The other two are definitely cinnamon... I'm starting to think the male is a lion head cinnamon? I could be wrong because I'm not quite positive what lion head is. Their fur is much more fuller, cracks fading, their tails are not completely full yet but I heard it takes some time in some cases. Their tails could be just getting fuller but it does seem some of the hair on the wounded tails is coming back. My little girls condition with her leg hasn't changed much... but does NOT slow her down =) They are just as sweet as any other gliders... they are just my little rescuers. I've learned my lesson about people like him. I've kept an eye on him ever since. He even had an add on hoobly selling 25 pairs of gliders for $2000... and he had adds for other things like pairs of gliders, joey and such... so he has well over 50 gliders... along with other animals.... NO ONE can properly take care of that many animals... specially exotic ones... they are not dogs n cat they have special needs (not that dogs and cats are any different they don't deserve horrible treatment either) I've warned a few people when I saw them posting on his facebook. But that's all I can really do. spread the word. I have yet to post updated pictures of them but you can tell a difference in the appearance of the fur alone... that they were not properly cared for/feed. Kozi Fuzzy Wuzzy   WI, USA 1278 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KuroNeko</i> <br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Anonymous</i> <br /> I've had them for a little over a month. Put them on HLP with added calcium. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I think you mean HPW  <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Probably.. :o IF talking about HLP and HPW I'm assuming you could get confused. xD; silkendrava Glider us 51 Posts I agree with checking out his facility before ruining his business. Innocent until proven guilty? I dislike the idea of anyone mistreating gliders as much as the rest of you, and i even commented and asked questions on his wall. But before ruining this business, I think we should make sure that it deserves to be taken apart. And again with the rudeness directed towards meaningless and helpful comments on here =( *sigh* evenkeelexotics1 Starting Member 1 Posts Anonymous- I know exactly who you are and I remember texting you and talking to my wife saying that you were going to be problems be cause you didn't understand what you were getting into. You bought 4 gliders off of me. I explained to you that they were adults and had been kept as breeders. In October I acquired a large amount of adult sugar gliders from a breeder I knew. He had a stroke and could not care for them. I took in the gliders but was unequipped to deal with the amount of gliders. I spent over 5 hours a day caring for them and I worked around the clock finding them new homes. Many of them had nipped tails and some even had missing limbs but they were all healthy and active. I rehomed all of them, many to breeder and some to individuals. You were the only one who ever complained. To the rest- I understand your concern. I do not like to see the mistreatment of animals and out of all the comments on here only one person has actually bought a glider off of me. Check my facebook. You will see dozens of people who were more than happy with their experience. I am USDA licensed. From what I have read, many people on here do not think that counts for much but I assure you they are on top of it. Also my attending vet was the head vet of the Toledo Zoo for over 20 years. He knows more than the rest of us and he has personally signed off on my diet and care. This is what I do for a living and I take it very serious. If I miss treat any animals the USDA would shut me down and take all of my animals. I take great pride in my business and animals. There is nothing hidden at my location and anyone who comes to get an animals sees everything. I am not this giant sugar gliders mill. I have a small amount of animals; they are all housed in an addition off the side of my house. This is a family business and my kids play with them daily. No one adding to this post has actually seen my location or the diet I feed my gliders so everything on here is assumed, rumors or lies. Again if anyone would like to come see my location I am an open door. If anyone wants to call with concerns my number is 419-202-1903. Get the info from the source. Right or wrong I know what I do better than anyone. Many people have stated that my facebook is misleading. Understand that my facebook is not meant to be an informative site. I use it as a tool to have people contact me. I have two kids and much of my time is spend running them around so it is hard for me to find a large amount of time in front of the computer. Much of what I do is over the phone or in person. Again, I understand your concerns and in implore you to look into me but do it in a appropriate and professional way. These are pictures taken of the gliders when I got them The cage given to me with the four gliders... I had put all the toys n such in there until I built them a new cage. and bought them toys 
This is a picture of one set of gliders 
This is just a closer look at one of the gliders 
This is a picture of the little girls tail 
I'll post some pictures tonight when I get home of what they look like now. little_jenn Glider USA 58 Posts I had a feeling you'd know who I was once I talked about my experience with you.... specially the texts... which were misleading and sounded like some bull you made up to justify the whole situation. Which I talked to my husband about. I was very aware of what I was getting into. I had no problems they were ADULT gliders. I was very aware of this... and was ready for the responsiblity, time and effort I was going to have to put into the gliders. I knew they had been kept as breeders. But that doesn't explain why they were in bad health, nipped tails... bad leg ect. You also did not mention what "quality" glider I was getting. To me gliders are gliders... breeders or not I would think they should be treat the same. Actually being breeders I would think you would take better care of them... the fact they are caring young. FYI when I called I said I saw your add on hoobly that you had 2pairs of gliders plus cage so I called. Yes you explained they were breeders... they were cinnamon colors... and that they were approx. 3yrs old that was pretty much it. Short and sweet. I called again, asked if we could meet. you said yes. Which was great. We met up. gave you the money, You gave me the gliders. You said text me your address when you can. That you needed it for the USDA... and that was that. (it was cold, dark and snowy but) If you felt I wasn't understanding of the whole thing... why would you sell them to me... and why were you so short? on the phone or in person... You could have explained more on the phone if you felt that way. Granted yes, when I asked you about it via text you were very quick to respond back with your justification and I assume if anyone had a question about the care you would answer them with what you believed was accurate. Maybe breeders see gliders differently then I do and don't care or won't say anything but I felt I should. I wasn't going to keep my mouth shut on something I felt was wrong.
"You said text me your address when you can. That you needed it for the USDA... and that was that." THAT is the biggest tip-off yet. We got our paperwork.. and there are forms a buyer needs to fill out/sign when purchasing from someone with a license. Has to be kept for ALL the suggies he sells. Sounds like he's not keeping up with USDA rules if he's trying to get your info after the fact. I'm pretty damn POSITIVE you have SIGN that form in PERSON... I'd file a personal complaint with the USDA if I were you. USDA says "when delivery is made" those forms need to be filled out/signed in full. You also get the chance to select a box at the bottom of the 'delivery' form, your options are "in apparent good condition", "poor condition", "rejected (attach explanation for rejection)". Number 15 is total number recieved(this is all to be filled out by the buyer receiver, NOT BY HIM!) Number 16 is the number of animals dead, Number 17 is the number of animals alive, 18 is signature, 19 is your title and 20 is the date of purchase. The form says all over, TO BE FILLED OUT BY BUYER. "Failure to maintain this record can result in suspension or revocation of license and/or imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine of not more than $1000 or both." www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/forms/aph7020.pdf
Here is the form, you can see it yourself. The USDA requires everyone licensed to use these for each sale. Edit: "Maybe breeders see gliders differently then I do and don't care or won't say anything but I felt I should. I wasn't going to keep my mouth shut on something I felt was wrong." Not true. NONE of our suggies have nipped their babies tails, none have had HLP/been 'born' with it, none have been missing any feet/limbs and none have fur missing on their tails. This is ALL poor care/due to neglect. (I do have one girl, an adult and not bred, who's mommy nipped her tail, it was her first litter.. but that is the first glider I personally owned with that type of tail and of all our litters nothing has EVER been 'nipped' off.) @Keel Agreed, you pull this out after the fact. "I know exactly who you are and I remember texting you and talking to my wife saying that you were going to be problems be cause you didn't understand what you were getting into." Then WHY did you allow suggies to go home with someone you had not properly informed/discussed this with? That is bad on YOUR part! Essika Face Hugger ON, CA 581 Posts I would <i><b>LOVE</b></i> to see proof of this man's licensing as well as proof of vet checks and fecal floats and smears for all his animals. Also, Zak... if you don't have time to answer questions online, how is it you've had the time to make 2 different accounts? (Nevermind writing out long drawn out posts where you don't answer anything.) As for it being okay for "Breeding" animals to be in rotten condition, thats ridiculous... Breeders can be pets as well... and either ways they should be treated like gold. They should be in exceptional health ESPECIALLY if they are breeding. We now have photo proof that you're animals are given to people in crap condition... Not to mention you say the "optimal" time for bonding is 8-12 weeks?! Puh-lease! I have 3 gliders (4 before the diet you recommended cause my Nova to die.) and they have all been over a year old and bonded just fine. I've been bit a total of twice. Ever. Your treatment of animals is disgusting and you can only hope to have a couple customers left after we get through with you. @Dragon, you can check it out... but his diet says enough for me. Plus if you plan a visit, it's likely he'll clean up. We now have photo proof of his lack of care for his animals. Not to mention he hasn't provided any evidence of anything else... Zak- take some pictures of your setups, some of your gliders and I would love to see some of your records of vet visits and USDA licensing. I forgot to mention this before.... after seeing the cage set up she had, breeders.... right? I'd be curious if all of his breeders are set up in cages like this. HONESTLY, I can say for a fact I bet you they are now that I think about it. This guy was the one selling 30 cinnys on craigslist. Well I texted him out of curiosity. He told me all of the suggies were in side-by-side cages, so if you wanted one pair you need your own cage, if you wanted a cage you'd have to buy suggies in pairs from him. This fits the bill perfectly, the cages are split in half. (I feel bad for the breeding pairs... you have to have cages a decent space apart, males can be so territorial... Imagine how they would act.. SEEING, SMELLING and practically living together, two unneutered males. Poor damn suggies...) Go see his place, I bet you that cage she got is how he houses his breeding pairs. Yes, I've still got it. It's still in my text history. <b>Him: Pairs are 150 each, or 4 for 500. Me: Will they have a cage of some sort? Him: They are in divided cages. If you buy even pairs then they will come with there cage. If you buy 8 it will come with the rack. Me: Do they have lineage or any kind of records? Him: I didn't keep that great of records, sorry.</b> KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy  USA 1617 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by evenkeelexotics1</i> <br />Anonymous- I know exactly who you are and I remember texting you and talking to my wife saying that you were going to be problems be cause you didn't understand what you were getting into. You bought 4 gliders off of me. I explained to you that they were adults and had been kept as breeders. In October I acquired a large amount of adult sugar gliders from a breeder I knew. He had a stroke and could not care for them. I took in the gliders but was unequipped to deal with the amount of gliders. I spent over 5 hours a day caring for them and I worked around the clock finding them new homes. Many of them had nipped tails and some even had missing limbs but they were all healthy and active. I rehomed all of them, many to breeder and some to individuals. You were the only one who ever complained. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> You are sick in the head! Who in their right might would breed and sell animals in this condition?! Who gives a crap if they didn't complain they are probably just as ruthless as you and trying to make money! My posts are usually level-headed, but this just blew me away. You are a sick man. I truly would hate to see what you consider "breeders" in your house. The gliders you sold to that girls should have been sold as RESCUES and definitely not the price you sold them at. <b>You are sick</b>. Once more, WHERE IS YOUR LINEAGE?! KuroNeko Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1617 Posts <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by valkyriemome</i> <br />Ok - wait a minute - I'm all for watching a scammer / mill breeder / animal abuser. But - be fair. Did he ever tell you that he was rehoming gliders he got from somewhere else? If those gliders were passing through his home after he obtained them from another breeder, he isn't responsible for their condition. The same cannot be said of gliders currently in his care, or the gliders he uses for breeders now. However, the gliders in those pictures he says weren't *his* for long. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> But Alden, he sold them AS breeders. This doesn't show he has any standards for what sugar gliders should be breeders and what shouldn't  Regardless if they were in his care long or not, would you have sold those saying they would be fine as breeders? Or would you say they would be in the rescue category?
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and its going very well 
and i have a ton of free time.