I have not read the entire thread, nor do I have the want to read through it. Lots of negativity, lol. I will say though, that even though it works for many people, as there ARE different methods of doing nearly everything, I don't agree with it...

It took me nearly three years to successfully introduce four gliders (two pairs) to one another. It was a long time, yes, but I was patient for it and in the end, it paid off. I now have a quad of boys as of this year, because I was patient and went with it on their terms.

I'm not going to bash either side of it, just wanted to add my opinion. :)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catman

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoopy86406

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catman

What happens in Australia when it rains for a few days in a row?
Gliders get WET.

---

Excuse me, but these animals have never lived in Australia. The ones we have in our homes now, are used to central heat and air. They have never gotten wet. They are not used to rain. When was the last time you left your glider in the rain.

Let's use some common sense here.

---

Last summer in the tent outside I unzipped one of the flaps to let rain come in,they didnt seem to care.

Of course they are not used to getting wet from the rain in captivity but they are not going to melt if they get wet. Would it be abuse if a zoo installed sprinklers in an exhibit to mimic its natural habitat? Cats aren't use to water and people wash them all the time.Is that abuse abuse?

---

Don'tcha think that's a little bit different than forcing them into a small cage and spraying them with water?

<quote> The only thing all this whining, bitching, moaning, screaming, condescending and fighting has done has caused people to petition and try to get a RESCUE shut down? Impressive. I wish this "passion" and energy were around all the time in the areas it's so desperately needed.</quote>

So anytime we'd like to get started on the bad guys, that would be great.

I ask the same question I asked earlier in the thread..

Those that support this method in any way, how would you feel if it were a newcomer, or PPP doing this (instead of Ed and Kazko)? Would it still be okay, no big deal? Or would it be abuse then?

Shadow? Catman? Span? ..anyone?

If a newcomer tried this method FIRST without doing the research that both Ed and Kazko have done then yes, it would cause a problem. This method should be used as a last resort. Which IS stated somewhere in this thread. Arguing doesn't help. The facts that people need to see are getting lost in all of the BS. No one is going to "give up" their opinion on this, and fighting is not going to change that. As you can tell since this is now on the sixth page and no one has "won". JMO.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kyro298

quote:

---

Originally posted by wildlifeangel
The method is cruel... and there are people currently looking into getting your 501-3c stripped from you, as cruelty is NOT acceptable.

---

Wow, really!? Now this "community" is going to try to take down a legitimate rescue?? MY GOD...we were just told not that long ago that although we may not agree with VIRGIL KLUNDER and his business practices, he is still a good PERSON. Can someone sit here and honestly say Ed is not a good person?! Now he's going to be lynched while people like Virgil get cut slack? This is the most pathetic thing I've ever seen come out of this community. I remember reading something to the effect that until we've met Virgil in person and looked him in the eye, we wouldn't understand that he is a real person, with real feelings, a real family and a genuinely caring person. I've met Ed, sat down with him and had a real conversation face to face...have you?? In 4 years...4 YEARS...and being here almost every single day. THIS is the first time EVER I've been in tears. NO EXAGGERATION! The good Ed and Gail HAVE done is suddenly NOTHING? He's done more than almost every person here screaming "off with his head!" The only thing all this whining, bitching, moaning, screaming, condescending and fighting has done has caused people to petition and try to get a RESCUE shut down? Impressive. I wish this "passion" and energy were around all the time in the areas it's so desperately needed.

Do I agree with the "method"? No! Would I recommend it to someone? No! Do I hate Ed now? HELL NO! Are you seriously saying shutting him down would be a BENEFIT?!

For all of you using the "how dare you let newbies think this is OK", get your asses over to this forum on a regular basis and HELP OUT FOR GOD'S SAKE. YOU BE HERE AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THE PROPER WAY YOU THINK INTROS SHOULD BE DONE. YOU BE HERE WITH NEW PEOPLE JOINING IN DROVES AND HELP OUT! Maybe you would have been able to offer alternatives to people desperate to try anything to get their gliders together. After all, we preach and preach about how they HAVE to be together since they're colony animals. Your stupid ass personality clashes and stubbornness benefits who again? It sure as HELL is not the newbies, not the gliders and most certainly not this community. It's a shame how hypocrisy runs rampant in this so-called community as well. THAT's what makes me sick to MY stomach. GG is the redheaded step-child forum online because you've all allowed it to be that way. I'm so sick of tip-toeing around on other forums so as not to be blacklisted but you know what? I don't care anymore. You are out of line trying to get Ed's license "stripped". It's going TOO far.

You don't agree with this method? FINE! WE GET IT! Be constructive and EDUCATE about your reasoning then. Do you realize he's the only one that CALMLY responds? Who do you think people will naturally WANT to take advice from?

You'll spend ALL DAY on here arguing until your blue in the face. How many other threads did you respond to while you were here trying to help out and offer your opinions and "expertise"? Just wondering...

Yep, Kylah finally snapped!

---

My thoughts exactly, Kylah! When I saw that I pulled up the thread on glider central and sure enough! They are trying to get his licensed pulled and they are getting the representatives of the millbreeder project involved too!

Fricken ASTONISHES me how can you put so much effort into bring someone who has done good in the glider community, when that energy could have been put toward mill breeders.

Fricken amazing. Great job everyone! Glad to see you've got your priorities straight.

well for one thing this method shouldnt have been posted in the sugarglider forum its not kazko thats doing it. he put it in his journal has EVERYONE read from that and not just go from what they hear or read from another place (and that means people on GC as well). not much attention is payed toward the journals or at least commented on and once it gets off the home page it will just disappear. i know ppp is bad so why would i even bother to say anything good toward them or whatever. they wouldnt waste time doing this they just want to sell the gliders and get the money. i could care less about this method i just hate seeing people being mean to ed when he is a good person who gives gliders homes. does he have a history of doing something bad? or is this the first time? so i guess everyone needs to be paranoid about every little thing they do because it could make people lose faith in them. lets not try anything new or different lets just stick to what we know and not do anything that could at some point result in a new way of doing things. (not saying thats where this intro is going but whatever all everyone is doing is saying things over and over again)

Guys, while I'm sorry this has gotten so heated and it saddens us that we have polarized the community and some of our old friends, we are still advocating this method if the circumstances call for it. We still care about all of you and of course the animals and beg you to treat us in good faith and extend the benefit of doubt to us. We try a lot of things to benefit the gliders and share them with you to help you all decide and learn. You don't have to like everything we do.

We have even tried chlomipramine (with vet supervision) on gliders to keep them from over-grooming. We feel like we have done it all. Besides malnutrition, the one of the biggest problems we have are the side-effects of being alone as a glider.

So because this method can work in certain circumstances, and because we have "tried it all" we felt compelled to share our experience knowing full well it may be controversial.

For those of you who want to conduct a mature and logical conversation about it, I am up for it. But for now I will simply memorialize our position the best I can for you all to judge us as you may.

We can justify what we are doing on moral grounds. How? Because abusive is allowing a single glider to languish, get depressed and hurt itself. Especially ones who over-groom and self-mutilate. This method, in some circumstances, can solve that. That's not abusive. That's improving the quality of life for the animal.

Until you have seen our operation, met the animals and review our medical records, you don't have a grasp of the magnitude of the problem dealing with single gliders who are hurting. Until you have dealt with that first hand (and not just with one pet) your perspective is somewhat limited. Not until someone has the guts to share their methods and post them is your perspective enabled to grow based on others' experiences. No amount of holding and cuddling a single, who clearly needs more care than a colony animal, is going to truly solve the problem.

There are few facts I would like to point out as an answer to some of the more random comments and then a few thoughts on animal abuse.

First a few facts:

1. My wife Gail is the full-time director of LGRS. That means it's her full time job. I support that financially with my job and we also get donations. Someone said that we are handling too many gliders. Well, if Gail were not a full time volunteer with her life dedicated to the animals, that may be true. But she is 100% dedicated. It's what she does "for a living." I help out with correspondence and fund raising. Before I go to work, I care for the ranch animals and again when I come home. We also have volunteers come twice a week to help us with cage cleaning and food prep. Our goal is to rescue, rehabilitate and adopt out healthy pets. A few are in sanctuary care. So before you judge and say we are handling too many pets - understand the facts. The only reason we have "too many" or any other rescue has "too many" is because we can't keep up with the greed of the breeders who tell lies about gliders in order to sell them. It's all the lies that create a situation where people are at our doorstep surrendering animals. So if you want to complain about who has "too many" animals talk to the people who have a thousand or more breeding pairs in tiny cube cages nailed to the wall. Really.

2. Over the years, we have experimented with different introduction techniques. We have published those. So now we are publishing our experiences with OUR VERSION of the "wet" one. Our resolve to share our experiences with the community has not changed, even with this controversy. Look, we have developed and practice all of the known techniques. This one is an alternative if other techniques fail.

We have also published information on breeders' lies, ratios, diet and all kinds of things. When you publish things, you will always have people who sit back and judge you - people who make no contribution to the community whatsoever except to cause trouble. And of course there are people who also contribute but simply don't agree with us on certain things. That's OK. We care about them all and everyone deserves to voice their opinion, because this is America and this is a public forum.

3. We do not advocate spraying them down with a shower. We do not do that. Instead, for the four individuals we have tried this on, I have cupped them in my hand and rubbed the tepid water onto them gently.

4. We have gotten numerous gliders soaking wet as a result of hydrotherapy treatments for open wounds. Them being wet does not hurt them. Repeat: It does not hurt them.

5. The mouthwash thing. Not alcohol-based mouthwash. no-sting mouthwash does not hurt them. It just helps to mask scent for a few hours.

Now a few thoughts on animal abuse:

Animal abuse: Hitting, striking, whipping, jabbing, stabbing
Animal abuse: Neglecting their nutritional needs
Animal abuse: Neglecting their medical needs
Animal abuse: Constant forced breeding which shortens their life
Animal abuse: Keeping them in tiny cage with no toys or protection
Animal abuse: Allowing constant extreme temperatures
Animal abuse: Allowing ongoing painful suffering
Animal abuse: Forcing single gliders to live alone
Animal abuse: Shipping them when you have no clue if there is a plane delay, etc. if they will sit in a hot or cold plane belly and die
Animal abuse: Exhausting animals with chores and work that hurts them
Animal abuse: Tight pens and force-feeding to fatten them for commercial gain
Animal abuse: Forcing them to cannibalize each other with illegal feeds
Animal abuse: Allowing them to fight without separating them
Animal Abuse: Forcing them to fight for sport
Animal abuse: Leashes or other restraints for long periods unless by medical order
Animal Abuse: Allowing an animal to self-mutilate or over-groom and not doing anything about it

NOT Animal abuse: Getting them wet for a few hours in order to improve the quality of their lives.
NOT Animal abuse: Immobilizing them to cut their nails
NOT Animal abuse: Neutering them so they don't procreate
NOT Animal abuse: Culling out fighters into separate cages

So there is our list.


For and in our judgment, it's about quality of life. That's what we strive for. This is a controversial method, but in some circumstances, we advocate it in order to improve their quality of life.


Improving the quality of life of these animals is not abusive. Not doing something to improve their quality of life is what's abusive.



By the way, Dizzy has stopped pulling out her own fur. Think about that.

OK. I just caught up here and haven't read anything on GC yet. I've already stated that I do not agree with this method at all and I've stated MY reasons why so I'm not repeating all that, but I do want to say a few things:

For there to be ANY talk of causing problems for Ed and Gail and their organization is ridiculous. While I do wish they, as a rescue, would not publicly endorse this (because I do believe many folks will pay more attention to what rescuers and breeders advise), they have explained why they feel it's OK. That tells me that they have thought their actions through and are not blindly following anything. The problem is that many people who come to the forums will not think before acting. That is what we are afraid of. Ed and Gail have an established organization which is a great source of help. It's fine for people to disagree with their actions regarding this, but it is NOT OK to go after their organization. That is uncalled for.

Also, there is no reason for anyone to be called stupid or idiots or anything else. People can, and should, express their feelings but this needs to stay about gliders.

To go after an organization for this, do you bozos have nothing better to do with your lives? Please go get lives and do something really constructive like help the other Americans that live in this country find a job and get off the shut down an organization bull. I've seen that about PP for quite sometime and they still are in business. I am not aiming this at everyone on this post, just those rasing a ruckus about shutting down someone because they did something they did not like. Geez, get over it and get on with other info for new glider owners instead of just showing them a bunch of bickering. Okay, done, said my piece, will not respond so do not try to get anything further.

Here's my opinion If you dont like the method DONT USE IT.

If you don't like the diet don't use it!

If you don't like the cage Don't use it!

If you look at it this way all of these animals should be in the wild in their own colony's where they can take care of themselves but that can't happen just as it can't happen with every other domesticated animal.

gliders die from the stress of being taken to a new home, is that to say it is abuse to bring them to a new home. The plain and simple fact is the info is put out by a very reputable person who has had much personal success with it not someone new to gliders. they are ultimately your gliders and you need to do what you feel is right.

quote:

---

quote:
Originally posted by wildlifeangel
The method is cruel... and there are people currently looking into getting your 501-3c stripped from you, as cruelty is NOT acceptable.


Wow, really!? Now this "community" is going to try to take down a legitimate rescue?? MY GOD...we were just told not that long ago that although we may not agree with VIRGIL KLUNDER and his business practices, he is still a good PERSON. Can someone sit here and honestly say Ed is not a good person?! Now he's going to be lynched while people like Virgil get cut slack? This is the most pathetic thing I've ever seen come out of this community. I remember reading something to the effect that until we've met Virgil in person and looked him in the eye, we wouldn't understand that he is a real person, with real feelings, a real family and a genuinely caring person. I've met Ed, sat down with him and had a real conversation face to face...have you?? In 4 years...4 YEARS...and being here almost every single day. THIS is the first time EVER I've been in tears. NO EXAGGERATION! The good Ed and Gail HAVE done is suddenly NOTHING? He's done more than almost every person here screaming "off with his head!" The only thing all this whining, bitching, moaning, screaming, condescending and fighting has done has caused people to petition and try to get a RESCUE shut down? Impressive. I wish this "passion" and energy were around all the time in the areas it's so desperately needed.

Do I agree with the "method"? No! Would I recommend it to someone? No! Do I hate Ed now? HELL NO! Are you seriously saying shutting him down would be a BENEFIT?!

For all of you using the "how dare you let newbies think this is OK", get your asses over to this forum on a regular basis and HELP OUT FOR GOD'S SAKE. YOU BE HERE AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THE PROPER WAY YOU THINK INTROS SHOULD BE DONE. YOU BE HERE WITH NEW PEOPLE JOINING IN DROVES AND HELP OUT! Maybe you would have been able to offer alternatives to people desperate to try anything to get their gliders together. After all, we preach and preach about how they HAVE to be together since they're colony animals. Your stupid ass personality clashes and stubbornness benefits who again? It sure as HELL is not the newbies, not the gliders and most certainly not this community. It's a shame how hypocrisy runs rampant in this so-called community as well. THAT's what makes me sick to MY stomach. GG is the redheaded step-child forum online because you've all allowed it to be that way. I'm so sick of tip-toeing around on other forums so as not to be blacklisted but you know what? I don't care anymore. You are out of line trying to get Ed's license "stripped". It's going TOO far.

You don't agree with this method? FINE! WE GET IT! Be constructive and EDUCATE about your reasoning then. Do you realize he's the only one that CALMLY responds? Who do you think people will naturally WANT to take advice from?

You'll spend ALL DAY on here arguing until your blue in the face. How many other threads did you respond to while you were here trying to help out and offer your opinions and "expertise"? Just wondering...

Yep, Kylah finally snapped!

...and let's just be FAIR to people that do not know Ed. He has contributed PLENTY to this community. Here's a thread where he outlines his recommendations for intros:

www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_I...

He put this info out for the general public:

www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_I...

Learn more about him before judging him as all the wonderful names I've seen described for him here and elsewhere:

www.sugarglider.com/journal/LuckyGlider/LGRS_LINKS...

By all means, this is a person we should have ousted from this community!

---

I totally agree with this. I have not met Ed, but I've talked with his, and it's very, very obvious he cares. I can't state this any better, so just re-read the quote.

quote:

---

Guys, while I'm sorry this has gotten so heated and it saddens us that we have polarized the community and some of our old friends, we are still advocating this method if the circumstances call for it. We still care about all of you and of course the animals and beg you to treat us in good faith and extend the benefit of doubt to us. We try a lot of things to benefit the gliders and share them with you to help you all decide and learn. You don't have to like everything we do.

We have even tried chlomipramine (with vet supervision) on gliders to keep them from over-grooming. We feel like we have done it all. Besides malnutrition, the one of the biggest problems we have are the side-effects of being alone as a glider.

So because this method can work in certain circumstances, and because we have "tried it all" we felt compelled to share our experience knowing full well it may be controversial.

For those of you who want to conduct a mature and logical conversation about it, I am up for it. But for now I will simply memorialize our position the best I can for you all to judge us as you may.

We can justify what we are doing on moral grounds. How? Because abusive is allowing a single glider to languish, get depressed and hurt itself. Especially ones who over-groom and self-mutilate. This method, in some circumstances, can solve that. That's not abusive. That's improving the quality of life for the animal.

Until you have seen our operation, met the animals and review our medical records, you don't have a grasp of the magnitude of the problem dealing with single gliders who are hurting. Until you have dealt with that first hand (and not just with one pet) your perspective is somewhat limited. Not until someone has the guts to share their methods and post them is your perspective enabled to grow based on others' experiences. No amount of holding and cuddling a single, who clearly needs more care than a colony animal, is going to truly solve the problem.

There are few facts I would like to point out as an answer to some of the more random comments and then a few thoughts on animal abuse.

First a few facts:

1. My wife Gail is the full-time director of LGRS. That means it's her full time job. I support that financially with my job and we also get donations. Someone said that we are handling too many gliders. Well, if Gail were not a full time volunteer with her life dedicated to the animals, that may be true. But she is 100% dedicated. It's what she does "for a living." I help out with correspondence and fund raising. Before I go to work, I care for the ranch animals and again when I come home. We also have volunteers come twice a week to help us with cage cleaning and food prep. Our goal is to rescue, rehabilitate and adopt out healthy pets. A few are in sanctuary care. So before you judge and say we are handling too many pets - understand the facts. The only reason we have "too many" or any other rescue has "too many" is because we can't keep up with the greed of the breeders who tell lies about gliders in order to sell them. It's all the lies that create a situation where people are at our doorstep surrendering animals. So if you want to complain about who has "too many" animals talk to the people who have a thousand or more breeding pairs in tiny cube cages nailed to the wall. Really.

2. Over the years, we have experimented with different introduction techniques. We have published those. So now we are publishing our experiences with OUR VERSION of the "wet" one. Our resolve to share our experiences with the community has not changed, even with this controversy. Look, we have developed and practice all of the known techniques. This one is an alternative if other techniques fail.

We have also published information on breeders' lies, ratios, diet and all kinds of things. When you publish things, you will always have people who sit back and judge you - people who make no contribution to the community whatsoever except to cause trouble. And of course there are people who also contribute but simply don't agree with us on certain things. That's OK. We care about them all and everyone deserves to voice their opinion, because this is America and this is a public forum.

3. We do not advocate spraying them down with a shower. We do not do that. Instead, for the four individuals we have tried this on, I have cupped them in my hand and rubbed the tepid water onto them gently.

4. We have gotten numerous gliders soaking wet as a result of hydrotherapy treatments for open wounds. Them being wet does not hurt them. Repeat: It does not hurt them.

5. The mouthwash thing. Not alcohol-based mouthwash. no-sting mouthwash does not hurt them. It just helps to mask scent for a few hours.

Now a few thoughts on animal abuse:

Animal abuse: Hitting, striking, whipping, jabbing, stabbing
Animal abuse: Neglecting their nutritional needs
Animal abuse: Neglecting their medical needs
Animal abuse: Constant forced breeding which shortens their life
Animal abuse: Keeping them in tiny cage with no toys or protection
Animal abuse: Allowing constant extreme temperatures
Animal abuse: Allowing ongoing painful suffering
Animal abuse: Forcing single gliders to live alone
Animal abuse: Shipping them when you have no clue if there is a plane delay, etc. if they will sit in a hot or cold plane belly and die
Animal abuse: Exhausting animals with chores and work that hurts them
Animal abuse: Tight pens and force-feeding to fatten them for commercial gain
Animal abuse: Forcing them to cannibalize each other with illegal feeds
Animal abuse: Allowing them to fight without separating them
Animal Abuse: Forcing them to fight for sport
Animal abuse: Leashes or other restraints for long periods unless by medical order
Animal Abuse: Allowing an animal to self-mutilate or over-groom and not doing anything about it

NOT Animal abuse: Getting them wet for a few hours in order to improve the quality of their lives.
NOT Animal abuse: Immobilizing them to cut their nails
NOT Animal abuse: Neutering them so they don't procreate
NOT Animal abuse: Culling out fighters into separate cages

So there is our list.


For and in our judgment, it's about quality of life. That's what we strive for. This is a controversial method, but in some circumstances, we advocate it in order to improve their quality of life.


Improving the quality of life of these animals is not abusive. Not doing something to improve their quality of life is what's abusive.



By the way, Dizzy has stopped pulling out her own fur. Think about that.

---

Congrats on Dizzy :) REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENED OR WHAT WE DISAGREE ON, WE SHOULD BE HAPPY FOR THIS GLIDER. I DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS WHAT YOU THINK OF METHODS. ONE GLIDER STOPPED SM-ING, AND THAT IS REASON FOR CELEBRATION.
But out of curiousity, have you talked to any vets about this method? Would you be willing to get some documented opinions? I, for one, would love to see what they say.

quote:

---

Here's my opinion If you dont like the method DONT USE IT.

If you don't like the diet don't use it!

If you don't like the cage Don't use it!

If you look at it this way all of these animals should be in the wild in their own colony's where they can take care of themselves but that can't happen just as it can't happen with every other domesticated animal.

gliders die from the stress of being taken to a new home, is that to say it is abuse to bring them to a new home. The plain and simple fact is the info is put out by a very reputable person who has had much personal success with it not someone new to gliders. they are ultimately your gliders and you need to do what you feel is right.

---

Exactly.

Personally, I don't really mind about getting them wet in WARM water for a SHORT amount of time. I feel like an hour or more is a bit long. Maybe a compromise can be made? And maybe instead of just letting them sit, dry them off with fleece or a washcloth or something - maybe even one that already smells like the other glider? I feel like we have a good idea on hand - distraction with an outside element, as well as scent masking - but I feel like a) absolute last resort, and b) it needs to be worked on.

But seriously, trying to take away their pride and joy? What the hell, guys.

It bothers me that the act that hydrotherapy is sometimes used in medical situations is used to explain why this is okay. That's just sort of a different situation, y'know? And Ed, I'm not referring specifically to your situation with the rescues here -- I'm primarily referring to those who use it simply to make their life easier (ie. no SMing gliders, but instead gliders who are perfectly happy with cagemates).

For the people that think the sugar glider and most wild animals run for cover and stay put when it rains, really need to get outside and spend some time in a forest or out in the wild. We have hiked and camped in the rain lots of times.We have got stuck hours from camp and had to hike back for cover and seen lots of animals out in the rain just doing there own thing.Some animals even enjoy the rain. Gliders have not been in captivity that long. It takes 1000's of generations for an animal to become "domesticated",sugar gliders are still pretty wild.
I this method extreme? Yes it is! Is it cruel? If you are sticking an animal in a cage and spraying them with water for FUN or punishment, yes it is cruel.If you use it as a tool to modify the behavior for the good of an animal, no its not, just like getting them neutered(which IS behavior modification).Should a noob to gliders use this method? NO they shouldn't. Should they see other people using this method in extreme situations?Well that's up for debate. I don't think noobs should see all these breeders posting all the pictures of all the animals they breed-"oh they are so cute, a wanna do that". I think breeding an animal that is going to be caged all of its life is cruel.Breeding sugar gliders in the USA DOES NOT help the species in any way,they are not endangered and there is NO shortage of gliders.

If you think that having your animal neutered isn't cruel and painful, you haven't see an animal being neutered. 1:50- 2:12 always makes me squirm and feel bad for the animal.I have seen neuters in person and it really makes me mad that the people STILL want to breed an animal for their pleasure knowing that they are going to be neutering the males

quote:

---

Originally posted by WintersSong

-- I'm primarily referring to those who use it simply to make their life easier (ie. no SMing gliders, but instead gliders who are perfectly happy with cagemates).

---

That's exactly what people do when they get them neutered!!! Eunuch anyone?

In all honesty, I also have strong opinions about most of the things mentioned here (No surprise).

However, I also recognize that at this point, no one is going to change anyone else's point of view. So - I think this might be time to agree to disagree and let all this rest.

Any further back and forth arguments just will serve to incite further argument! Since the respective sides in this debate have established their corners rather firmly, let's just let it all go, ok?

quote:

---

Originally posted by WintersSong

It bothers me that the act that hydrotherapy is sometimes used in medical situations is used to explain why this is okay. That's just sort of a different situation, y'know? And Ed, I'm not referring specifically to your situation with the rescues here -- I'm primarily referring to those who use it simply to make their life easier (ie. no SMing gliders, but instead gliders who are perfectly happy with cagemates).

---

[kind of answering other comments too but wanted to address WinterSong's post]

Yes the hydrotherapy I mentioned was in fact in a different context so it is fair for you to draw that distinction. My motivation in mentioning my (that is the gliders') experiences with it was to establish that we have not observed any ill effects as a result of all of them getting wet from the hydrotherapy. Some glider's fur is more resistant to water than others we have found. So some of them get soaked and some don't. Admittedly, when holding them to get them wet by working the water into their fur, the fur of the four we have tried this "method" on did not instantly get wet. (I mentioned before I did not spray them, but held them with a trickle of water I worked in with my fingers).

I also do not advocate the use of this method for the "convenience" of simply combining cages of multiple animals or multiple colonies. In fact our experience with larger (incoming) colonies is they have a tendency to establish a pecking order and some get bitten and kicked out. That's what happened to Ginger, Padme, Amelia, Buttercup, etc. - all from colonies of seven or more. Ironically, it is those animals from larger colonies who afterward are culled out and start over-grooming who are candidates for this method.

I mentioned over on GC that if we in fact find out later that the method backfires and that the two couples who were four singles all of the sudden start to hurt each other -- I will humbly withdraw my condoning this method in certain circumstances and admit that I am wrong.

Hey, if I have the guts to publish these observations - for the good of the glider community so we can all learn - then I certainly have the guts to admit I was wrong.

But the gliders seem to be doing fine. Dizzy has laid off of her constant over-grooming and even Ginger - who used to just run and hide as a single - is now approaching me for treats I used to just leave outside her nesting box. Let's let the evidence pour in.

Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary is in Van Alstyne TX. If you want to come see us and adopt gliders or if you just want to come "audit" us you are free to do so. Come. Volunteer. participate. We are an open book

OK lets not get off topic.

For those that want to think this is not ABUSE

BUT IN MY OPINION IT IS AND IN THE STATES EYE'S OF ANIMAL CRUELTY ITS ANIMAL ABUSE.

I have listed your bad choice and the reaction or repercussion what the animals go through and I speak on the behalf of the animal.

your bad choice)
~you make The Sugar Glider fearful of you as the owner by soaking them in any water not matter the temp.


(the reaction)
(in nature they stay inside hollowed out tree's to stay dry and not get wet on rainy days, You also have to remember they are not from the US naturally either, Sugar gliders can be found all throughout the northern and eastern parts of mainland Australia, along with the surrounding islands of Tasmania, Papua New Guinea, and Indonesia.)


(your bad choice)
~You Change there BODY TEMP almost immediately when you put any water on them and leaving them like that for any amount of time


(the reaction)
(which can cause respiratory infection, hypothermia, pneumonia, Nervous system shut down. Not only that but how many of you are aware that joey's under 6months of age can not make enough a good body temp on there own to survive. If you get a pregnant female wet your putting her at risk of water getting insider her pouch where the joey is and the result would be drowning of the joey before he/she has a chance at life. You also are putting the females in danger of getting a pouch infection and as we Sugar Glider owner's know Vet bills are very high and you want to avoid getting your pet you love so dearly sick)


(your bad choice)
~Putting several Sugar Glider's in a small cage that all ready had ill feeling towards one another and having a heater in the room


(the reaction)
(Common sense wise why do they not attack each other you ask when they are soaking wet and in Fear of you spraying them down with a shower head more?
Because their real animal instinct kicks in and says if you want to serve just set in a corner closest to heat and hope to get dry and live through this cold freezing moment. If you notice when there fur is wet it doesn't have a second coat to keep them warm. Remember they don't shed there hair for a reason)



(your bad choice)
~You wonder why they are willing to go inside of a dry pouch a hour after you soak them for any amount of time?


(the reaction)
(Because the're bodies are in such state of shock all they can think about is getting warm and hopefully drying off or they may feel on the verge of death since any small amount of stress can cause one of these EXOTIC animals to die from heart failure or stroke.)


(your bad choice)
~Causing them stress is away of going around the long steps of commitment
and it works because I don't care

(the reaction)
(Sugar Glider's very emotional beings. You need to always think of them as a small child.
They can love you, cherish you, and put all their faith in you just like a child does.
If you stress them into having to except fear to be there guidance in life as they are in your care. Then you don't belong to be a Sugar Glider owner.
They take lots of very tiny baby steps to get them to do introduction or just to bond with you as a loving pet.
If you feel that the weeks to months it can take to get a good introduction to be successful then this animal does not deserve you and you don't deserve them to be in your home or life.

They never asked to be put inside of a cage and kept as a pet.)




A open eye on a correct introduction
STEP ONE
*set two cages side by side 12inches apart for 2-3 weeks

STEP TWO
*On the Third week of them being side by side swap their pouches every night for about 2-3 more weeks

STEP THREE
*Wear two bonding pouches or get a double sided sissy pouch. Put one Glider in one pouch from cage "A" and put the other glider from cage "B"
wear them both for at least 2-3 hours a day for 1-2 weeks, while continuing to do pouch swapping every night with the cages still side by side

STEP FOUR
*It's time find a neutral grounds area (meaning a fresh new clean scent free tent or bathroom. Where no glider's have been for play time before)

STEP FIVE
*After finding or buying a neutral play time area for the gliders. Lay a large piece of fleece down and put lots of toys and pouches laying in the tent or bathroom. Have treats on hand like yogurt drops or meal worms.

STEP SIX
*Bring both glider's to neutral play area that is set up. Open both pouches have the lights on low not to bright. Wait for them to come out or bribe them with treats. Never pull them out or force them to come out. On their terms only.

STEP SEVEN
*After they come out of the pouches in the neutral play area. let them explore till they find one another. Watch there body language. If you see only glider put their body in the shape of a Ball (Balled Up) and crabbing at the other glider, then you know your are doing introduction to soon. At this point you would want to separate them and start back at pouch swapping. If Both glider's are not showing signs of fighting or disliking one another. They are just sniffing, grooming, rubbing there heads on each other or if they both run into a pouch together the best thing to do is set quietly and watch and see what happens. Do intro for at least 30 minutes the first time and try to make it longer every time you do intro if it's a success with no fighting. Repeat this step at least for 3-7 days before putting them into the same cage.

STEP EIGHT
*Putting them in the same cage after the last play time introduction if there is still no fighting going on.
Clean the cage (whip the cage down and get rid of all scent) you are putting them into together.
Put Fresh clean cage set and at least 3-4 fresh clean pouches inside the cage. This will help keep the neutral ground with them and so they can scent the cage together.

STEP NINE
*Have the cage set in a room where you can hear them clearly so if you hear any sounds through the night you can wake up an go check on them if they are fighting or chasing one another separate them. The move in may have been to soon for them or the cage may have not had all the scent gone. Then the next night start back at doing play time with both of them but make sure to have a long play time so you can see there body language and make sure they are ready for the last step...


STEP TEN
*If have done all nine steps above and have had no success. Then the best thing to do is take a HUGE STEP BACK and remove both cages from the same room put them in opposite rooms keep them like that for about 3-4weeks. Glider's depend on scent when it comes to excepting one another as apart of their colony. When they are away from one another. They will forget about who they just met.

STEP ELEVEN
*After finished step Ten then it's time to put both cages side by side again and start at step one and try to take it slower, because the first time you must have went to fast or skipped a step you didn't notice. Sometimes it takes 4-6 try's if you have really fussy gliders or NO PATIENTS.

Most of the time it's human patients that get in the way.

But if you have done all these steps at least 4-7 times and it's the same out come then these gliders are not meant to be colony friends and it's time to find them individual friends.




My personal experience
~I have had to do introduction with my pair a least 5 times until the one that was having the ill feelings decided she really needed a friend.

~When getting a glider from USDA breeder or from a local jo off craigslist. You as the pet owner have to realize each gliders needs before getting them..

(Example)

*if your taking in a glider that is off Craigslist that is either a glider they couldn't take care of, so they're re-homing it that is a rescue in a way. Because you don'st know the real treatment they received from there prior owner and introduction could take longer because they could all ready be in loads of fear, shock, depression, ill, broken leg, on the verge of death, bad diet, starved, human aggression, etc....
There temperament will be unknowing until you get to know them but in any case a rescue glider will always take a little longer to bond with or even get them to except a cage mate


*As for getting a glider from a USDA Breeder, you will know first hand what care they were under and know what there lineage is as well as there temperament, health, diet, and most likely would be better to get a pair from a breeder so you don't have to worry about introduction so much.

*Also if you introduce joeys at a young age 12weeks oop or 24weeks oop intro will always an most likely be easier then introducing a older glider to another older glider or a older glider to a younger glider can be difficult I have experienced.

*But always and will always be the wrong, inhumane, abuse, cruelty, heartless, non-pet lover way is the Wet Introduction.
*If you don't care about animals well being or the fact of all the money you are putting out to this animal just to own one (hundred to thousand) or if you think your going to make MONEY off these animals in all means your head is NOT in the right place to own a Sugar Glider.

http://www.sugarglider.com/gliderpedia/index.asp?IntroducingNewGliders we have the correct way to do intros right here and im always giving it to people.

CozyFlowers:I'm sure that LuckyGlider is very aware of the steps of introductions no one on this forum is ignorant enough to use this as the first means of introductions, BUT it doesn't always work! I doubt this method was the first time he tried to introduce them. And what's more cruel? Using this or letting them suffer depression and overgrooming from being alone? Common sense. Also warm water was used. It's not like he turned icy cold water on them! Don't come onto ths forum for the sole purpose of complaining about LG. Go back to wherever you came from and complain there.

And so you know: I'm not defending him or this method because it's one I use. I have never used it and I won't. But when running a rescue with that many suggies sometimes I can see how it might be necessary.

Of course Ed is aware of how to do intros and I even posted the link that he shares. I'm just copying and pasting...this is ALL Ed's words, Ed's post:

This is the third edition of the LGRS Sugar Glider Introductions Primer which got its start after we gained enough experience doing introductions at the rescue that it made sense to publish it for newcomers.

There are numerous factors to take into consideration when contemplating the introduction and joining together of strange sugar gliders. There are four important concepts I will address first, which act as a theme for the Top Twelve Tips that follow:

A. Correct Expectations

B. Your Safety

C. Suggie Safety & Welfare

D. Sugar Glider Territorial Dynamics

E. Top ten Tips

A. Correct Expectations
Don't get your hopes up too far. Introductions between strange sugar gliders fail quite often and it can be dangerous for small gliders and especially joeys. We do introductions dozens and dozens of times each year to join rescues and to help local families (under our supervision). Introductions can end in heartbreak, so you have to take advantage of all the tips that are out there. Talk to people who do it all the time. Advice from someone who has done it once successfully unfortunately does not prepare you for the worst.

B. Your Safety
I know they look and act all cute and cuddly, but that single, innocent little sugar glider in your pocket can turn into a real terror if he or she feels compelled to fight or defend itself against another sugar glider. For this reason, it is important that you arm yourself with gloves or wrap fleece around your hands so if you have to pull them apart, you will not be bitten really hard. A sugar glider bite that goes down to the tendon sheath level can cause a virulent infection that will put you in the hospital.

I am not talking about the tiny nips you get when you get bitten by mistake when you are feeding a treat. I am talking about them sinking their sharp lower teeth a good half inch into your finger all the way down to the bone.

They do not do this to you because they want to hurt you, but usually just because if they are in a fight with another glider, they bite wildly and blindly because they are fighting for their lives sometimes.

It is important to understand that you must prepare for separating two (or more) fighting sugar gliders and that the separation must happen immediately, without hesitation. That's why you need to have gloves on. If you are the type of person that freaks out easily and will flake out at the sight of fighting, you better get someone in the room who has the guts to do this at a moment's notice or else your weakness could spell death for one or more animals.

C. Suggie Safety & Welfare
Sugar Gliders will fight to the death if they decide they don't like each other for whatever reason. Maybe a snit starts and one gets defensive and does a lunge and that is returned by a small bite. Then it may escalate into a flying fur ball of death. I am not joking around here. When sugar gliders decide they do not like each other, or if one feels compelled to defend its territory, they will fight to the death and unfortunately, that takes only seconds. Some may emerge from a fight badly cut up or maimed but it can be ugly.

This means you must be very diligent and keep vigil when you introduce gliders to one another. Do it at night when you are in for the evening and with the idea that you will have to camp out next to their cage to make sure a tentative friendship lasts all night.

Based on our experience with dozens of both successful and failed introductions, the "first impression" is what counts. If two suggies sniff at each other and start kissing and grooming one another, there's a 90% chance they are going to make it as cage mates. But if two suggies sniff at each other and just start fighting, there's a 90% chance they will do that over and over each time you try.

If you "think" they are getting along and then you just leave them together for the night and walk away, you could be signing the death warrant for one or both of them. You MUST stay with them and stand vigil and be ready to take them apart if they decide to fight. If they end up in the same pouch or nesting box together, that is a good sign, but you should put the cage next to your bed that night and sleep with one eye open, with gloves at the ready in case you have to pull them apart if they start fighting.

Another aspect of the Suggies' safety and welfare deals with the general health of the gliders. Before you "introduce" a new glider or gliders to an existing colony, do a 30-day quarantine of the new ones in their own cage. It's a good idea to do this and get a wellness check two weeks into the quarantine period or at the end. Certain parasites may be in incubation when you get a glider so it's best to wait a full 30 days for that reason.

Size and age also figure in to the Suggies' safety and welfare. If the existing glider or gliders are BIG compared to the new one - don't put them together yet because the big ones may easily kill the little one if they reject her. Wait till the new one(s) catch up size-wise.

This is ESPECIALLY important for joeys. Do NOT do introductions where there are young joeys at risk. It takes no time whatsoever for an adult glider to kill a teeny-weenie glider. The adult can easily pierce the skull of a joey if it is on a territorial rampage. Simply put... Put some FAT on those babies and wait until neuter age - 4.5 months, get them neutered, let them recover THEN attempt the intro. They will be sub-adult at that point, not all hopped-up on testosterone, and much more likely to survive an attack that you can break up.

D. Sugar Glider Territorial Dynamics
Generally speaking, it is easier to introduce two lone gliders to one another because they are lonely and crave interaction with a member of their own species. That is no guarantee; however. It does not matter if you are pairing two females, two males or a male and a female. Neutering of the males ahead of time and waiting a few weeks for the testosterone levels to go down is a good idea.

The dynamic is greatly simplified if there are only two. Why? Because the lone glider is not an "alpha" of a colony and has no one else to defend but itself.

Try putting one in one hand and one in the other so you can hold on to them and comfort them. Slowly bring them together and see what the reaction is. If they don't start fighting, you can put them down on a fleece and see if they get along. But be ready to pull them apart.

It is OK if hissing and crabbing and a little lunging goes on, just listen for "screaming" which is like a high-pitched sound on top of frantic crabbing. That's real fighting. If they break each others' skin you must watch them closely because if it gets infected, that may trigger self mutilation.

If they make each other bleed, call your vet. But if you are diligent you can pull them away from each other hopefully before any real damage is done. Scrapes and cuts have a tendency to be over-groomed which can lead to self-mutilation, so you should have an e-collar on hand in case it is needed before you go to the vet.

If you introduce them in a tent bring them together if the total is four or less. Any more and it might be too hard to handle them all if they start fighting. I say this assuming you will be in the tent with them. If you are in the tent with them you can easily separate them if there is a fight. If you don't use a tent, you can try a bathroom. Put fleece on the counters.

You can also try "supervised visitation" by putting them in a (Ventilated) pouch together but with your hand in there. you can take your hand out when they sleep, but keep it in when they are awake.

The dynamics of an existing colony are MUCH different. Here, an existing alpha male or female, especially if sexually mature, will want to defend its turf and will have a tendency to attack any other sugar glider that is not already imprinted with the colony's native scent. Usually, the alpha male or alpha female emerges as the defender and will make a bee-line for the intruder and just start fighting.

It is rare that a single glider being introduced to an existing colony is accepted. It is more common that the single "intruder" is attacked.

FOR THIS REASON YOU SHOULD HAVE TWO CAGES (you will already have two if you quarantine) in case they need to be kept separate. THIS MEANS YOU ARE TAKING ON A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY IN ACQUIRING ANOTHER GLIDER BECAUSE... he or she may end up in a separate cage.

If you can't deal with that, then don't even try it. It's not the animal's fault that it does not work out so you have to have a big enough heart to care for two cages worth of animals now instead of dumping the new one.

E. Top Twelve Introduction Tips
Here are ten related tips dealing with introductions you should remember:

1. Quarantine first. It's also good idea to take all animals to the vet for a check-up (two weeks after you get them so the incubation period for certain parasites has passed). And be prepared to take them to a vet in a hurry if/when they start biting each other and they cause open wounds.

2. Make sure the females are NOT pregnant. Introductions, especially failed ones, may trigger enough stress for her to destroy her babies. Talk to your vet about the quarantine period.

3. "Pick on someone your own size." The new ones must be the same size as the existing alpha male. They have to be able to defend themselves long enough for you to separate them. If you throw someone else's babies in there, your established gliders could kill them in a snap.

4. Males should be neutered before introductions if they are old enough (4.5 months) and give them a few weeks to recover and normalize. It's easier to do "strange" introductions with neutered males. The less testosterone the better.

5. When sugar gliders attack and fight, they do so blindly and fearlessly. They will roll up into a ball and bite anything they can get their teeth on. During introductions, wear gloves. If you get bit deeply on the finger, an injection of bacteria into the tendon sheath can land you in the hospital. When fighting they are like fed "Gremlins" after midnight and go from angels to devils instantly. Believe it.

6. The introduction "environment" must be an open, glider-safe neutral space OUTSIDE OF THE CAGE. Do NOT just plop gliders in the same cage to see what happens. You must be able to maneuver in and amongst them and you cannot have a tiny door as an obstacle. A bathroom is perfect for this purpose and inside the shower stall (door closed) or in the bathtub (drain closed) is a perfect space.

7. Give them something to snuggle in together but not a tight space like a pouch. Instead you can use handfuls of fleece because it is easier to pull them apart if they start to fight that way.

8. No amount of swapping bedding, swapping cages, putting cages close together incrementally is going to change the fate of a mean glider that just hates other gliders. Don't get yourself all worked up into fervid hope for a whole month of this preparation. It only takes a few minutes to figure out if there is going to be aggression so don't waste a whole month to find something out that will only take a few minutes. Bite the bullet and put them together. If they don't get along, you can REVERT to the whole incremental cage closeness, swapping bedding thing. That's a fallback, Hail Mary plan, not the standard procedure.

If they fight, separate them immediately.Obviously, in order to first quarantine them, you will need a second cage anyway. Have enough room in your heart to take them as pets separately if the union fails. That is a distinct possibility.

9. Introducing females to an adult male is a lot easier than introducing another male, neutered or not. Even adult males and females will fight each other when introduced, but he is less likely to fight with a female then a male. Males can get along, but you'd do very well to neuter them first. This is a warning. If the established male is neutered it is better. It takes only 4 to 5 months for established males to assert their sense of territory as they grow up. Neutered ones will also fight, but the less testosterone the better.

10. Sleepy Introduction Warning. It's easier to introduce someone new if they are sleeping or sleepy. You can put them in a pouch and have your hand at the ready. They will wake up smelling a combination of their own scent and the scent of the "other." However, you must now let them play out in the open and get a load of each other while they are wide awake. Do not assume they are OK with each other just because they slept in the same spot. This is a warning.

11. Keep food away at first. Some gliders are really territorial about their food - especially around strangers. Wait long enough for them to show you they are getting along before food is introduced as a variable.

12. If a female is in estrous, it's better to delay introductions. You'll know if she is because the male(s) will be trying to mount her and bother her, neutered or not. And if she keeps chasing him or them away in the standard ritual, that's not a time when introducing strange gliders is a good idea.

If you want to talk about this in more detail before attempting to try an introduction, please contact Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary on 877-504-5145

CozyFlowers why don't you post the where you are getting all this information.

quote:

---

*As for getting a glider from a USDA Breeder, you will know first hand what care they were under and know what there lineage is as well as there temperament, health, diet, and most likely would be better to get a pair from a breeder so you don't have to worry about introduction so much.

---

That's just ridiculous and only something a breeder would say.

quote:

---

I have listed your bad choice and the reaction or repercussion what the animals go through and I speak on the behalf of the animal.

---

Let me speak on the behalf of the animal- " I don't want to be carried around in a pouch all day,I dont want to be carried around in a pouch at all.I don't want to travel in the car for days to go to a hotel with 100 other gliders. I don't want to go to the vets office and get my nuts yanked out. I don't want to mate and have more babies that cant play in the trees and are stuck in a cage for the rest of their life.I don't want to live 12 years in a 5 foot cage. I don't want to be put in your Bra all day because its so cute(I'm sure some of the husbands feel the same way).I don't want to be yanked from my family because you can sell me".

Ok, not sure if I should even participate in what seems to be a never ending argument. But since everyone is so worried about noobs thinking this is the best way to introduce gliders, I thought it'd be wise to put your minds at east.

1) very few animals look cute wet. And the videos are pitiful.

2) as a responsible pet owner, I would try every other method first before trying something so drastic

3) as I'm not a breeder or a rescuer (sp?) I cannot truly emphathise with the situation, but I can immagine the possible situation where (when all else fails and the health/life of the glider is at risk otherwise) that they can feel like this is a good/safe (when done correctly) method

Yes, I have gotte Fritz wet twice. Both for grooming reasons. The 1st time was just after I got him & he wasn't keeping himself clean. The 2nd time was due to a honey accident & I didn't want him to over groom himself to get the sticky mess off of his fur.

In BOTH instances, I used warm water & gently scooped the water onto him as I held him in my hand. Then I immediately took a clean, soft towel & removed most of the moisture from his fur. I left a bit to intice him to groom himself as a training method. Did he like it? Heck no! Did it hurt our relationship in any way? Nope, he still LOVES out of cage time & play time.

I hate it when people snip ears/tails/etc (except if it's for a health reason) or hit/kick/etc their animals (pet or otherwise). To me keeping an active dog alone on a chain for the most of the time is neglegence. To me keeping an animal in filthy conditions is abuse. To me snipping off body parts for 'beauty' reasons is horrid. To me starving an animal is abuse. And I could go on (sadly).

What I don't consider abuse (as someone who has loved animals all of her life and considered becoming a vet) is taking drastic measures in drastic times. Will we one day discover that this method is truly unhealthy & should be labeled abuse? Maybe. I don't know. But should we bash respectable (at least that's what I'm gathering, too new to really know) breeders/rescues for attempting to step in to save the life of an animal after trying everything else?

I hope that this actually dispells this argument until a definite yes or no can be brought to air. But at this rate I think people are just repeating what they've said 3 pages back.

Why don't we focus this energy on making our own gliders happier? Or striving to spread good & useful information to those who don't know? Or contacting our governmental represenatives (or even PETA type groups) about the mill breeders and brokers? Or even thinking of another way to introduce sugar gliders that might have a better effect than the traditional methods so people don't feel like they have to consider it in rare and almost hopeless cases?

I am sad to say that I'm a but aghast at the behavior of what I've come to consider respectable members of this community in this thread. Hopefully we all can put this behind us and use this energy for better things than creating a lot of negativity.

i think its animal abuse to give cats baths but people still do it and most cats hate water or getting soaked like that. and they clean themselves so no need for that. and they look so sad with their fur all wet.

just about every animal with fur looks sad when their wet so yall really need to get over yourselves. Whats done is done cant nobody change it, this has really gotten to be a very long post of people saying the same thing over and over and over

But what about the cats that love to swim? Yes, there is such thing & it's not just one breed.

i said most cats since i know there are cats who dont mind water. but that goes for every animal there will always be some animal that isnt like the rest.

** Catman **

I got all my introduction information from many place's from people that knew first hand on there own personal experience.
the sites I did research on are;

Glidercentral.net
Laurie's Glider Gazette

Random people I have met across the USA that have owned sugar gliders for years that have experience

My USDA Breeder I got one of my sugar gliders from
The Pet shop I bought my other glider from
The person I got my Rescued glider from off CL

Every thing is from what I learned and have had first hand experience in with introduction with the glider's I own as pets.

I don't breed and would never breed because there is to many people breeding glider's now days and are making the lineage to unknown and inbreed.

I am a glider owner going on my third year...

I still learn new stuff daily because it seems that the list of research never ends with sugar gliders.

That and I help many people learn about this animal and how it's not ok to just buy one on a whim because they are cute... There is so much more to owning a glider...

They are a living animal and they have feelings and they don't have the option to speak up and tell there owner to buzz off when they are doing something that hurts them or scares the heck out of them....


I only put the steps I have experienced on the intro's I have done and promote that people learn patients and try a lot harder to focus on what the animal is telling them by body language.

As for a Rescue doing this I think it is best that they keep it to them selfs an not tell NEW GLIDER OWNER"S THIS IS something to do for introduction. Many people will say oh I have done all those steps but in reality they probably didn't and just want a easy way out...

But all I can do is give my advice either you can use it or not.

Your glider is the only one that doesn't get a choice in the end of your decision....

I am now hoping congress passes the law to make them illegal because of folks that obviously don't care about the well being of this animal and most likely any animal sorry if none of you like that but that is the only way to put a stop to something like this...

You all just sadden me if you think or do the Wet introduction and that is all I can say.....

I weep for your glider's

Let me start by saying I'm NOT out to "get" anyone. Tho I am out to try and get people to understand that this wet method has more risks to it then benefits. There are medical and mental risks to the gliders that are having to endure this procedure. I've now heard over and over again that the reason this is being done is because the gliders involved are sm-ers and this method will get them into a cage with another glider thereby stopping the sm behavior. sounds great doesn't it? If it works this well in theory it could be a God send. As a rescuer myself I understand the issues that led to the method being tried. However, this method causes undue stress on the gliders which can cause many health issues, won't list them again as Dancing has already done a great job of that in a prior post on this thread, and the method may be causing mental stress as well. So I asked if by chance was this method being used under the supervision of a vet? That question ws never answered. Here's was my reason for asking. If it ws being done with a vets knowledge then at least the gliders involved would also have a vet that knew whay they may be ill and what to do to help them. If no vet is involved then I feel the health risks are just too great. So simply put I have no issue with ED and Gail. I feel that they have done very good by gliders for years and their experience shouldn't just be thrown away. Now understand me clearly if I sign any petition at all it will ONLY be a petition that lists the reasons we feel this method shouldn't be used asking that they not use this method. That's it! Nothing more nothing less. Do I want a good experienced rescue closed? NO! We all make mistakes in life. I'm asking that we learn from them and not repeat them.

Now onto the insinuation that I'm out to cause trouble. I'd hope my behavior and reputation speak for themselves. With any post I have made I have never attacked anyone. I have however repeated that I don't condone the method and will never reccommend it's use. I have also pointed out that there are major reasons that ths method can lead to health or mental issues for the gliders enduring it. But I have attacked no one because that is just not who I am or what I am about.

Lastly, I have also seen it posted that those who oppose this method are hiding. Look at my signature my website is linked and my phone number is listed there. I am certainly not hiding from anyone.

In closing I want to repeat I am not against the people just the method.